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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Leela hasn't had it yet. I don't think its necessary at this point, and every single shot we get is just no fun for L.

I would start looking for a good pediatrician that you trust as soon as possible, because a lot of really good ones only take newborns. Our pediatrician is very willing to work with whatever vax schedule we want to use, so we've done a standard schedule (just that if we have more than 2 shots we break them into a two appointments). The only one I was a bit on the fence with was chickenpox, mostly because it doesn't seem to protect them for that long, but then I figured I had such a hard time when I had it, I really don't want L to have to deal with that. Even though everyone we know who has had it has had very mild cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:54 pm 
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My bigger reasoning behind spacing them out (and im not even sure this is a valid concern) is having so much stuff shot into a small child all at once. I do agree that if the kid is already scared/pissed off it’s better to get as much done as you can but im wondering about having so many vax at once and if it’s better to space them out to lesson side effects like upset tummy or rash or soreness at injection site?

Im struggling with the idea of the chicken pox one too as I know people can have a severe case (as you said you did Tlish) but for the most part it seems like not that big of a deal. I know I had it and I have no memory of it other than a small scar on my stomach.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:26 pm 
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We declined Hep B at birth (our thinking was birth is rough enough, although honestly they also have heel sticks while they're in the hospital and now I think maybe it was pointless to push off), but then got back on schedule and are just delayed a few months for Hep B. (We also declined eye goop at birth, because I don't have any STDs so the potential benefit was moot.) We haven't declined anything else. I really believe in vaccination as a public health measure and as personal protection and I've been sufficiently convinced by the evidence that kids don't actually have more reactions when they get more than a couple vaccines at one go. I also have no interest in being at the pediatrician more than necessary, because you're going to be there a ridiculous amount the first year anyway. I just don't have time for that and have no interest in prolonging the agony. I highly recommend, when doing two shots at once, having two nurses there giving the shots at the same time in two legs rather than giving them sequentially - just get it over with. Also, if you can nurse through vaccines, that helps a lot of kids deal with the discomfort.

But yeah, there are a lot of shots. And lots of things that are given as combined vaccines for adults aren't given as combined vaccines for kids (like Hep A&B), so it's even more than you might think.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:04 pm 
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There is no medical evidence supporting delayed vaccination schedules or suggesting that the recommended schedule is harmful in anyway. It appears to be more of a way to cope with the fears of the parent.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:19 pm 
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we declined hep b at birth for both kids, as well as the eye goop. i am 100% pro the rest of the vaccination schedule. it's listed in their vaccination booklets that they don't have hep b, and we will get it for them probably at their last routine vax appt (age 4 or elementary, i can't remember). both times, i'd been screened for hep b and STIs during pregnancy, so it didn't seem necessary. there is a difference between getting a shot at birth and at 2 months though... just in their ability to cope with outside stimuli, and the establishment of nursing, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:23 pm 
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I think I'm going to decline the hep shot at birth too - which actually I hear is becoming more common (unless for some reason baby needs to go to the NICU, perhaps they would be exposed to something more there that might warrant me being more cautious). I also think I'll delay the eye goop until after bonding time, or forgo it completely. Neither myself or my husband have been exposed to chlaymdia or gonorrhea, so I think we're safe there.

I still struggle with wanting to do a delayed vax schedule. I hate the idea of putting so much into my baby's immune system so quickly. I know there will never be any science to prove either end of the argument, but I just can't wrap my head around it. Dangerous diseases, I certainly want the vax asap. Things that my kid probably won't be exposed to anytime soon, or that aren't that serious seem low priority. I also worry about the additives in the shots. It isn't just the actual disease strain of the shots, it's all the aluminum and stuff getting injected too. That's also a double edged sword because the combo shots mean more diseases being shoved into that little body, but at least there should be less preservatives needed with less injections.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:25 am 
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chiveggie wrote:
I still struggle with wanting to do a delayed vax schedule. I hate the idea of putting so much into my baby's immune system so quickly. I know there will never be any science to prove either end of the argument, but I just can't wrap my head around it.


Sure there will.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccin ... cines.html

Quote:
(Q) Can so many vaccines, given so early in life, overwhelm a child's immune system, suppressing it so it does not function correctly?

(A) No evidence suggests that the recommended childhood vaccines can “overload” the immune system. In contrast, from the moment babies are born, they are exposed to numerous bacteria and viruses on a daily basis. Eating food introduces new bacteria into the body; numerous bacteria live in the mouth and nose; and an infant places his or her hands or other objects in his or her mouth hundreds of times every hour, exposing the immune system to still more antigens. When a child has a cold they are exposed to at least 4 to 10 antigens and exposure to “strep throat” is about 25 to 50 antigens.

Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines, a 1994 report from the Institute of Medicine, states: “In the face of these normal events, it seems unlikely that the number of separate antigens contained in childhood vaccines ...would represent an appreciable added burden on the immune system that would be immunosuppressive.”


...and other stuff on that page.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:58 am 
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It is hard to give your child vaccinations - even when you KNOW the science. I did decline the initial Hep B in the hospital, but my little man is all caught up with the Hep B series as well as with his regular schedule now. The day I took him in for his 6 month shots I was making small talk with a client who said he had two girls and a boy, "but the boy had a reaction to that MMR shot, so he can't talk or walk..." Scared the bejeebus out of me. I really almost called and cancelled his appointment - luckily my job entails reviewing medical records and this record revealed the child in question actually had fragile-X syndrome - a genetic condition having nothing to do with vaccinations. My point is you need to stick to the science from reputable sources.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:21 am 
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im struggling with the polio vaccine. i know at this point it's a public health thing but the babycenter website said polio has been completely eradicated from the western hemisphere and that some traveler's can pick it up traveling to different places (i think Africa was mentioned for polio?)

so why is this not one of those shots that's "when you travel to destination X we recommend you get shot Y?"

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:47 am 
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LisaPunk wrote:
im struggling with the polio vaccine. i know at this point it's a public health thing but the babycenter website said polio has been completely eradicated from the western hemisphere and that some traveler's can pick it up traveling to different places (i think Africa was mentioned for polio?)

so why is this not one of those shots that's "when you travel to destination X we recommend you get shot Y?"

My guess is that people traveling from areas that still have polio could come into contact with unvaxed kids/adults and then we have another epidemic.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:05 am 
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then i guess my question is still what about other travel related vaccines?
why dont we vaccinate everyone for malaria or yellow fever or whatever shots you need when you go to remote places? why are we still vaccinating for polio?

also i feel like one of the vaccines they used to give out when i was younger was small pox. they dont seem to do that one anymore. is that completely wiped off the planet?

maybe i should read through the CDC page. im just trying to make sense of all this and then make an informed decision. im not trying to be difficult im just not sure i see the point in vaccinating a child against something they have a .00000000002% chance of encountering. maybe im missing an important chunk of info. like i said i just started researching all this.

i appreciate all the insight everyone has. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:13 am 
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Well there is no malaria vaccine (that I know about) but many people in malaria zones have built up an immunity (at least this is true for parts of Africa). I've traveled to various places and I've never had a yellow fever vaccine but usually hepatitis is the disease of concern.

Also, other countries still vaccinate for small pox but I think because we haven't had exposure in so long and many of those that did have exposure in the US (and other parts of the Americas) either were immune or died off already. For areas of the world where they didn't experience a 'die off' as we had in the Americas (and I think Europe?), it is probably more important. Of course being a country of immigrants, it doesn't mean we are safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:15 am 
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Because some illnesses are spread person to person and can be brought over easily by travellers while others are spread through food or animals that are unlikely to cross oceans. (Also, there is unfortunately no vaccine for malaria.)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:30 am 
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I'm going to guess it has a lot to do with relative risks. The polio (IPV) vaccine is a very safe vaccine, whereas the yellow fever vaccine has a much higher incidence of serious side effects (and there is no malaria vaccine).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:38 am 
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the CDC website is helping. it's got better data than the baby center website (duh).

i like reading the side effects and then the actualy statistics tht go with them.
even though im struggling with the "point" of the polio vaccine it seems to be pretty harmless.

the malaria thing was literally just something i knew you could get when you traveled to certain places so i assumed it was one of those "go to country X and get shot Y" thing but if there's no vaccine for it then im probably thinking of other diseases.

im just wondering why polio is vaccinating for and not other "travel" diseases. does it travel better than some other ones?
though linanil you mention hepatitis is usually the worry when traveling. so maybe that is different because we actively vaccinate for hepatitis and maybe that is the same reasoning for the polio (im getting there, it's taking a bit but my brain is chugging along making the connections)

im honestly just curious about the WHY on these.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:40 am 
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helbury wrote:
I'm going to guess it has a lot to do with relative risks. The polio (IPV) vaccine is a very safe vaccine, whereas the yellow fever vaccine has a much higher incidence of serious side effects (and there is no malaria vaccine).



see now that makes sense to me. thanks.

chug chug chug brain making connections......

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:53 am 
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The only things we haven't done on the normal vaccine schedule (which I think the evidence shows is safe) is hep B and eye ointment at birth. We did start the hep B series at 2 months. It's not a secret that the hep B vaccine isn't totally necessary at birth for low-risk babies but is mostly done to catch babies while they're already in the hospital. We didn't do it because Scarlett was born at home and I'm immune, so she was at no risk of being exposed to it. If you're breastfeeding, your baby will also get passive immunity for at least the first few months of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:53 pm 
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What is the 'eye goop' you guys speak of? The only thing offered at birth here is a vitamin K injection [which we did].

Westiebaby is six weeks old today so we have our first doctor's visit and immunisations on Friday... I'm 100% in favour of immunisation but am still not looking forward to her reaction [as in how happy she'll be to get injections, not that I think she'll have a reaction to the shots].


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:15 pm 
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oncewerewesties wrote:
What is the 'eye goop' you guys speak of? The only thing offered at birth here is a vitamin K injection [which we did].

The eye goop is an antibiotic ointment to prevent neonatal conjunctivitis (pink eye in newborns). Chlamydia and gonorrhea are two common causes.

I refused the eye goop because I felt confident that I did not have either chlamydia or gonorrhea, but I understand why they encourage it from a public health perspective since there are many women infected with these diseases who do not know it.

Good luck with the immunizations, oncewerewesties! The first shots Lydia got really were no big deal because nursing was so good at calming her instantly.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:52 pm 
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yeah i think the main reasons for the eye goop is chlamidia and gonorrhea (and i believe you get tested for those during pregnancy?) but they try and convince you it's for "bacterial infections" and that the vaginal canal is a dirty filthy skanky place.
general practice in the 1800s was silver nitrate drops which i guess hurts like a mofo for the baby but now typically it's an antibiotic eye goo (sorry for spelling but i believe it's generally arithromicin). i think some places still use silver nitrate, at least that's what i read after my MIL was all like "ERMAGHERD DONT DO THE EYE GOO IT HURTS THE BABY SO MUCH AHHHH. SILVER NITRATE BLAHHH!"

i dont feel super strong either way about the eye goop but i think we will delay it for like an hour or so cause i do feel strongly about skin to skin and bonding time.

it does seem to be something you can refuse if you do feel strongly about it however.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:53 pm 
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I still think it's about route of transmission. You can catch polio from an infected person who travels to the US. You can't catch typhoid fever or hep A from person to person contact, so it doesn't make sense to give people in the US who aren't traveling the typhoid vaccine if you won't be exposed to it in the food here (you could be exposed to hep A here, though, which is why we vaccinate against it here). My sister who has traveled to Africa several times is innoculated against yellow fever.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:01 pm 
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ok that's another piece of the puzzle thanks!

makes more sense to vaccinate against a disease that can be spread through human contact even if it is insanely rare here whereas the other ones dont seem necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:50 pm 
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LisaPunk wrote:
it does seem to be something you can refuse if you do feel strongly about it however.


In most states in the US you can refuse almost everything related to both prenatal care and newborn care as a matter of healthcare autonomy and informed consent (it is kinda messed up that you can't refuse everything, but pregnant women and parents of infants regular have their right to informed consent trampled in the interest of public health policies).

In NJ you can refuse almost all routine newborn procedures (I'm not sure if you can refuse the genetic diseases screening, but I didn't want to refuse that anyway, so I didn't look into it), but you can't refuse a variety of prenatal screenings (like HIV screening in the first and third trimester) without instigating a lot of difficult craziness for your newborn. In NY I believe you can't refuse eye goop or Vitamin K. Every state has different laws and administrative rules (governing the practice of medical professionals and child protective services). No clue what the rules are like in MA.

In the hospitals here there's an intake form about infant procedures where you indicate whether you're consenting or refusing each procedure that it's possible to refuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:08 pm 
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i actually dont know what the laws in MA are either.
the eye goo and hep b my dr said they "strongly advise it" so that to me means you dont have to.

my husband read something about the eye goo written by a midwife/RN that said it's not necessary but if you're giving birth in a hospital it's a good idea since hospitals are just filthy with germs.

i believe there is some sort of blood test you cant refuse.
not sure about vit K. that one sounded possible to refuse as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:20 pm 
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I think you can't refuse the HIV test, bc the idea is that would put the providers at risk if your fluids got into theirs. And by can't refuse that just means that the hospital would reserve the right not to treat you, they couldn't give you one against your will.

I do think the flu thing that annasrobie mentioned is so interesting. Could you refuse the mask or the swab without being asked to go elsewhere if the hospital thought it was a public health issue?

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