| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:53 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1095 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 44  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:24 pm 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 1137
Location: Arizona
mamatafari wrote:
Ummm ok. I don't think I said anyone was anything. I said it can be construed as.. Also, sadly children die who are both vaccinated and not so I don't know why so angry towards what I said?


I'm not angry. I'm also not the person who accused others of racism and ignorance.

_________________
Empathy, he once had decided, must be limited to herbivores or anyhow omnivores who could depart from a meat diet.
--Philip K. Dick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:29 pm 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:16 pm
Posts: 3833
Location: Panama City, Florida
Final warning guys.

_________________
etsy shop: teeny tiny tantrums


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:37 pm 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:16 am
Posts: 464
Quote:
Also, sadly children die who are both vaccinated and not


yes but they die at quite different rates, its not like both choices have equivalent outcomes

_________________
No gods, no masters, no woo, no whey!
Be skeptical not susceptible!
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:31 pm 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:01 am
Posts: 1296
Location: sunshine coast, australia
for what it's worth, my friends went to africa for an eight month holiday with 2 unvaxxed kids under the age of five. the father is african and in the places they were going, he had never seen anything to make him believe that the chances were any worse of catching diseases than in australia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:01 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8478
Location: Maryland/DC area
I had German measles as a child but I don't remember it. I looked into it and apparently the danger is mostly for unborn children who can die in utero or get birth defects. That is kind of scary. I think if I was planning to get pregnant, I'd get a titer or the mmr. The sad thing is lack of vaccines doesn't only affect those that choose not to be vaccinated.

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:19 pm 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:16 am
Posts: 464
❀madam dahlia❀ wrote:
for what it's worth, my friends went to africa for an eight month holiday with 2 unvaxxed kids under the age of five. the father is african and in the places they were going, he had never seen anything to make him believe that the chances were any worse of catching diseases than in australia.


That may be what it looks like from the ground from a lay observer but you get a better picture by looking at actual disease and mortality statistics. Rates of vaccine preventable illness are objectively higher through a large amount of Africa compared with Australia (no thanks to Meryl Dory)

_________________
No gods, no masters, no woo, no whey!
Be skeptical not susceptible!
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:22 pm 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:01 am
Posts: 1296
Location: sunshine coast, australia
SkepticalVegan wrote:
❀madam dahlia❀ wrote:
for what it's worth, my friends went to africa for an eight month holiday with 2 unvaxxed kids under the age of five. the father is african and in the places they were going, he had never seen anything to make him believe that the chances were any worse of catching diseases than in australia.


That may be what it looks like from the ground from a lay observer but you get a better picture by looking at actual disease and mortality statistics. Rates of vaccine preventable illness are objectively higher through a large amount of Africa compared with Australia (no thanks to Meryl Dory)


yeah, but they didn't go anywhere near any disease outbreaks, they had clean water and access to soap and all that jazz, so, in that respect, not much different at all to australia...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:40 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18890
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Just fyi, measles isn't stopped by clean water and soap, its an airborne disease. So if they were in an area where someone had the disease they might have been exposed, but of course the same thing could happen in Australia as well. I am very glad your friend's kids were alright.

I do find Fezza's point (and that Mexican case) and all the other cases listed above is useful to remember, that its not just about your kids. In Mexico an unvaxed French toddler triggered off Mexico's first outbreak of measles in 4 years and if you look at the US outbreaks in the link I attached above, there have been several cases where one sick tourist on an airplane or ER or MD's office or school exposes a number of people to a disease.

ETA link: http://pediatrics.about.com/od/measles/ ... breaks.htm

And of course none of this is intended to malign anyone choosing not to vaccinate their children, just pointing out that diseases spread really easily and can put children in danger.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Last edited by Tofulish on Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:41 pm 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:16 am
Posts: 464
❀madam dahlia❀ wrote:
SkepticalVegan wrote:
❀madam dahlia❀ wrote:
for what it's worth, my friends went to africa for an eight month holiday with 2 unvaxxed kids under the age of five. the father is african and in the places they were going, he had never seen anything to make him believe that the chances were any worse of catching diseases than in australia.


That may be what it looks like from the ground from a lay observer but you get a better picture by looking at actual disease and mortality statistics. Rates of vaccine preventable illness are objectively higher through a large amount of Africa compared with Australia (no thanks to Meryl Dory)


yeah, but they didn't go anywhere near any disease outbreaks, they had clean water and access to soap and all that jazz, so, in that respect, not much different at all to australia...


yes but its not just the specific location, its the people in that location and where they have been recently and who they have been in contact with. Even in a "safe area" you will have much greater chance of running into unvaccinated persons and carriers on a continent with low vaccination rates versus one with higher rates.

Keep in mind that travelers and immigrants from certain nations have brought diseases we had locally wiped out back into OZ, europe, and the US. With a shorter travel distance between locations and more frequent travel with-in a continent versus inter-continental travel you are just more likely to run into an unvaccinated person or dangerous disease carrier on a continent w/ low vaccination rates than out in OZ

_________________
No gods, no masters, no woo, no whey!
Be skeptical not susceptible!
http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:48 pm 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3561
Location: It's hot. All the time.
In the US if you are exposed to measles, your local and/or state health department can quarantine you for three weeks. During the San Diego outbreak a few years ago, parents of a six month old baby had to split time staying home with their infant in addition to worrying if the child would catch the disease. Soap and water doesn't prevent the spread of the disease, as Tofulish pointed out. Plus, you are infectious before you know you have the disease so an unvaccinated person could catch the disease from a chance encounter with an infected person. Then the could infect other people themselves before they knew they had the disease. . .

Some things to remember from WHO:
More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2008 worldwide.
In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally – nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.

From Reuters:
In 2010, "more than 28 countries in Africa have suffered outbreaks of measles... Some of the worst hit [were] Lesotho, Malawi, Namibia, South Africa, Zambia and Zimbabwe."
In Africa's poorest nations, where victims may be malnourished or have weakened immune systems, measles can quickly become a killer.
Quote:
Edward Hoekstra, a New York-based specialist with UNICEF's Global Measles Programme said experts' greatest fears -- that the success against the disease could be reversed when efforts to keep it at bay lapse -- are already starting to be realised.

"In the past in Africa, every mother knew about measles. They knew it killed children. Sometimes they wouldn't even name their children until after they had survived measles," he said in a telephone interview. "But now they don't see it so much any more and there has been a drop in demand (for vaccinations)."


The reason that there was success against the disease is vaccination. It's on the rise because people are not as vigilant about vaccinating their children. Measles is so infectious that a vaccination rate of about 90% is necessary. It only costs about $1 US to supply a child with the vaccine which is a bargain.

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:35 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2236
Location: Oxford, UK
SkepticalVegan wrote:

yes but its not just the specific location, its the people in that location and where they have been recently and who they have been in contact with. Even in a "safe area" you will have much greater chance of running into unvaccinated persons and carriers on a continent with low vaccination rates versus one with higher rates.

This. It works the other way too. Someone could come from the US/someplace with high vaccination rates, take it to someplace with low ones. Even if they stay in a "safe" place, people from that area could travel back to other areas of the country carrying the diseases with them. This happens even in the US....people go to visit grandma, catch the mumps and then bring it home with them, all the while they're in the incubation period.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:44 am 
Offline
Thinks chickens are assholes
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 5596
linanil wrote:
I had German measles as a child but I don't remember it. I looked into it and apparently the danger is mostly for unborn children who can die in utero or get birth defects. That is kind of scary. I think if I was planning to get pregnant, I'd get a titer or the mmr. The sad thing is lack of vaccines doesn't only affect those that choose not to be vaccinated.


My brother was born profoundly deaf and mute because my mum caught German measles when she was pregnant with him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:12 pm 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4702
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
So basically, what this all comes down to is that you should have your kids vaccinated no matter where you live or where you plan on going.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:11 pm 
Offline
So Totally Yiffy
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:15 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Philly/NY
I understand individual parents' personal concerns about giving their children any medications or exposing them to anything they view as unnatural. I appreciate that both sides are participating (usually calmly) in this thread. Having said that, I do disagree with certain statements debated here.

As far as anyone being offended that an incident in Kenya was generalized to all of Africa does not epidemiologically make sense to me. Overall, many diseases preventable by vaccines are still endemic all over Africa due to lower vaccination rates, not because parents in those areas choose not to vaccinate after having done personal research on pros/ cons but because weak health infrastructure in resource-poor areas does not allow for adequate primary care. Even if it is in a developed city, there are still many people commuting in and out to make money in the cities and return home to the villages. So the exposure to such diseases is still higher than it is in nations that overall benefit from higher herd immunity even if you travel to a city you feel is safe.

The 12-month-old and 15-month-old not being vaccinated either reflects deliberate choice not to vaccinate or a lapse in medical care. MMR is scheduled at 9 months in many developing countries. And if a trip to Africa is planned, the vaccines available for that age should be given be for the trip. Even if it is within the window of normal vaccination schedule to wait until 15 months, if you are taking your kid to Africa and he/ she is 12 months, the vaccine should be given prior to the trip, not at the end of that recommended window because your trip changes the safe window of vaccine administration. Any traveler (adult or child) going to areas with diseases that you would not normally encounter in your home country should consult with a physician they trust to see if there are any prophylactic measures that are recommended. It seems that these parents either did not do that or for personal reasons felt it was not beneficial to vaccinate the children despite recommendation to the contrary.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:20 pm 
Offline
Discovered unobtainium
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 12051
Location: Dinosaur Stampede
Little garlic, that's a nicely succinct summary.

_________________
"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee
"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:30 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1530
Yeah, that was a great post.

The PPK has so many little things. A bird, a bear, a hors d'oeuvre, and garlic!

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:33 pm 
Offline
Thinks chickens are assholes
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:17 pm
Posts: 5596
Thank you littlegarlic!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:06 am 
Offline
Flounceiad 2011
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:26 pm
Posts: 5419
Location: A New England
lavawitch wrote:
Little garlic, that's a nicely succinct summary.
Yes!

_________________
Nothing is safe from weiners in my neighborhood... ~ crowderpea
I didn't embarrass him by saying anything about wanking ~ 8ball
"SMLOUNCE!" ~ smurfterrobang?!
http://elizaveganpage.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:11 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18890
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I thought this was an interesting article on the sticky issues of mandating vaccines, particularly Gardisil and Cervarix and the Tea Party flappery about it.

I hadn't even realized that Michele Bachmann was claiming the HPV vaccine causes mental retardation. Ijit.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:54 am 
Offline
Inflexitarian
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Virginia, USA
What's the politest, non-debating way to explain I'm vaccinating? Being rather active in the autism community means some people who I'm very friendly with have rather strong opinions and I'd really rather just not get into a debate. I believe the science supports it and it's the right choice for my family. (I tried this almost exact sentence and got a "But.." and long story about persecution of Wakefield, etc..)

ETA: I think their intentions tend to be good because they honestly do believe it causes autism and I'm younger, so it's not meant as a pushy thing, more of a protective thing.

_________________
Geeks make the world go 'round

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/GeekKnowledge


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:44 am 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:35 pm
Posts: 1518
Location: Boston
Shanti wrote:
What's the politest, non-debating way to explain I'm vaccinating? Being rather active in the autism community means some people who I'm very friendly with have rather strong opinions and I'd really rather just not get into a debate. I believe the science supports it and it's the right choice for my family. (I tried this almost exact sentence and got a "But.." and long story about persecution of Wakefield, etc..)

ETA: I think their intentions tend to be good because they honestly do believe it causes autism and I'm younger, so it's not meant as a pushy thing, more of a protective thing.

Ugh, I know where you're coming from--autism runs in my family, and about half my extended family are against vaccination. It gets really emotional really quickly if we ever try to talk about it, so just ending the discussion in as polite a way as possible is the safest bet.

If I were you, I'd say that you understand/thank them for their concern, then reiterate that it's the right choice for your family. This is really just a polite way to shut down the discussion. If they try to draw you out, keep repeating "it's the right choice for my family" until they realize they're not going to engage you in a discussion.

_________________
http://vegetalion.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:51 am 
Offline
Grandfathered In
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Posts: 9524
Location: Seattle
People STILL defend Wakefield and his "theories"?

_________________
Did somebody say Keep on rockin?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:04 am 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 18890
Location: Cliffbar NJ
If you are not looking for advice and the person talking isn't going to change their mind, I say redirect - "Oh look! Bean dip!"

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:26 am 
Offline
Inflexitarian
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Virginia, USA
Okay, thanks gals! And yes it is an emotional topic, and it can turn ugly so quick that I just don't like it. (I don't know about nationally FootFace but yea, here there's a pretty big group of staunch Wakefield defenders, it's a bad case of reinforcement bias with odd books that remain at libraries and circulating in these groups) I'd rather be polite that burn bridges on the chance that I need help plus I like contributing.

_________________
Geeks make the world go 'round

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/GeekKnowledge


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:43 am 
Offline
Can't Dance, Isn't Part of Revolution
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 156
Location: Qld, Australia
I have really enjoyed reading this thread, and just wanted to add one other thing:

Hepatitis B is spread through blood and infected bodily fluids. It can be spread through bites and scratches that result in broken skin. Kids who play rough could have a chance of spreading it if one of them has an infection. Kids bleed, get nosebleeds, and get very unwell around other children. Most of the time they won't give each other hepatitis B, but it is something to keep in mind - it spread by more than sexual contact or needle sharing.

I lost my rubella immunity in the past 4 years, so I had a booster at the end of last year. I didn't mind getting another mumps and measles boost along with that, because these diseases are circulating and I work in a hospital. I also get the flu shot, but still managed to get the official flu this year (diagnosed through throat swab). Fortunately I got over it quickly, but it was quite unpleasant.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1095 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 44  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer