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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Dr Bronners, MD
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This is pretty interesting, in regards to newborn immune systems.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/14/health/ti ... -children/

(The headline is kind of stupid, since diapers are pretty much never mentioned in there, except as being where they collected the baby poop to analyze for microbes.)

Quote:
During vaginal delivery, for example, babies are baptized to the world of bacteria, viruses and other pathogens as they pass through the birth canal; birth is, in a sense, their first immunization against the bugs they are likely to encounter in their new environment as their still developing immune systems get to work taking stock of the microbes. Babies pick up the microbial content of their mother's gut.

Over time, the babies' immune systems start to distinguish between friend and foe in the microbial world, and launch attacks on potentially harmful bugs while leaving beneficial ones, like those that live in the gut, alone.

Cesarean section, however, bypasses this immunizing opportunity, and may leave newborns more vulnerable to certain infections since their immune systems are still catching up. In the study, infants born by C-section had fewer colonies of Escherichia and Shigella bacteria than those born vaginally.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:47 pm 
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thanks for posting that. i actually saw a summary of the article on Perez Hilton and i thought it was really interesting and wanted to share but he didnt have a source link (that i could find) and i was like "uhhh i probably shouldnt post a blurb from Perez Hilton" hahahaha

your link is the full article.
it's definitely interesting info to have when people are choosing how to deliver and whether or not to breast feed. i mean obviously soemtimes you dont have a choice but if you do this is great info.

ive been wondering about the whole breast feeding/immune system thing a lot lately as my mom was not able to breast feed either kid she had so we were both fed formula. i have an absolute shiitake immune system. i catch every damn cold that goes around and it always lasts FOREVER. my husband was breast fed and NEVER EVER gets sick EVER. seriously if he has a cold it is like a real weak version of a cold and it's gone like the next day.
obviously im sure 100 million other factors could contribute to the difference but it's interesting to read about.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Quote:
ive been wondering about the whole breast feeding/immune system thing a lot lately as my mom was not able to breast feed either kid she had so we were both fed formula. i have an absolute shiitake immune system. i catch every damn cold that goes around and it always lasts FOREVER. my husband was breast fed and NEVER EVER gets sick EVER. seriously if he has a cold it is like a real weak version of a cold and it's gone like the next day.


To give another data point. I was an emergency c-section, and my mom couldn't breastfeed me for long because she had to go on meds that were not safe while breastfeeding. As an adult, I have a great immune system, rarely get sick, and when I do I'm over it fast. I would find it hard to believe that by the time we're adults we haven't had time to play catch up and end up with whatever immune system we're going to get.

I'm very pro-breastfeeding for those who can. But I also know that there are times we can't, and there is just enough crepe to feel guilty about in motherhood and wondering if we are dooming our children to lifelong immune system problems should not be one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:12 pm 
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no i know what you're saying. it was just sort of an aside. things that run through my brain. im sure there 8 million things that contribute to these sort of things. my brother as far as i know (also formula fed) has a better immune system than me.

and i was absolutely in no way trying to say EVERYONE should breast feed.
i do think it's an interesting article to keep in mind when making a decision whether to try breast feeding or not. in the end some people may try and it may not work out for whatever reason.
everyone's life and body are different!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Yeah, there are all kinds of things that could lead to it. And they do some neat things with, uh, fecal matter transplants that can improve people's overall health.

I wasn't trying to imply that natural births and breastfeeding are great and if you don't do it you're a bad person, because I know there are all kinds of situations (but I do think that scheduling a C-section for the sake of convenience is kind of silly), but it's interesting to see some science being applied. That article also says (or implies) that this is some early-days science and there is more to research before we can say anything definitively, so who knows?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:43 pm 
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I know no one was trying to imply that everyone should breastfeed or c-sections are bad or anything. It's just my personal mission to eradicate needless mommy guilt wherever I find it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:20 am 
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Jezebel has a short rant about people who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Not much information, but amusingly written in their usual "f_ you" style:
http://jezebel.com/vaccines/

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:25 am 
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I'm another formula-fed baby who has had a fairly good immune system. All growing up I rarely got sick, and I never had the flu, just colds/coughs. (Never had an ear infection either.)

My breastfed children - well, the younger one it's too soon to know - but GooGoo gets colds fairly often. I'm pro-breastfeeding but I don't think it is the cure-all for all ills and if you can't do it for whatever reason, you can't - and that's fine. :-) We all just have to do our best with whatever we have.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:55 pm 
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I've been without a computer/my ppk password for a couple of weeks traveling, so I'm a little late to the party.. but I wanted to comment on a few things:

- I've heard the idea behind giving the first Hep B shot at the hospital at birth is that the population at highest risk for Hep B is the same group that isn't likely to come back for regular vaccination appointments, and that's the main reason for doing it then. We didn't have hep B at birth because we had a home birth, and when we went to our 48 hour ped checkup they just said to do the first one at 2 or 4 months (I don't remember which) so that's what we did. We are otherwise on a totally normal schedule.

- With the eye goop, yes I think it's mostly for gonorrhea, but I think the idea behind strongly encouraging it and obfuscating the purpose is that people aren't all that great at judging their own risk level. Personally, we were given the goop and allowed to administer it, or not, by our midwife. I elected to use it. I was 99.9999% certain that I didn't have the infection, but my reasoning was, I know enough people who think (or have thought) that they are/were in happily monogamous relationships, but who weren't....that I wouldn't bet my baby's eyesight on the assumption that my husband didn't have any extracurricular fun times. To me the hippy-indicated downsides of eye goop (blurry vision affecting bonding?) were not very convincing. We delayed it for half an hour or so, but it was easy and quick to do and didn't seem to have any ill effects.

- re HIV testing: I don't know what the state laws on this are. At the military hospital I was tested with first trimester bloodwork and was informed of it, and given a consent form that happened to also consent to release the results to lab workers (they explained to me that this was eg if the phlebotomist managed to stick him/her self with the needle). I consented to the HIV test, which I probably would not have done had I not been DAMNED sure of the results being negative, but made a note that I did not categorically consent to releasing the results. I would rather have been asked that anew had there actually been a problem and approved the release to individual people, rather than categorically - I'm not a monster, I know phlebotomy is probably stressful work, but I didn't understand giving blanket approval to giving all the lab workers at the hospital my HIV test results.

The worst-case-scenario planner in me would advise that anyone who has the slightest uncertainty about HIV status get anonymously tested beforehand. I just don't get the impression that privacy is always as respected when it comes to maternity care.

As far as other groups of people who get HIV tested against their will and possibly without consent, I know my husband is forced to be tested for this and many, many other things as part of his job (military), but I suppose that's basically voluntarily joined so there is, possibly, some implied consent? But he doesn't get a lot of medical privacy in general. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:22 am 
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I'm 28 weeks and phoned for my whooping cough jab. Yesterday the front desk lady had said she would talk to the nurse to see if they had any in stock and to phone back today because they were pretty much un-booked for the day and could totally do me if they had the vaccine on-hand.

So I phone today and get put on hold. Then the nurse gets on and asks how far along I am and gives me this spiel about how it's fine to get them up until a month after you've had the baby (not according to the pamphlet they gave me), but that it's best to get it before you pop so the antibodies will be there for the baby straight away, especially if you're breastfeeding. She basically said it was still a bit early in my pregnancy (contrary to the pamphlet, which says 28-32 weeks is ideal and after 38 weeks, your baby might not get the benefits) and to phone back later in my pregnancy.

Translation: they do not have the vaccine in stock.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:47 pm 
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i wonder how much it actually matters when you get it since the tdap/dtap/whatever it's called is usually a routine baby vaccine anyways (over here anyways).

as in yeah i agree i think they were out ;-)

i know when we had our "family planning" meeting with the OB she told us that both parents should get the tdap vaccine and i could get it if i was pregnant.
i had actually gotten a tetanus shot the previous year so i just called my dr to ask if it was the one that included pertussis (it was) and after that i was considered covered.
i havent heard about it since.

i guess it's beneficial to get it when pregnant so you can pass the antibodies on but they will get the vaccine later anyways if you are following a regular vaccine sched???

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:57 pm 
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If you follow a normal vaccination schedule, a baby wouldn't get the first dose of DTaP until 2 months, leaving a window where they are at risk. I believe the vaccine only provides partial immunity as well, even once all the doses have been given, so it's helpful to have those in closest contact to the baby immunized for added protection.

As an aside: I always thought the reason for vaccinating yourself (and others) was to keep from passing the actual disease on to your baby, rather than passing on antibodies? I'm not sure how that works and I may be using incorrect reasoning. But pertussis can look a lot like a normal cold in healthy adults, so often you don't know if you've exposed your baby until later.

I did it specifically because Austin has a large population of non-vaxers and experiences pertussis outbreaks pretty frequently.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Vaccinating pregnant women with TdaP is also about passing on antibodies. From the CDC:

Quote:
Tdap may be administered any time during pregnancy, but vaccination during the third trimester would provide the highest concentration of maternal antibodies to be transferred closer to birth (4). After receipt of Tdap, a minimum of 2 weeks is required to mount a maximal immune response to the vaccine antigens (32,33). Active transport of maternal immunoglobulin G does not substantially take place before 30 weeks of gestation (34). One study of pregnant women who received Tdap within the prior 2 years noted that maternal antibodies waned quickly; even women immunized during the first or second trimester had low levels of antibodies at term (4). Therefore, to optimize the concentration of vaccine-specific antipertussis antibodies transported from mother to infant, ACIP concluded that pregnant women should be vaccinated with Tdap during the third trimester.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:40 pm 
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The pamphlet they gave me says there has been a huge outbreak in whooping cough since 2011 (accompanied by a a graph showing the cases increasing exponentially). This was a graph for Scotland, but the midwives and the nurse both said it's way worse in England. I guess the deal is that between being born and getting the first round of jabs at 8 weeks is a vulnerable period for the baby and being vaccinated during pregnancy/the antibodies delivered from the mom through the womb can provide protection (and more protection is provided form breastfeeding after birth) during those 8 weeks. So that seems to be the deal with why they are vaccinating here. It's not a live vaccine, either, so it's relatively low-risk (and according to my midwives, they've done enough preggo studies and it's been officially approved as safe during pregnancy now).

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Cool, thanks helbury! Glad to find out for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:47 am 
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I just came across this pretty informative graphic:

Image

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherp ... our-world/

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Y'know, I am super pro-vaccinating. But I was doing a little poking about to see how long the Hep B vaccine is effective for and while they think adults who are vaccinated might be immune for 20+ years, kids who begin the series before 6 months are probably not fully covered past 15. So why the hell did I have my infant immunized against Hep B when she is unlikely to have any risk of contracting it before she'll need to be re-immunized? what the fizzle? This kind of nonsense makes a person start to believe in vaccine company conspiracy theories, or at least that immunizing recommendations might have as much to do with $ than public safety.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:15 pm 
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Journal of Pediatrics:

Quote:
Dr. Frank DeStefano and colleagues from the CDC and Abt Associates, Inc. analyzed data from 256 children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and 752 children without ASD (born from 1994-1999) from 3 managed care organizations. They looked at each child’s cumulative exposure to antigens, the substances in vaccines that cause the body’s immune system to produce antibodies to fight disease, and the maximum number of antigens each child received in a single day of vaccination.

The researchers determined the total antigen numbers by adding the number of different antigens in all vaccines each child received in one day, as well as all vaccines each child received up to 2 years of age. The authors found that the total antigens from vaccines received by age 2 years, or the maximum number received on a single day, was the same between children with and without ASD. Furthermore, when comparing antigen numbers, no relationship was found when they evaluated the sub-categories of autistic disorder and ASD with regression.


No relationship.

From http://jpeds.com/content/JPEDSDeStefano

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:28 pm 
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It's too bad the study wasn't bigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:57 pm 
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It was bigger than the original study. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:02 pm 
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Yeah, but it's still unfortunately not that big if you're looking for small effects. I don't think there *are* small effects, mind you, it just would be useful to have the best data possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Vaccines Not Linked To Autism. Again.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillin ... ism-again/

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:39 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
Vaccines Not Linked To Autism. Again.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillin ... ism-again/


Yeah, NPR did a thing on the same Journal of Pediatrics article too. It's getting a lot of play today, looks like.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:57 pm 
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There have been a lot of studies trying to find the link between autism and vaccines since Wakefield falsified his, and they have all turned up nothing. So while this particular study may be small, the sum total of studies done is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:49 am 
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Ariann wrote:
Y'know, I am super pro-vaccinating. But I was doing a little poking about to see how long the Hep B vaccine is effective for and while they think adults who are vaccinated might be immune for 20+ years, kids who begin the series before 6 months are probably not fully covered past 15. So why the hell did I have my infant immunized against Hep B when she is unlikely to have any risk of contracting it before she'll need to be re-immunized? what the fizzle? This kind of nonsense makes a person start to believe in vaccine company conspiracy theories, or at least that immunizing recommendations might have as much to do with $ than public safety.


If you contract Hep B as a small child, the risk of it turning chronic is much greater. Adults can usually be cured. Hep B is not very common here, so they only vaccinate babies who have carriers in their family.

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