Post Punk Kitchen Forum
http://forum.theppk.com/

Can we talk about vaccinations here?
http://forum.theppk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10915
Page 21 of 50

Author:  refinnej [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

re: shingles...you can't (at least not typically) get it unless you've had chicken pox or have had the vaccine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001861/

Mr. refinnej had it about 3 years ago and it was awful, I mean really bad. He said that the Norwegian word literally means Hell's fire. Whew.

Author:  Tofulish [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Yes, in my post I said that I was asking for sources bc the vax is so new and some of the claims (like that the virus in the vax is less likely to implant in the nerves) are not ones I have heard and that particular one is in conflict with the research showing that there has been an uptick in shingles after we started vaxing.

Author:  annak [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

A recent uptake could just be an aging population / giant number of boomers getting to shingles age, as well. I wouldn't blame the vax yet since the baby boomers wouldn't have gotten it. (Unless there was a big increase in, say, Japanese people in their 20s and 30s or something).

Author:  linanil [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Apparently the way the natural immunity works is that if you get chickenpox as a child, you are immune and you are 'boosted' by exposure to children who have chicken pox. With fewer kids getting chicken pox, we are no longer getting boosted and thus they expect the shingles rate to increase until the aging population is vaccinated. So it looks like they recommend those with regular exposure to children who have natural immunity to get an adult booster. I wasn't aware of that myself.

Author:  linanil [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Oh and apparently you can get shingles without external exposure but your risk is believed to be less than if you had the 'wild' virus.
Quote:
Varicella vaccine contains live attenuated VZV, which causes latent infection. The attenuated vaccine virus can reactivate and cause herpes zoster. People who get vaccinated against varicella may develop herpes zoster later in life. However, their risk is lower than people who were infected with wild-type VZV.


http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

Author:  helbury [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Hmm. I'm trying to understand this. So, if we compare, say, the risk of shingles of my grandmother, me, and my daughter, who has (or had) the highest risk of shingles? My grandmother died before the chicken pox vaccine was routine, so she had chicken pox, and was exposed to people infected with chicken pox throughout her life. I had chicken pox as a kid, but the Varicella vax is common now, so I'm not routinely exposed to children with chicken pox. My daughter received the Varicella vax.

With all else being equal and assuming nobody gets the shingles vaccine, I'm guessing that I have the highest risk of shingles since I had wild-type VZV and I don't get the "boost" of immunity from being exposed to children with chicken pox. And it seems likely that my daughter will have a lower risk of shingles than my grandmother did? Am I interpreting this correctly?

Author:  linanil [ Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

helbury wrote:
Hmm. I'm trying to understand this. So, if we compare, say, the risk of shingles of my grandmother, me, and my daughter, who has (or had) the highest risk of shingles? My grandmother died before the chicken pox vaccine was routine, so she had chicken pox, and was exposed to people infected with chicken pox throughout her life. I had chicken pox as a kid, but the Varicella vax is common now, so I'm not routinely exposed to children with chicken pox. My daughter received the Varicella vax.

With all else being equal and assuming nobody gets the shingles vaccine, I'm guessing that I have the highest risk of shingles since I had wild-type VZV and I don't get the "boost" of immunity from being exposed to children with chicken pox. And it seems likely that my daughter will have a lower risk of shingles than my grandmother did? Am I interpreting this correctly?


According to the CDC website, yes. All of us with the wild-type are more at risk of shingles than adults who grew up around children that had chicken pox. And it is really that our immunity will wear out where previous generations it did not.

Your daughter should also have a less chance of getting shingles. So it seems we are kind of in a grey area where we are creating a bigger risk for shingles for adults due to vaccinating kids but in the end, the risk of shingles will go down.

Author:  Tofulish [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

This is interesting, thanks linanil.

I am so angry right now. The people who were at the pox playdate have scheduled a ton of other things, to take place while their kids could be contagious (bc the rash appears 2 days after the kid is contagious) in public spaces and with no warning to parents that their kids have been exposed to Varicella. I think this is so irresponsible, and I think Ariann has a point about the hive mentality. Someone invited me on a playdate and I only found out her kid was exposed by reading her post on another thread

Author:  Tofulish [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

This is interesting, thanks linanil.

I am so angry right now. The people who were at the pox playdate have scheduled a ton of other things, to take place while their kids could be contagious but seem fine (bc the rash appears 2 days after the kid is contagious) in public spaces and with no warning to parents that their kids have been exposed to Varicella. I think this is so irresponsible, and I think Ariann has a point about the hive mentality. Someone invited me on a playdate and I only found out her kid was exposed by reading her post on another thread. It was funny bc her post was about telling people that you've been exposed, to protect the elderly who are vulnerable to shingles, esp because the kids will likely be contagious at Thanksgiving.

I am done giving these people the benefit of the doubt. It sucks because I like so many of them and will miss hiking with them, but how in the name of all things do you not realize that it is forked up to make the choice to take a communicable disease to the library and invite people with newborns and infants, without warning them so they can make the same informed choice for their families that they get to make for theirs?

Author:  kimba [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

That's so messed up, Tofulish.

Author:  annak [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

That is messed up. Man, I get pissed when people come to stuff contagious with colds.

I'm actually pretty unconcerned about the pox party stuff as long as people plan on quarantining themselves or their families for a week or whatever after the deliberate exposure. It's not for me, it seems like 5 mo is really way too early for that, but definitely not to the level of getting CPS involved. But running around in public and, worse, planning playdates without informing people the kids were sick? I would cut a bisque.

Author:  FootFace [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

I had shingles when I was 13. I've always been advanced. And interesting!

Author:  seitanicverses [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

I'm just chiming in here to say that I was a tester subject of the varicella vaccine back in the late nineteen eighties. A few years ago, my doctor gave me a thorough blood panel and said I no longer had chicken pox immunity. I have no idea how long I was without it, but they discovered my immunity had worn off by the twenty-year (after the testing vaccine) mark. It could have worn off earlier though, just that thorough a blood panel hadn't been done on me before.

I don't know anything about shingles except that my sister had it fairly recently (I think it was shingles) and she said it was very, very painful. She is an adult +40 years.

Author:  kimba [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Yes, immunity for chicken pox can wear off, but you can get tested for it. Luckily for me, mine is still good (and I had it when I was a kid - in the 1980s). They are testing EVERYONE who works at the hospital/medical center where I work (whether or not you had it as a child) and if you are not immune, then you get the vaccine.

Author:  coldandsleepy [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Oh T, that peas me off so hard. Let's have a playdate for our maybe (we hope!!) contagious kids at... ... ... The library! Somewhere with close quarters and probably lots of other children and babies.

Author:  Vantine [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

coldandsleepy wrote:
Oh T, that peas me off so hard. Let's have a playdate for our maybe (we hope!!) contagious kids at... ... ... The library! Somewhere with close quarters and probably lots of other children and babies.

And the elderly. And low income people who have limited access to health care. And library employees.

Author:  coldandsleepy [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Vantine wrote:
coldandsleepy wrote:
Oh T, that peas me off so hard. Let's have a playdate for our maybe (we hope!!) contagious kids at... ... ... The library! Somewhere with close quarters and probably lots of other children and babies.

And the elderly. And low income people who have limited access to health care. And library employees.


Those people too, and anyone else at the library who doesn't want to be purposefully exposed to chicken pox without their knowledge. Obviously blah blah blah risks of being part of the public world, you can never know what people are exposing you to when you go out... but still, what a serious level of disregard for other people those parents are exhibiting.

Author:  DEG [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

I just want to point out that immunity to anything can wane over time. When I was starting grad school in 2000, they needed my immunization records, which I didn't have. So I got a blood paned done at my PCPs, and I no longer had chicken pox immunity, even though I actually had chicken pox, so I got a booster and got my DTaP booster as well. Then when I had my first DD, they did a blood panel when I delivered her, and I did not have sufficient MMR immunity, so I got a booster. Thank goodness I did because despite getting DD vaccinated, she got rubella when I was 11 weeks pregnant with DS. that is precisely the most dangerous time for a pregnant woman to get rubella and can cause serious, lifelong problems for the fetus, and even death. I did not catch it. Then when DS was born they ran my bloodwork again, and it was time for another DTaP booster. Again, thank goodness I got it, because when DS was a newborn there were major outbreaks of Pertussis all around California. We should all be getting checked periodically.

Author:  Tofulish [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

I continue to be flabbergasted by the reaction of people in the group. A 4.5 month old was exposed to the first child that had the pox, a day before the first child broke out into rashes, and now (8 days later) has a full-fledged case of the pox. The reactions are (1) oh its too soon to have been the first child, so you must have gotten it elsewhere and (2) yay! Its not too soon at all - but of course the mis-information is really handy for when you want to feel better about the fact that you just exposed a tiny baby to the pox.

My husband thinks I need to say something, esp because all the groups have a lot of overlap, so its not like I can drop out of one and be done. I'd like to be able to have a conversation about respecting others and not putting other people's children at risk, by warning and quaranting children whom you know have been exposed to the chicken pox for the incubation period of between 8 and 21 days from exposure. I am pretty sure the answer is going to be a resounding (1) varicella isn't serious, (2) you are assuming the risk and (3) you can't expect people to quarantine their kids for that long.

Author:  coldandsleepy [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Oy vey. I hope the baby will be okay.

Author:  refinnej [ Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

4.5 months...jeezus. Poor baby. :(

Author:  Ariann [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Those people make me burn with rage. And I agree with Brett. As Mr. A said - they are breaking the social contract. The only way people can live together in communities including babies, elderly people, and immune compromised people is if everybody agrees to not go around those people when there's any danger of them being sick. To purposefully go out in the world with infectious children is just refusing to live in the society everybody else has agreed to live in. If you can't trust people to do the right thing in these cases, how can you operate in a community at all?

I also had my immunity to varicella checked 3-4 years ago - I was still immune, had chicken pox in 1984.

Author:  Sra. Nooch [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

This article has shed some light on the issue of vaccination of adults for me.

http://blogs.plos.org/bodypolitic/2012/ ... /#more-473

Quote:
I think un-boostered adults are really driving the ongoing epidemic—in a way, they’re reservoirs. They’re catching pertussis, dismissing it as nothing to worry about and going untreated, and then infecting those around them for a month or longer. (A 2007 study found that at least 73 percent of babies catch pertussis from adults.) We talk about how antivaxers’ kids are crumbling herd immunity against pertussis—and yes, they are—but so are 280 million American adults, and they’re probably the far bigger problem.

Author:  chiveggie [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

There is a theory (although I don't know if there is any true research) that shingles is becoming more prevalent due to no kids getting chickenpox anymore. The thought being, that if you are around somebody with chicken pox, your body reacts to it by producing more antibodies, thus giving you a "natural booster shot". Since we are never around people with chicken pox anymore, we aren't getting that anymore. Of course, like I said, just a theory, not actually research proven, so who knows.

I think part of the problem is we're never tested to see if we are still immune to this stuff. Other than me requesting titers for rubella, 5ths, and whooping cough before trying to get pregnant/once pregnant, I would not know. None of the vaccines are 100% effective, so even by getting the shot you might not be immune. I don't mind getting boosters for what I need, but I don't want to take a booster in case I do need it. Just like I won't take antibiotics until they do a culture to see if it's bacterial, if it's viral, or I'm already immune, it was pointless. Once I knew I wasn't immune to rubella, I got the shot immediately. Dangerous disease, not worth the chance. Chicken pox is another debate in my mind, doesn't seem to be a serious enough disease to me to get immunized against. Polio, measles, rubella, whooping cough... absolutely.

Author:  Vantine [ Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?

Sra. Nooch wrote:
This article has shed some light on the issue of vaccination of adults for me.

http://blogs.plos.org/bodypolitic/2012/ ... /#more-473

Quote:
I think un-boostered adults are really driving the ongoing epidemic—in a way, they’re reservoirs. They’re catching pertussis, dismissing it as nothing to worry about and going untreated, and then infecting those around them for a month or longer. (A 2007 study found that at least 73 percent of babies catch pertussis from adults.) We talk about how antivaxers’ kids are crumbling herd immunity against pertussis—and yes, they are—but so are 280 million American adults, and they’re probably the far bigger problem.


Here are the thoughts of a pediatrician in Kansas City on the epidemic. He's quoted in the Washington Post article that author referenced.

Page 21 of 50 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/