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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:20 pm 
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when my youngest brother in law went to college my MIL basically lied and said they didnt vaccinate because of "religious reasons"
and somehow that flew even though it was a total lie.
it really irritated me they would just lie like that. i mean just come out and say you dont believe in vaccines for whatever reason you have (i actually dont know why she is so against them)

however now he is in dental school studying to be an oral surgeon so i ASSUME at some point he had to get some sort of vaccinations since he is in peoples' mouths all day. otherwise i am scared for our society

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Yeah, access isn't an issue when it comes to vaccines *except* when they're only offered for free on weekdays the kid isn't normally in school or when they're offered at some other location that is difficult to get the kid to. But when it meets all those criteria for easy access and people don't avail themselves of it, it is a little incomprehensible. We weren't allowed to start public school without a record of the right vaccines.

I've lost vaccination records and only had to get titers to check my immunization status. Was able to do that for the MMR (and discovered I needed a booster, so it was a good thing to do anyway) - this was about five years ago (needed it to work in a hospital) and my insurance covered the expense (the hospital covered the expense of TB testing in-house that I also needed to do). No idea how much that would cost to do out of pocket, thank you comprehensive health insurance.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Tb tests are usually $15-40.

The health center also apparently does TB tests for employment for free if you get a voucher from the employment agency. Only thing though--the Virginia employment commission closed most of their offices. The county I teach GED in has a high unemployment rate but no more VEC.

I'm cynical these days. I've found that the parents who want the best for their kids find ways to do what they need. A lot just really don't give a shiitake. I mean, I have single mothers with limited English who work several hard jobs who make the time to keep track of their kid and upper middle class parents who can't because they are going on a Hawaii cruise and will have to get back to me later (only they don't). It's really depressing how many parents are uninvolved and unavailable.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:11 pm 
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To be fair, a Hawaiian cruise sounds *really* nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
(like feeding a baby home-made formula made from raw cow's milk, fish oil, liver, etc.)

Oh, god, those formula recipes sound so gross. I was just looking at some the other day because it just seemed so wacky that anyone would say they are SO much healthier than vegan breastmilk, which apparently kills babies, rots teeth, and summons demons. My poor children are probably barely clinging to life!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:32 pm 
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annak wrote:
To be fair, a Hawaiian cruise sounds *really* nice.


It does, but if my kid were in very imminent danger of not graduating if he doesn't get in gear quickly, I'd find a way to work in a phone call or email around cruise plans. Kid was A/B first two quarters, now absent with a combined 8% for 3/4th quarters. I don't know what's going on and neither do other school people because the parents can't be contacted. They always have some bullshiitake excuse. Poor kid.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:14 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
annak wrote:
To be fair, a Hawaiian cruise sounds *really* nice.


It does, but if my kid were in very imminent danger of not graduating if he doesn't get in gear quickly, I'd find a way to work in a phone call or email around cruise plans. Kid was A/B first two quarters, now absent with a combined 8% for 3/4th quarters. I don't know what's going on and neither do other school people because the parents can't be contacted. They always have some bullshiitake excuse. Poor kid.


As an unrelated aside, there was a kid in our district who flunked 5th grade because mommy and daddy kept them out of school so much for trips and vacations that they could not meet the minimum attendance to advance to the next grade.

My university passed some rules about vaccinations and dorms after a girl died of meningitis. I am not convinced that fear and superstition gives any parent the right to put other people in danger.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Yeah, I've had those kids too. I've had others whose parents contact me in advance and get all work for kid to do and they ask for any science related stuff they could work in. Those kids are in great shape. Nothing wrong with going to Hawaii for a couple weeks when parents take you to historic and science spots and enforce all work done. Kid learned more than would have in school. Not the norm though, unfortunately. Parents also made the kid do a project for me. They made this a condition of her going on the trip and didn't ask me for extra credit or anything obnoxious.

(just an aside, any of my teaching/kid stories are swapped around superficially to protect the guilty (me!) so just assume I'm trading details for similar ones)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:36 pm 
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I think about this periodically because school schedules seem to get in the way so annoyingly with people trying to make port call visits. When the time comes I suppose I'll have a relative come out and stay with V and any sequels, but I do think travel can be incredibly valuable...but the attendance requirements these days seem so strict that it's not an option. I know the obvious advice is to schedule vacations around school, but we're already scheduling around the Navy so it will be tough.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Can't you get absences approved in advance? Our school has a form for things like that.

I'd think any school around military bases would be pretty lenient in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:52 pm 
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It's not an issue for us personally yet, but I think most people just end up not going or having relatives stay with their kids. But I'll probably try to get pre-approved when the time comes.

(I promise to spend vacations properly enriching V)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:00 am 
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I found this nifty little simulation and I thought you guys might find it interesting: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/index.php

It's a visual representation of the effects of various vaccination scenarios on a population - no vaccine available, highly vaccinated population, different rates of non-vaxers, geographical pockets of non-vaxers etc. Each scenario is generated randomly based on the same starting conditions, so you can play them several times to see how things might turn out.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:48 am 
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It's fun to play with, but not very realistic because it's ignoring these things:

- mortality
- births
- incomplete protection of vaccines
- natural immunity
- there are just two categories of unvaccinated people here, let's call them good eggs and bad eggs. The good eggs are babies and people with immune diseases. The bad eggs are willful hippies trying to infect us all. The reality is much grayer than that. People who lack convenient or affordable access to medical care. (Don't those head start programs have income requirements?) Parents who have been convinced a "delayed schedule" is somehow going to benefit their child or ones who just couldn't get a doctor's appointment that month and get a little behind, or are in the late range of the 'window' in the CDC's own recommendations. (This happened to me - Vi's birthday is in late summer, when it's extremely hard to get a pediatrician appointment because of all the kids going back to school. We moved and found a pediatrician, and couldn't be seen until she was nearly 15 months old. Still within the range of what the CDC recommends, but after most pediatricians would give the 12 month vaccines and I think there was a case of a 15mo bringing measles (?) into the country earlier in the thread as an example of the "freeloader" threat.)

Plus, I mean, at some point doesn't someone have to take responsibility for having an autoimmune disorder? Why is it my personal responsibility to actively seek medical treatment because someone else is, eg, HIV+? I get vaccinations because they benefit me, not because I want to contribute to herd immunity. I continue to think a much better practical tactic is to convince people that it is in their own and their children's interests to be vaccinated, not because they're contributing to some sort of vague social good.

That and free, easy, drop-in, quick vaccines (like at drug stores, say, or set up at walmart like the flu vax) without having to schedule time off or wait for hours in a waiting room full of sick kids, which I think is a much more effective step than hounding random idiots who believe everything they read on the internet. I get the feeling a lot of time that people aren't interested in increasing practical rates of vaccination, they're interested in railing against some theoretical threat.

It would be nice to see some of the simulations run with a) more realistic numbers, and b) taking some of these things into account. But I suspect the simulation would not be as clear cut/convincing then.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Anyone who can get vaccinated or who can vaccinate their child and does not is a bad egg. Period. There are costs associated with the benefits of living in a social group. Doing what you can to protect others is part of it.
I don't think that anyone wants to live in a world with as much entitlement and selfishness as you are suggesting.

The 15 month old child who brought measles back was on holiday in Africa. I believe that someone already pointed out that if you can afford a holiday to and from Africa, you can likely afford vaccines. Also, the CDC suggests vaccinations for children who are leaving the US. A 15 month old child could have easily been vaccinated.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:14 pm 
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annak wrote:
Plus, I mean, at some point doesn't someone have to take responsibility for having an autoimmune disorder? Why is it my personal responsibility to actively seek medical treatment because someone else is, eg, HIV+? I get vaccinations because they benefit me, not because I want to contribute to herd immunity. I continue to think a much better practical tactic is to convince people that it is in their own and their children's interests to be vaccinated, not because they're contributing to some sort of vague social good.

I am really, really shocked by this. If the choice is you vaccinate or the person with autoimmune disorder is basically confined to their house I don't even understand how that's a question. And beyond taking all the precautions that 95% of folks with autoimmune disorders take, how else can they "take responsibility"? That term, by the way, is eerily reminiscent to both anti-choice and fat-shaming rhetoric.

Frankly, I vaccinate FOR herd immunity. I vaccinate because I will probably survive whatever I get but my dad with asthma and COPD won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Head Start does have income requirements, but all the community and state places are inexpensive and sliding scale. I know they do the sliding scale after individual consultation, so they are probably pretty liberal with it. School offices have all this information, so when you go to register your kid, they will help. If affording them is a problem, they will help. Schools want vaccinated kids, so the help is there.

Maybe there are places in the US, perhaps more rural ones where it is harder, but around here, if you want your child vaccinated, it will be done.

If you aren't going through schools, finding the resources is a lot harder, I'm sure.

Remember when Perry got in trouble for having the state pay for Gardisil for all girls? Even a stopped clock and all that.

I know health care in the US sucks, but I think a lot of people who talk about the cost/access barrier for vaccinations usually also have a laundry list of other reasons why they aren't doing it. I would be very interested to hear real stories of people having genuine access problems. It would be interesting to see an incident map showing instances of outbreak correlated with these, because I'm pretty sure any access problems are going to be regional.

ETA: a single parent earning ~28,000 would qualify for reduced lunch for their child. That automatically qualifies them for almost all other aid programs. In this area, they would qualify for more because of the higher cost of living. (a teacher where I live makes $34,000)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:42 pm 
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Here is the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vf ... rents.html

The vouchers people can get from school probably cover the doctors visit fee. Or, more likely, those doctors donate their time. We have a list that do that for school physicals.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:47 pm 
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http://www.nal.usda.gov/wicworks/Learni ... nglish.pdf

That's the whole program brochure.

I just looked up my state. There are 900 providers for free vaccines. They can charge an admin fee of up to $21 per shot, which must be waived if they can't pay. Rural health clinics and public hospitals will probably not charge at all. The main eligibility requirement that is easiest to meet is being uninsured.

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Last edited by lavawitch on Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Anyone who can get vaccinated or who can vaccinate their child and does not is a bad egg. Period. There are costs associated with the benefits of living in a social group. Doing what you can to protect others is part of it.
I don't think that anyone wants to live in a world with as much entitlement and selfishness as you are suggesting.

The 15 month old child who brought measles back was on holiday in Africa. I believe that someone already pointed out that if you can afford a holiday to and from Africa, you can likely afford vaccines. Also, the CDC suggests vaccinations for children who are leaving the US. A 15 month old child could have easily been vaccinated.


A 15 month old could not easily be fully vaccinated against the measles. They could certainly get one jab, but they will probably not have full immunity yet.

I think Annak has a point that most people are going to make medical decisions that benefit themselves and it's pretty unreasonable to expect them to do any different. This is why we now have laws against smoking in public places - people would not choose not to smoke around others even though the harms of doing so are much clearer than the harms of not vaccinating. This is why we have laws against drunken driving. People go out to drink knowing they will drive home drunk. People act selfishly pretty much all the time and feel totally entitled to do whatever the fork they want with their bodies, even when it puts others in extreme danger. Hell, people don't even wash their hands after using the bathroom - most people do not maneuver in the world consciously making decisions with a thought toward the wellbeing of others. To think the average person would act more nobly on the issue of vaccines seems pretty naive.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:21 pm 
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The MMR can be given as early as 6 months.

I will quote Mumbles here
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I don't think we even need to invoke the language of duty to talk about this.

I'd settle for something like "It's good to get vaccinations if you don't live on a Saint-Exupéry planet."

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:23 pm 
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I actually tried to get MMR early because we thought we might be traveling. My pediatrician was very resistant to the idea of giving it early. If we had, indeed, been sent overseas I would have been more persistent, showing up at the next appointment with CDC recommendation printouts in hand, prepared to push shove and rail at whoever was necessary...but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that everyone will have the knowledge or persistence needed to confront a doctor.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:31 pm 
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annak wrote:
willful hippies trying to infect us all. .


Ha!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
I think Annak has a point that most people are going to make medical decisions that benefit themselves and it's pretty unreasonable to expect them to do any different.
...
most people do not maneuver in the world consciously making decisions with a thought toward the wellbeing of others. To think the average person would act more nobly on the issue of vaccines seems pretty naive.

Well said -- I agree. I like the idea of pushing vaccines for ones own sake because it's an easier sell. I mean, I don't vaccinate my kids for the good of the population or to help people with autoimmune disorders. I vaccinate them because I don't want them to get sick or die.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
The MMR can be given as early as 6 months.

I will quote Mumbles here
mumbles wrote:
I don't think we even need to invoke the language of duty to talk about this.

I'd settle for something like "It's good to get vaccinations if you don't live on a Saint-Exupéry planet."


Do you know anyone who has successfully gotten a pediatrician to give the mmr at 6 months? What should be and what is are not usually the same thing, and we all know that doctors don't necessarily have all of the right info on this stuff either. To expect the average parent (even the non-average, wealthy, access to whatever they want parent) to have more information on this issue than their doctor is ridiculous. People don't take their kids to the cdc, they take them to the pediatrician. Everyone in this conversation already agrees it's good to get vaccinated, for various reasons, but that message is clearly not reaching everyone and maybe part of the problem is how we're selling it.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Measles increasing in Pakistan.

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartne ... -epidemic/

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