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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:13 am 
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j-dub wrote:
Emmie wrote:
We don't get flu shots, but we also don't get the flu and if we did I venture to say it would not kill either of us.

It probably won't kill you, this is true. My dad, though, is an asthmatic with severely compromised lung function. It could kill him. I know there are several immuno-suppressed/compromised people on this very board who could die from the flu you could pass on. Vaccines are not just about you not getting sick, they're about protecting the people who cannot get them.

This, a thousand times.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:25 am 
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I know the flu doesn't sound so lethal, but the CDC estimates that as many as 49,000 people die from the flu (or die from one or more causes among which is the flu) every year in the U.S.

It's true, of course, that getting the flu doesn't mean you'll probably die. But thousands and thousands of people will. And being out there, in public, possibly (and unwittingly) exposing vulnerable people to the flu isn't the best idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:48 am 
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j-dub wrote:
Emmie wrote:
We don't get flu shots, but we also don't get the flu and if we did I venture to say it would not kill either of us.

It probably won't kill you, this is true. My dad, though, is an asthmatic with severely compromised lung function. It could kill him. I know there are several immuno-suppressed/compromised people on this very board who could die from the flu you could pass on. Vaccines are not just about you not getting sick, they're about protecting the people who cannot get them.


This. I sometimes have nasty side effects from the flu shot, but I live with m dad, and he would probably end up in the hospital if he got the flu. Since I teach and therefore may be higher risk of bringing it home, I got it. For HIS sake, not mine.

Oregon has had a big resurgence of whopping cough recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:15 am 
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There has been a resurgence of motherforking polio.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:46 am 
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solipsistnation wrote:
I don't think people are lying. I think they may have been misled, or that they may have put things together wrong. I also don't pretend to be an expert-- I just have a pretty good idea of how to tell what's bogus and what isn't on the internet.


I think solipsnation is exactly right - I don't think most of the people who claim that their loved ones were injured by vaccines are lying* that said, it becomes problematic when people take anecdotal conclusions based on misinformation and fear, and use it to inform their decisions instead of science. Like Michele Bachmann whose allegations that the HPV vaccine may cause "mental retardation" may well cause many young women to not be vaccinated and be at an increased risk for cervical cancer as a result.

*I do think that there are people, like Gary Young, who are actually lying to people who are sick and scared, in order to sell them things that will cure their cancer and their flu and other respiratory illnesses like Thieves Oil.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:22 am 
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I was surprised to read that Mayim Bialik is anti-vac for her kids. She mentions it briefly in her book, Beyond the Sling. Saying it was beyond the scope of that book, she gave no reasons. I am curious what her thinking is on that.

I am more scared of the illnesses that the vaccines are meant to protect my child from than the safety of the vaccines although I am astounded by how many more there are now than when I was a kid.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:36 am 
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Aside from anti-science, faith based nonsense, there is ZERO reliable evidence that vaccines are harmful. They have been tested and studied to the extreme. I know that it's emotionally satisfying to blame a child's problems on vaccines but it's not logical. Many developmental issues are diagnosed at the same point when children start to receive more than a few vaccines.

If you wish to believe is fairies, ghosts, angels, or that vaccines are filled with toxins, that's your choice but it's one based on faith and not evidence. What I also find strange is this idea that vaccines are part of a grand plan for big pharma to make money when the faith based, alt medicine crowd is hardly giving away their pixie dust.

What's not based on faith is the pertussis epidemic in Washington. state.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:48 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
j-dub wrote:
Emmie wrote:
We don't get flu shots, but we also don't get the flu and if we did I venture to say it would not kill either of us.

It probably won't kill you, this is true. My dad, though, is an asthmatic with severely compromised lung function. It could kill him. I know there are several immuno-suppressed/compromised people on this very board who could die from the flu you could pass on. Vaccines are not just about you not getting sick, they're about protecting the people who cannot get them.


This. I sometimes have nasty side effects from the flu shot, but I live with m dad, and he would probably end up in the hospital if he got the flu. Since I teach and therefore may be higher risk of bringing it home, I got it. For HIS sake, not mine.

Oregon has had a big resurgence of whopping cough recently.



Does he get the flu shot? Why would you need to get it for him if he gets it himself?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:10 pm 
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The efficacy of current influenza vaccines is reduced in older people, so if J-Dub or LW's dad ended up not mounting an efficient immune response he would be at risk of catching it from them if they became infected because they refused the vaccine.

Washing hands isn't going to do much for a virus that is happy to take up residence in your cells when you inhale a droplet.

This looks like a useful book. It's written in a Q&A-type format.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Emmie wrote:
Does he get the flu shot? Why would you need to get it for him if he gets it himself?


JDub's and Lavawitch's father aren't the only people with compromised immune systems. I think both were using them as examples to remind all of us that if we, as healthy individuals, aren't vaccinated, we can still pass illness and infection on to others. And there are a lot of people in this country who can't afford vaccines--really, even if a shot is available for $25, that's $25 more than some people have. You never know the stories of those you're coming into contact with--and unless you live an isolated life and never go to public places, you can't say that you don't have the potential to put others at risk. And of course, you'll encounter others who don't believe in vaccinating, and the more unvaccinated people there are, the more herd immunity decreases. Herd immunity is largely why so many infections--like the flu--appear innocuous. With a mostly-vaccinated population, people either aren't getting sick, or they're getting less severely ill.

That last point is important--vaccines can't always prevent illness completely, but they can significantly lessen the severity of an illness. It can mean the difference between a life-threatening flu and a flu that one can recover from. That's a reason to get vaccinated for others who are also vaccinated. JDub's dad could get a flu shot, and still catch the flu from JDub--because he's vaccinated, the flu won't kill him but it might be very, very painful. JDub could spare him three or four days of being in pain by getting vaccinated herself. Even if she get the flu post-vaccination, it'll be a milder case, and in turn, in worst-case scenario, her father will get a milder case, and not incur any *preventable* pain.

Upthread, you'd asked for a single study that debunks anti-vaccination arguments and isn't funded by pharmaceutical companies. There are multiple university- and hospital-funded studies in academic journals (like the American Medical Association Journal and the Journal of Infectious Diseases). They're specialized, peer-reviewed studies whose results are replicated. I don't know how easy it will be to find a single article that covers everything (at least not any article that is fewer than 30 pages in length) because good science means multiple studies conducted over time by multiple people. I can't link you to any that won't be behind a paywall--your best bet is to go to a college library, if you have access. If anyone you know is in school, they'd be able to access the library databases for free.

Does anyone know how accessible academic journals are at public libraries? I've been attached to college libraries for so long, I haven't done any of this type of research at state-funded libraries.

*Edited to say vaccines can't completely prevent illness all the time, and in those cases, still do lessen the severity of illness. Initially, I'd worded it to sound as though vaccines never completely prevent illness, but I didn't mean it that way.

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Last edited by tinglepants! on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Ours were a little less expensive, but about $200 to $300 a shot. I don't know why I had expected them to be more reasonable....


Oh wow... Our doctor told us that just by having high-deductible insurance we were eligible for $10 vaccinations through some Texas government program. I was in shock that the state of Texas was actually doing things for low-income people. I felt weird about it and almost argued to pay full price, but now I'm glad I didn't...I had no idea how expensive vaccinations really are! Seems crazy if you're trying to encourage high rates of vaccination.

Our pediatrician stocks the vaccine brands that are the lowest available in mercury and aluminum. We're selectively vaccinating and on a slightly delayed schedule. I feel like it's a good compromise for us.

I'll stay out of the argument after this because I hate to tell anyone how to parent as long as they're not spreading misinformation, but I'm also in the same camp of being more afraid of the risks of contracting the actual diseases vs. risks of vaccines themselves. While I was pregnant my husband and I thought we were 100% comfortable not vaccinating at all, but the more I kept reading (on both sides) the more strongly I felt about vaccinating S for at least some diseases.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:53 pm 
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annak wrote:
Finally, I really don't like the assumption that has crept into the vaccination argument that people have a duty to create some sort of herd immunity on behalf of other people. I think it sets a bad precedent in general to say that I'm obligated to put something in my body in order to protect someone else's health.


<-This

As for the analogy that followed in response re HIV and informed consent it was a completely flawed analogy. I am not obligated to put something in my body to keep other people safe. That has nothing to do with informed consent re sexual contact, which I think is important. There is a huge difference between sexual contact and walking around in public spaces breathing the same air. Walking around in public spaces is something I have every right to do, if I get vaccinations or not.

It's interesting that people argued so strongly when I said that vaccinations have limited effectiveness, and then people argue that I should get vaccinated for the sake of others who the vaccine may not have worked for. Double think much? Is it effective or not? Yes very. Well, for some people sometimes?? I'm not convinced. As for the arguement of people not being able to afford vaccinations so presumably if I'm healthy and can afford them I should get them to benefit those people that does not apply here... vaccines are covered where I live. I will do more research. I do believe I have access to medical journals at the library. If I do decide to continue to refuse vaccinations that is my right. It is my body. This topic is already hot enough but I can't help but think of a comparison between this and abortion rights. I suspect many people who want everyone vaccinated also believe in abortion rights. The right to make choices for ones own body is sacred people. I'm so done with this thread. I will do my further research in journals.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:03 pm 
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You have the right to indulge in any sort of thinking you wish; you just don't have the right to make statements in public and not have them challenged.

The self-righteous indignation is not really necessary either and it does not advance your argument. It's illogical to compare vaccines to abortion rights.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:07 pm 
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It is not illogical. The right to choose for ones own body... I see a comparison even if you don't.

I don't object to being challenged. I will do further research as a result of this conversation which I think is good, but there was already a tone of self rightousness here... I did not introduce that to the thread. That tone is why I will look elsewhere for further information.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Emmie wrote:
It's interesting that people argued so strongly when I said that vaccinations have limited effectiveness, and then people argue that I should get vaccinated for the sake of others who the vaccine may not have worked for. Double think much? Is it effective or not? Yes very. Well, for some people sometimes?? I'm not convinced.

It's not double think at all. The fact that it doesn't work for some people is due to their immune systems not responding efficiently. This does not mean that the vaccine doesn't work in general. The childhood vaccination schedule is set up so that a vaccine is given at an age where it is proven to be effective (for the average individual).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Let's stay civil, folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:28 pm 
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I personally think that getting vaccinated is part of the duty of being a good citizen. If you choose to live in proximity and relation to others (that is, in a society) there are rewards and responsibilities that come with it. I get my vaccines partially because I contract absolutely everything that comes my way, but more because I don't ever want to spread something to my coworker whose partner just had a baby, or my friend whose mom is immunocompromised.

I think what would be a lot more useful than yelling back and forth would be to explore the reasons people are fearful of vaccines, increase scientific literacy in general, and address the fears that people have with compassion and facts. A lot easier said than done, sure. I had to leave a conversation at work earlier this week when my new colleague started spouting misinformation about vaccines and refused to consider the possibility that the half-baked theories from her paranoid professor could be refuted through science.

But, ultimately, I also think that schools and daycares should be able to enforce a vaccination policy. Is it shitty for the kids who are excluded because of their parents' decisions? Absolutely. Should everybody else in that school (and all the people they come in contact with) suffer for someone else's unscientific rejection of vaccines?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Emmie wrote:
This thread thus far has seemed pretty pro-vac, even leaning towards "those anti-vac peeps are toats loco",

I wouldn't use those words. Wrong, deluded & dangerous are however words I might use on a cranky day.

Quote:
Vaccinations are loaded with heavy metals like mercury and aluminum.

"Loaded" is a loaded term, and in this case pretty misleading. Tiny amounts known to be generally safe would be more accurate.
You also fail to differentiate between ethyl mercury (which is in some vaccines) and methyl mercury (the far more dangerous for, not in vaccines). Your mention of aluminum is equally misleading, the amount of aluminum, I suggestign read up on the issue from a non-quack source.


Quote:
Many of the diseases vaccinations are supposed to prevent were already on the decline due to improved hygene and nutrition and other factors when vaccinations began, so their efficiecy is also in question.


Such diseases have declined for multiple reasons, hygiene and and vaccination are both factor. However we dont simply rely on observation and epidemiology to judge vaccine efficacy, we also perform many many clinical trials.

Quote:
Don't listen to me though; this dude's a doctor and I'm not: http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/ ... 1114120529 .

Nope, refer to Tofulish's post
Just a quack.

Quote:
I know the study re autism was, well, total bull. Just because the study was bs though does not mean a link is impossible.

No, it just means that its still baseless speculation. The likelihood of harms from refusing vaccination is FAR more established than the harms from vaccination.

Quote:
The Amish, who generally do not vaccinate have almost no Autism. There have been three cases of Autism in the Amish and those were kids who had been vaccinated against the norm of their communties. Conclusive? Of course not. Interesting? I think so.


No, not very interesting because this myth has been debunked many times.
"Anecdotal Amish-don’t-vaccinate claims disproved by fact-based study" By Seth Mnookin
International Meeting for Autism Research: Prevalence Rates of Autism Spectrum Disorders Among the Old Order Amish
"Autism and the Amish"
"Autism Among the Amish: A Vaccination Myth Deconstructed" by Stacy Herlihy


Quote:
I get a little emotional about this because my ex's son had serious developmental delays. Both his parents swore he was a normal baby hitting all his developmental markers. Then he had a set of vaccinations and got sick. After that the serious developmental delays became obvious quickly. Maybe the timing was coincidental and the vaccinations were not to blame. Don't try telling my ex that though. I don't claim to know the answer about vaccines, but I think just because there are no conclusive studies showing vaccines to be harmful... that does not mean for sure they are safe.


I cant address anecdotes but they arnt evidence. This is just fallacious thinking

Quote:
No one has proven yet that GMO foods are dangerous for your health... but I avoid them just the same, and I bet lots of you do too.


Dont even get me started. Both are safe. Lets stop with the fear mongering. Science denial has serious tangible life threatening consequences, unlike the non-existent fear on the anti-vax and anti-Gm crowd.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Herd immunity is not all about other people. Everyone benefits, including you.

You can still get flu with vaccines, just milder cases, as has been stated.

As a teacher, you see your classes go through a domino effect: one kid gets strep, many end up with it. Imagine if that were something like pertussis.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:05 pm 
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(note: I'm using "you" in the general sense--not pointing a finger at you, Emmie).

I do think it's important to point out that choice works both ways; if you believe it is your choice to not vaccinate, you also need to allow daycares and schools the choice to require children to be vaccinated if they're going to be a part of said school/daycare. Likewise, parents can make the choice to not let their children play with others who haven't been vaccinated.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Emmie wrote:
Regardless of this "Doctors" qualifications or lack theroff ... there are toxins in vaccines. Toxins are nasty things.



This is just misleading fear mongering.
Cries the antivaccinationist: Why are we injecting TOXINS into our babies?


Quote:
There is limited evidence showing vaccines to be effective


shenanigans, there is PLENTY of evidence, I link to some earlier in the previous post.
So go ahead, name the particular vaccine and Ill link the evidence where i can find it.

Quote:
Anecdotal evidence from parents of supposedly "vaccine damaged" children may not be conclusive but it is scary to me.

Why We Need Science: “I saw it with my own eyes” Is Not Enough by Harriet Hall

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Can anyone show me a single study, (not funded by a drug comapany please) that proves they are safe? Is that even possible?


No because that just not how science works. The best we can do is show that we tried really really harm to find evidence of harm and keep coming up empty handed. Our knowledge of the safety of vaccines is based on the accumulation of years and years of clinical and epidemiological research. Single studies are often misleading, its best to look at the body of literature and the scientific consensus (if there be one, and in this case there certainly is one).

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Butternut wrote:
I was surprised to read that Mayim Bialik is anti-vac for her kids. She mentions it briefly in her book, Beyond the Sling. Saying it was beyond the scope of that book, she gave no reasons. I am curious what her thinking is on that.

I am more scared of the illnesses that the vaccines are meant to protect my child from than the safety of the vaccines although I am astounded by how many more there are now than when I was a kid.

Mayin Bialik is affiliated with the "Holistic Moms Network." She's embraced a variety of woo.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:50 pm 
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wow, i just learn multiple new things.
Amy is played by the same person as Blossom( I knew I recognized her!, I used to watch that)
Mayim has a PhD in real life
Mayim is pokesperson for the Holistic Moms Network (i was already well aware of the org)
Mayim is anti-vax & a home birth promoter
and that she is vegan

damn I was out of the loop, considering I love love love the big bang theory (I even have the Big Bang board game at home) i cant believe I didnt know any of that

Next you are gonna tell me Kunal Nayyar (Raj) is moon landing denier and spokesperson for MUFON while Jim Parsons (sheldon) runs a "free energy" and perpetual motion device investment scam

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:03 pm 
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SkepticalVegan wrote:
wow, i just learn multiple new things.
Amy is played by the same person as Blossom( I knew I recognized her!, I used to watch that)
Mayim has a PhD in real life
Mayim is pokesperson for the Holistic Moms Network (i was already well aware of the org)
Mayim is anti-vax & a home birth promoter
and that she is vegan

damn I was out of the loop, considering I love love love the big bang theory (I even have the Big Bang board game at home) i cant believe I didnt know any of that

Next you are gonna tell me Kunal Nayyar (Raj) is moon landing denier and spokesperson for MUFON while Jim Parsons (sheldon) runs a "free energy" and perpetual motion device investment scam

I don't care what she thinks about anything, but I think it's unfortunate that an educated person with a platform is supporting the anti-vac choice. In her book she tries to base a lot of her opinions about attachment parenting on science and I'm just curious why she is anti-vac.


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