| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:10 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 ... 45  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:54 pm 
Offline
Hearts James Cromwell

Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:46 pm
Posts: 55
I really appreciate the support and your sharing your experiences. For those who have given pain relievers, how long does it take to kick in?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 4:49 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2240
Location: Oxford, UK
We have waited for any signs of fever/pain before medicating, but that will change when we go for the third (thankfully, final) dose of the Hib/MenC. She's burned fevers of over 40C each time (104F!) so I will drug her before the jab this time. I hate the thought of her little brain burning so hot.

I'd really like to wait actually and get it done when she's older, but the effectiveness has only been studied in children who received the full course by age 2 years, so yeah.

Hoping we make it through the mumps section of the MMR over this coming 10 days or so. And then...a breath. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 5:35 pm 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:18 pm
Posts: 881
I think around 20 minutes I notice the medicine working when I give infant tylenol.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:03 am 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5358
Location: United States of New England
im really annoyed right now. BabyPunk will be 1 month this Friday so her next pedi appt will be her 2 month appt where we start vax.

my MIL is super anti vaccine and so far has mainly kept quiet.
we found out yesterday BabyPunk has some heart issues and now my MIL is texting my husband "suggesting" that we think about whether or not we want to vaccinate her and whether or not we want to "overwhelm" her system with all the vax in light of her heart problems.

i really feel like she's using the heart thing as a way to push her anti-vax crepe.
i was fully planning on talking to the pedi about if it was ok to still give her the vax on schedule because i dont really know how vax affect your heart but i dont really imagine it relates.

everything ive read about the whole "overwhelming the system" theory says that it really isnt true and you should just do them on sched unless you have a known issue.
to me the whole point of doing the vax on sched is because that's when they are most susceptible. i dont think im really comfortable delaying stuff like the Dtap, etc.

ugh. she drives me crazy.

im trying to figure out what vax are on deck for her 2 month appt. the dr said 3 shots and 1 drink.
i know she kept mentioning hep B which i may refuse as i dont see the point in it.
according to the CDC website there's 6 vax so maybe a couple are in one shot togethr?
according to CDC it's

hep B
dtap
hib
polio
pneumococcal conjugate (i dont think ive heard of this one)
rotavirus (this was the drink i think?)

ugh. anyone have any insight on vax and a baby with other health issues?

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:15 am 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8197
Location: Brasil
i have been there [i'll let you read my response on your original post] but i would ask your doc/cardio.
In the meantime tell her this: her heart is working harder than it should be. To the point that a doctor is giving her diuretics so there's less blood to pump. Wouldn't it make more sense to prevent a disease that could overwhelm her already-overworked system? There are medications used in treatment that you can't give to kids with heart issues. Wouldn't it be better to simply try to prevent as much as possible now and have less to worry about? I really don't see how anyone could argue against that.
It makes me mad to think that someone would think it better to expose an already-vulnerable baby to more risk based on an adult's preferences which may or may not be woo-woo and not the child's actual well-being.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:32 pm 
Offline
Wrote Dissertation on Vegans, Meat, and the Deserted Island Question
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:08 pm
Posts: 1674
I don't have any advice about how you should schedule the vaccines etc but re: the m-i-l, Lisa, I wonder if there's a way for you just not to engage with her at all about her vax suggestions. Like maybe not even respond to a text like that? Just because it's YOUR baby and you can do all the research and discussion with dr without having to involve your m-i-l...I don't know, I just don't think she should even be involved or giving you advice on this, but obviously she thinks she should be!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:25 pm 
Offline
Because Bob Barker Told Me To
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:08 pm
Posts: 928
Location: PDX
Speaking as a MIL, it would be thoughtful for your husband to thank her for caring and her advice. Then go ahead with what you're comfortable with, after consulting your doctor. She is part of your lives so try to acknowledge her, but that doesn't mean you have to engage to the point of arguing about it or even justifying your decision.

_________________
Formerly Kaleicious. I still love kale, but no more than lots of other garden greens too! Orach is currently my favorite.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:34 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
First, I am really sorry that Punklet has some heart issues, and I hope they all resolve easily and without surgery.

Second, I think that if she is texting your husband, I would leave it to him as to how to respond, because that is his relationship.

Third, You control the info train, so if you don't want advice, I say stop giving them information :)

Finally, as for the question of whether to vax, it sounds like a question for your ped and the cardiologist - how would her heart react to a fever spike or other reaction?

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:45 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3815
Lisa, I'm also sorry about the heart issue and hope everything resolves as easily as possible - we're all thinking of the little punkette.

If you know there's an area where there's going to be strife with in-laws, I just don't bring it up. There are certainly issues we don't agree about, but in general we love each other and we have plenty of other things to talk about, so why stir the pot? If you need to, say firmly that it's something you're figuring out with your doctor and that you don't have anything more to discuss with her about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:28 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5358
Location: United States of New England
thanks guys i have ZERO interest in discussing this with her and the text was sent to my husband and not me so i have NO plans on even bringing the subject up im just annoyed it's being thrown out there. it feels inappropriate to me.

and torque if it does come up i think your answer is a great one re protecting her from diseases that would/could put strain on her heart.
i actually really love my in laws they are very kind and caring people and are totally in love with the Punklet but they also drive me completely bonkers. ive never even figured out what my MIL has against vax. i dont think she is in the MMR/autism camp because all her kids were born in the late 70s/early 80s and i believe the last 2 of the 4 didnt get any vax. my husband is the oldest and according to his baby book i noticed he did get some vax. i feel like the idea of vax giving you austism is more of a recent idea so i dont think she is on that train......

the thing that confuses me is she is a nurse soooo.....???

yeah i dunno. definitely not about to engage in the convo about it though, just feeling cranky ;-)

ill definitely be asking the cardiologist about it next week though so i guess the good thing that came out of it is until she sent that stupid text i wasnt even think about her vax coming up. :-P

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:18 pm 
Offline
Nooch of Earl
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3734
Location: Bella Napoli
Babypunk's medical record isn't really any of her business. I wouldn't even discuss it. If she brings it up in person, either ignore it or say something like "thanks for the information." and don't engage. Change the subject if you need to. If you get a text or email on the issue, ignore it. At least, that's what I do with my MIL's emails and comments about politics, and it works for us.

Sorry to hear about the heart issues - I'm just catching up now on the PPK and that's the first I've heard about it. That sounds really tough--I hope Babypunk is doing OK.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:58 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
NPR did a piece on whether parents who choose not to vaccinate their children should be legally liable for any damages caused by that decision.
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/05/28/l ... ated-child

Quote:
A measles outbreak in the New York is prompting bioethicist Art Caplan to wonder about the consequences of parents choosing not to vaccinate their children.

He argues that parents should have the right to not vaccinate, but they should also expect to be sued if their child gets someone else sick.

He writes in Harvard Law School’s Bill of Health blog:

If your kid gets the measles, and remember public health officials are getting very very good at tracing outbreaks to their source, and makes my kid sick (can happen since vaccine is not 100% effective), my newborn baby die (newborns can’t benefit from vaccines) or my wife miscarry (fetuses are at especially high risk), then shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?

Caplan says providing a legal avenue to hold an unvaccinated person accountable for sickening someone serves two goals.

First, it provides a measure of justice for a family that is affected by an unvaccinated person’s choice. Second, the possibility of a lawsuit would encourage individuals to get vaccinated.

Ultimately, Caplan said, this is a question about balancing individual choice with responsibility to the community.


Lots of good links in the piece itself.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:00 pm 
Offline
Nooch of Earl
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3734
Location: Bella Napoli
I think that would set a terrible precedent.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:14 pm 
Offline
Brain Made of Raw Seitan
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:16 pm
Posts: 1217
Location: ATX
That would make me really uncomfortable, too. And how would you even definitively differentiate between people who avoid vaccinations out of true medical necessity and those who *think* they're doing it out medical necessity? It also seems like it could lead to a serious gray area and would be a way to further penalize the poor for not being able to afford vaccinations or for not being able to take time off work to bring their kids in for shots. Imagine if you could sue a restaurant worker with no sick time to draw on for giving you dangerous strain of Norovirus when you went out to eat?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:24 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5358
Location: United States of New England
we sure do like to sue people in this country!!

seems like way too much grey area!

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:29 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Those are really good points mandycoot! I also think it would be nearly impossible to prove proximate causation, which you would need to show to find liability. At very least because the vax itself is only 92% effective (as Caplan admits), I imagine you would have some reasonable doubt as to who got it and who spread it. I also think it would be problematic to have a jury have to decide an issue like that, which would be very complex and I would be concerned about findings for the plaintiff being based dislike for parents who don't vax and on sympathy for damage done to a child (I really am not a fan of the jury system though).

Just to be clear, I was posting the piece because I thought it was an interesting debate, not because I think its a good idea!

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:25 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2240
Location: Oxford, UK
Eek. What if the shots were just delayed for some reason too (like parental sickness), or if you were on an alternative schedule and then the "make another kid sick" scenario happened?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:02 am 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3815
I think all these "what ifs" are generally pretty well handled by basic investigation into the situation. One imagines that the point of the proposed lawsuits is to punish willful vaccine-flouters rather than those who have medical reason not to vaccinate (in fact, he seemed clear in the quote above that the point was to PROTECT those who have medical reason not to vaccinate or who can't benefit from vaccination for whatever reason).

I'm not saying I would agree with the lawsuits (although, I might, if I saw a proposed case more fully spelled out), but the objections don't feel like very strong objections. I don't know that people who are profoundly anti-vax would be swayed by a test case showing the real harm done by not vaccinating, though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:47 am 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Here is the thing. Every behavior has a cost to it. Either the cost stays where it falls or we as a society choose to move it to someone else to shape behaviors etc. So if A doesn't vax their children, who then come in contact with B, who is a NB, and B gets ill, then all the costs of the illness fall on B and B's family. At this point, you really couldn't show proximate causation, so there would be enough reasonable doubt that A shouldn't have to bear the costs, and at this point you really can't argue that not vaccinating rises to the standard of negligence etc (there is no way you could use a strict liability standard here). But if you could show that A's negligence directly caused the hard to B, then shouldn't B and B's family be entitled to some help in defraying the costs of the illness? And are we as a society better off if the A's of the world have to bear the costs, and as such are hopefully dissuaded from the acts that are within their control, rather than leaving B or the government to bear the costs?

Ariann wrote:
I don't know that people who are profoundly anti-vax would be swayed by a test case showing the real harm done by not vaccinating, though.


Yes but there are a lot of people on the fence, who don't vaccinate because they think its the best thing for their children, because that is what they are hearing from other "experienced" holistic moms. A woman came up to us at the playground and told us not to give L her last MMR, because it had wiped out her daughter's ability to sign and sent her from being a happy little 18 month old to being an unhappy child until about a year later. She had a new baby, who came along when her daughter was 18 months, but she didn't think that was the cause. So then B was asking me if we should refuse the vax, because he would hate to have L be unhappy and lose her ability to sign etc. So I think the anecdotal information, is both misleading and very powerful. And they're told that the diseases being vaxed against aren't a real threat and you can prevent them with basic hygiene

So there is no cost to them of not vaxing, especially because they're told how easy it is to use the religious exemption to get around the vax requirements, so it feels safer to them not to vax (because they don't think there is a real threat of their child getting the disease or they think basic hygiene will protect their child).

If you increase the cost of non-compliance, you're going to have more compliance. Not 100% but more than we currently have. So maybe there are some profoundly anti-vax people who will never vax, but the majority of the anti-vaxers I know are people who are doing their best to understand all the information out there (including the very passionate and sometimes very wrong information on vaccines (they are full of aborted fetuses! They are made on monkey brains! They will make your child sad and withdrawn! ADHD! Autism! )), and they're doing a cost-benefit analysis. Sending a clear message that vaxing is taken seriously and increasing the costs to them, is likely to shift that outcome.

Again, I just thought it was an interesting debate to hear, and the moderator does a good job explaining why it wouldn't work.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:24 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
tl;dr

Suing people sounds easy, but really, its quite difficult to move the cost (which have to be borne by someone) from where they fall.

So if A doesn't vax their children, who then come in contact with B, who is a NB, and B gets ill, then all the costs of the illness fall on B and B's family.

In order to shift the costs from B and B's family) to A, in a tort lawsuit, B would have the burden of proof to show:

(1) A's conduct directly led to B's injuries. This would mean showing that it couldn't have reasonably been anyone else and that it was foreseeable that A's conduct would place B at risk (which means that B would have to be one of the groups that we know are at risk - like NBs or the elderly. If B were a school-aged immunized kid and B's vaccine just failed to protect him/her from the disease, then the damage wouldn't be foreseeable.

(2) A's conduct constitutes negligence (no one has ever suggested a strict liability standard, because that is mostly restricted to product liability, so I'm not going to even address that unless someone here wants me to go into it (Guido Calabrese on Strict Liability is a great resource)). This means showing that A did something without "due care," which is defined as the amount of care a reasonable person would have taken under the same circumstances. So at the moment, alternative vax schedules, not vaxing your child because they were sick etc, would not rise to the level of negligence . And A could be deemed not negligent provided that A washed his/her hands or took other precautions that a reasonable person believed would keep B safe.

If B and B's family couldn't make those showings, by a preponderance of the evidence, then the costs would remain with them.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:14 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3815
Tofulish wrote:
So there is no cost to them of not vaxing, especially because they're told how easy it is to use the religious exemption to get around the vax requirements, so it feels safer to them not to vax (because they don't think there is a real threat of their child getting the disease or they think basic hygiene will protect their child).

If you increase the cost of non-compliance, you're going to have more compliance. Not 100% but more than we currently have. So maybe there are some profoundly anti-vax people who will never vax, but the majority of the anti-vaxers I know are people who are doing their best to understand all the information out there (including the very passionate and sometimes very wrong information on vaccines (they are full of aborted fetuses! They are made on monkey brains! They will make your child sad and withdrawn! ADHD! Autism! )), and they're doing a cost-benefit analysis. Sending a clear message that vaxing is taken seriously and increasing the costs to them, is likely to shift that outcome.


Yeah, definitely agree with this.

I've recently joined a few closed FB groups that are support/informational groups for either families with slightly non-mainstream parenting practices and one specifically for women with insufficient glandular tissue who couldn't produce breastmilk. The amount of quackery and crazy wrong information that is bandied about on these groups is really unnerving and people are making such serious decisions about their kids based primarily on some extraordinarily wrong-headed advice from internet strangers. It is extremely scary. It feels more risky to them to engage in "conventional" behaviors (like feeding a baby commercial formula) that there is actual data on potential risks than to engage in "alternative" behaviors (like feeding a baby home-made formula made from raw cow's milk, fish oil, liver, etc.) that there's no data on and no research on and therefore no established risks. The cost-benefit analysis is completely whacked.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:17 pm 
Offline
Brain Made of Raw Seitan
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:16 pm
Posts: 1217
Location: ATX
Not being involved in law at all, that's all very fascinating to read! Do you think it would also be a breach of medical privacy to obtain access to medical records in order to be able to sue? Otherwise how would you know the parents were being truly negligent and the child in question is unvaccinated for a sue-able reason?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:43 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5358
Location: United States of New England
it would definitely be a violation of HIPPAA laws for random people to obtain actual records proving you did/did not have your kid vax.
i would think that in order for this to be a easily suable offense there might need to be a law that you HAVE to get your kid vaccinated and then somewhere in that law would provide some sort of permission to release medical records in that instance???

I dunno. im not expert in anything legal so that may not be even remotely true.

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:54 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19105
Location: Cliffbar NJ
You're right mandycoot, you would have to prove that A had not been vaccinated (and it would be a defense if A had been vaxed and that A was one of the 8% of people who do not get complete immunity from the vax (I think that number was used on the interview)). I am not a litigator, but the rules of discovery do allow for some medical records to be provided, despite the fact that MD-patient confidentiality generally would protect them. Obvs A talking on message boards about not vaxing would not be enough, and it is so hard to compel people to give a sample, esp for a civil case (maybe you could test titres etc?).

But that point just underscores what a tough set of hurdles you'd have to overcome to show any liability on the part of A. And that is just the causation part, to say nothing of the negligence portion.

I do think that there are other ways to raise the cost of not vaccinating and I do think we should be looking to rebuild trust between parents and the medical community, because the medical community and Big Pharma could do a lot more to educate and inform. This weird netherworld on the internet where everyone is playing MD and telling people to try alternative remedies is completely unregulated and unpeer-reviewed, and I do think its a problem that people take advantage of that to sell their own products. When WAPF did their thing about telling people that homemade raw milk formula is better than vegan breastmilk, and you know people believe it, it just seems so dangerous and stupid. (but I have ranted about that elsewhere) :)

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:12 pm 
Offline
Discovered unobtainium
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 12251
Location: Dinosaur Stampede
We need to stop letting people get away with no vaccinating for no reason. When I was in school, everytime my shot records got lost in a move, I had to get every forking shot ever to attend school. No exceptions and military records are a bisque to get if lost. I got a Barbie Dreamhouse and a Barbie horse the second time my records were lost. Parental guilt...

What happened in the past 20 yrs that has allowed arents to choose and still send their kids to public school?

When I went to U Chicago, they made me get the mmr even though it put me in a coma as a child. I had to be admitted to the hospital to do it because I couldn't prove I'd previously had it or had had a dangerous reaction. Of course there isn't any proof, but I went from healthy to not breathing and in a coma the evening I got the MMR. My mom woke up at 3am, convinced something was wrong, and I was turning blue.

Access to vaccinations really shouldn't be an issue: almost every school system will provide them for free. It's rolled into Head Start services too., and that uses federal funds. Or the public health centers will usually do free shots for under 12 (still reasonably cheap or sliding scale for older unless it's a voluntary travel vaccine).

_________________
"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee
"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 ... 45  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer