| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:11 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1116 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 45  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:35 pm 
Offline
Nooch of Earl
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3727
Location: Bella Napoli
The following link is about polio, not measles, but it seems like a positive feedback problem in rural Pakistan: without good security for/trust of aid workers administering vaccines, the population won't get vaccinated. Without a vaccinated population, the security situation will deteriorate.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =186861446


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:45 am 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3567
Location: It's hot. All the time.
j-dub wrote:
annak wrote:
Plus, I mean, at some point doesn't someone have to take responsibility for having an autoimmune disorder? Why is it my personal responsibility to actively seek medical treatment because someone else is, eg, HIV+? I get vaccinations because they benefit me, not because I want to contribute to herd immunity. I continue to think a much better practical tactic is to convince people that it is in their own and their children's interests to be vaccinated, not because they're contributing to some sort of vague social good.

I am really, really shocked by this. If the choice is you vaccinate or the person with autoimmune disorder is basically confined to their house I don't even understand how that's a question. And beyond taking all the precautions that 95% of folks with autoimmune disorders take, how else can they "take responsibility"? That term, by the way, is eerily reminiscent to both anti-choice and fat-shaming rhetoric.

Frankly, I vaccinate FOR herd immunity. I vaccinate because I will probably survive whatever I get but my dad with asthma and COPD won't.


How about you answer J-Dub's question? Do you agree that those with autoimmune disorders are on their own? Is this sort of Ayn Randian world the one in which you would like to live?

Do you believe that we have no responsibility to anyone in our society?

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:43 am 
Offline
Nooch of Earl
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3727
Location: Bella Napoli
I never said anyone was confined to their house, no. I never said people are on their own, no. So it's a little hard to respond to accusations of what I didn't really say, and I chose to ignore them. But since you insist...

By take responsibility I mean they need to assume that they're living in a world in which not everyone is vaccinated (because they already are!) and determine what precautions to take accordingly. In their place that wouldn't mean being a shut-in for me, because the car trip to leave the house is probably a lot more dangerous than the potential measles lurking at the mall or grocery store or whatever. Maybe that means restricting travel a bit, maybe it means gravitating towards social groups with higher vax rates. And eventually people need to accept that a lot of the risk is just out of their hands, and maybe some of us get dealt a shitty deck of cards. There are plenty of nasties out there that we don't have a vaccine to prevent.

Shaming people has a negative effect on compliance rates in general (says Prof. Google). Contending that they should've spent every last dollar they own on vaccines and fully informed themselves of the latest CDC recommendations before, say, taking a vacation doesn't solve the problem that they didn't. Taking a moralistic approach to this will, I believe, do real, practical harm to those people about whom I'm being accused of not caring. I don't think the correct response to people who vaccinate their kids for measles *because they don't want those kids to get measles* is "you're a selfish crasshole, you weren't doing it for other people." It's "yay! Way to go the extra mile to give your kids a good start in life." I understand the temptation to think moralistically and judgmentally about it - at one point, I was a lot like that myself (and still struggle with that in other areas). I get annoyed when we go out and people get us sick (I've been sick more times in the last year, I think, than in the decade previous - thanks toddler classes!), so I get the temptation to blame. I just don't think it's very useful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:02 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1534
I don't think it really counts as spending your last dollar if you do it right before blowing a bunch of money on a luxury.

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:40 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 2240
Location: Oxford, UK
Vantine wrote:
Anyone who can get vaccinated or who can vaccinate their child and does not is a bad egg.


This is the sort of absolutist statement that only serves to further polarize people involved in this discussion. We're having the bean vaccinated, but I know many people who have chosen otherwise. I don't agree with the decision (in most cases, at least), but it doesn't necessarily make them bad people. Also, how far does this extend? Do we have to get every vaccine available to be a good egg? When we visit my parents, do I have to get the ones that aren't available here?

There are certainly a lot of tin-foil-hat types, but that's not everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:58 pm 
Offline
Not a creepy cheese pocket person
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:17 pm
Posts: 4041
Location: Austin
I think part of the problem with appealing to selfishness is that people who are purposely not getting vaccines for their kids are doing that for a selfish reason. They think the risk of getting whatever disease is better than the risk of real or perceived side effects from the vaccine.

Not at all related to the current discussion, but I think these billboards are adorable. They're aimed at getting adults to take booster shots for whooping cough, which most adults probably aren't aware needs to be done.
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:31 pm 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 1090
Location: 'Burbs of California
I think the only "bad eggs" among non-vaxers are those who intentionally depend on herd immunity. A friend of my sister's is like that-- she and her husband are very highly educated (graduate degrees in engineering from top universities) and thus quite scientifically literate. They understand that vaccines work and that they are relying on everyone else to vax their children for protection. I wouldn't call someone a "bad egg" if they weren't scientifically literate enough to understand this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:47 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19099
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I think its unduly polarizing to refer to anyone as a bad egg. I know plenty of people who don't vax and rely on herd immunity and I don't think they're bad people. They know how vaccines work. As long as its not illegal not to vax your children, then people are entitled to make whatever choice works for them and their families.

And I think refinnej brings up the great point of how many shots do you have to have to be a "good egg." We didn't give L the flu shot - are we bad eggs for perhaps inadvertently exposing someone who is immunocompromised to the flu because we weren't vaxed against it?

And for the record, the pertussis outbreaks, which are often blamed on unvaxed children, is more often due to the fact that the immunity conferred by the vax is of shorter duration than previously thought and adults who may have been vaxed in the past are no longer immune and need a booster.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:06 pm 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4729
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
Tofulish wrote:
I think its unduly polarizing to refer to anyone as a bad egg. I know plenty of people who don't vax and rely on herd immunity and I don't think they're bad people. They know how vaccines work. As long as its not illegal not to vax your children, then people are entitled to make whatever choice works for them and their families.


So you're cool with informed selfishness that has the potential to cause significant harm to other people and other people's children, and with people who are just fine with that potential for harm? Because describing people who are thoroughly informed about the risks to their children and other peoples' children as "bad eggs" seems like it's not harsh enough. Getting all huggy and trying to get them to vaccinate because it's more cute to do so or whatever (like that billboard) ignores the fact that they are actively choosing the potential for harm when they could have actively chosen to considerably mitigate that potential harm.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:13 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19099
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I wish we'd move away from blaming and shaming. The anti-vaxers blame the medical establishment and don't trust them and the vaxers blame the anti-vaxers for stuff no one has much control over. Its just not as black and white as that if you don't vax your kid, some poor immunocompromised person dies of a communicable disease.

I wish we had a single, reliable and unbiased source for information that was accessible and understandable. I wish MDs were taught how to inform patients without talking down to us. I wish parents were given clear understanding of the side effects and possible risks of vaccines and also were given a space to talk about their experiences without feeling shut down. I think the reason people like Jenna McCarthy have gone all over the internet is that they feel like they weren't heard by the medical establishment. I think a lot of anti-vax people are just reacting to the absence of support and the fear that that engenders.

I vax my child. Anti-vaxers often drive me crazy with their absence of logic and their "OMG FETAL CELLS AND MONKEY BITS!" emails. And I hate the Natural News. But I don't think scared people are "bad eggs." I'd rather trust that they are trying to do the best for their kids and try and set up a way to support them.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Last edited by Tofulish on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:17 pm 
Offline
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Toronto
No, it's not that black and white. What we do know, though, is that a certain percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated to confer herd immunity. As more people rely on others to get vaccinated we risk going below that threshold.

I do think it is absolutely, 100% selfish to not vaccinate when you safely can because you are relying on other people doing it. I have a friend who is immuno-compromised and she relies on other people getting their vaccines so that she doesn't come down with something she is unable to fight off. If enough people stop vaccinating that herd immunity is compromised her life gets a lot harder and a lot less safe. I have no problem pointing that out, again and again.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:\ Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:25 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19099
Location: Cliffbar NJ
You know, I feel bad for your friend. My husband is immunocompromised as well, and I have ranted here often about people who bring their sick kids out to play dates and to meetups, without telling us that the kids are sick. Because inevitably my husband catches whatever they have and is in bed for 2 weeks. We have stopped being friends with people who have done that to us too often. And yes, its selfish of parents of sick kids to bring their kids out in public. But does that really make them bad people?

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:26 pm 
Offline
Discovered unobtainium
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 12180
Location: Dinosaur Stampede
Thinking about immuno-compromised people isn't even unselfish. Many people become compromised as they get older or have other issues. You could end up screwing your future self.

_________________
"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee
"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:28 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19099
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I care about immunocompromised people and the elderly and newborns and the whole gamut of sensitive individuals. I really see my husband struggle when he gets sick for weeks from something stupid that someone inconsiderate brought around. But do I think those people are "bad eggs"? No.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:48 pm 
Offline
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Toronto
I feel like there is a lot of "well, people get to choose their choice" going on in this thread and what I don't understand is why those choices are supposed to be immune(!) to criticism. All choices are not equal. All choices do not deserve to be welcomed with open arms.

I realize that parents (mothers especially) receive a hell of a lot of unwarranted criticism and I imagine it might feel like your actions are constantly under scrutiny. I wonder if that's part of what's being triggered here. One of the harder facts of living in a society is that your choices are necessarily constrained by the needs of others. In this case, I (and others here) would argue the choice to vaccinate or not is ethically constrained by the needs of others. One certainly can choose not to vaccinate based on pseudo-science but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And it's not something I will ever support.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:03 am 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8055
Location: Brasil
j-dub wrote:
I realize that parents (mothers especially) receive a hell of a lot of unwarranted criticism and I imagine it might feel like your actions are constantly under scrutiny. I wonder if that's part of what's being triggered here.

I think that might be very true.

I also get to see the other side of the curtain- although it's a banana republic in other ways, Brazil offers free and simplified immunizations to all children, and there is NO part of people who do not vaccinate. there is simply NO anti-vax movement here. maybe it's because polio and mumps aren't so far in the past, or we have the threat of other deadly diseases hanging over our heads and making us remember. but vaccines are free and easily accessed by everyone- even if you live in a remote area, they are brought to you during campaign seasons by the military.
on the other hand, i know people in the US who didn't vaccinate their kids because they didn't have access to medical care. Perhaps they didn't want/know how to face the paperwork involved with Medicaid/WIC/school district/etc [and i can understand this remembering my childhood when we ate food that my father made "fall off his truck" but by no means would they consider getting reduced price school lunch or asking for any assistance, because that's not what was done].
We are privileged with information - I think the fact that we are on this forum at all indicates that we're not afraid to go online to look for things to educate ourselves, but not everyone can do that. In the case of these folks though, i think the "fear factor" that some wacko portions of the populations have becomes an easy justifier to not investigate/pursue the free care.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:24 am 
Offline
Not a creepy cheese pocket person
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:17 pm
Posts: 4041
Location: Austin
I thought all U.S. public schools required most of the common vaccines, with some states allowing exemptions for religious reasons. Which is why the vaccines are so often provided through the school. Are there states that don't require them?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:58 am 
Offline
Discovered unobtainium
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 12180
Location: Dinosaur Stampede
There are some states that allow parents to opt out with a minimum of fuss.

My state, schools have free staff/aides available in over a dozen languages to walk parents through whatever they need. There are really very few excuses here.

_________________
"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee
"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:03 am 
Offline
Flat Chesty McNoBoobs
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:41 am
Posts: 7524
Location: Portland
Tofulish wrote:
I care about immunocompromised people and the elderly and newborns and the whole gamut of sensitive individuals. I really see my husband struggle when he gets sick for weeks from something stupid that someone inconsiderate brought around. But do I think those people are "bad eggs"? No.


I don't know. We have no problems calling people who fail to perform other tasks for the benefit of the whole bad eggs (tax evaders, etc.). I don't see this as all that different. Public health is something those of us who are able have to "pay into" in order to both receive the benefit and confer the benefit on others. In my opinion, people who enjoy the benefit of these schemes but fail to uphold their end of furthering them are pretty much the definition of bad eggs. That said, I don't think calling someone a "bad egg" is all that bad.

_________________
If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - Mumbles
Don't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:37 am 
Offline
Grandfathered In
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Posts: 9602
Location: Seattle
But these parents who can, but choose not to, vaccinate:

Why are they choosing this? I think I'm still not getting this part.

_________________
Did somebody say Keep on rockin?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:46 am 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19099
Location: Cliffbar NJ
FootFace wrote:
But these parents who can, but choose not to, vaccinate:

Why are they choosing this? I think I'm still not getting this part.


In my experience, its been because they don't trust their medical professionals and "Big Pharma." If you have had MDs dismiss your concerns about vaccination as stupid, or your experiences with a side-effect, or treat you like you're not intelligent when you ask questions, it is hard to feel like they have your child's best interest at heart. And that is when you start giving more credence to pseudoscience and fears. And especially if you don't see measles or chickenpox as a real threat to your child, its possible to decide that you'd rather take your chances with that (esp if you believe that good hygiene will protect you (as many of my anti-vax friends do) than with a vaccine where it is unclear what is in it and what the side effects could be.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:22 pm 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:19 pm
Posts: 844
Location: Northern NJ
Tofulish wrote:
I really see my husband struggle when he gets sick for weeks from something stupid that someone inconsiderate brought around. But do I think those people are "bad eggs"? No.


Is Brett able to get the flu vaccine?

_________________
The blog: good-good-things


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:35 pm 
Offline
Bought A BRAND NEW CAR!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:47 pm
Posts: 2169
Location: Western North Carolina
I get not trusting Big Pharma, but I would rather keep myself from getting sick and finding myself yet more stuck to Big Pharma, when a one time (or couple time) inexpensive vaccine would keep me outta their mitts forever.
Just like I was really glad to get allergy immunotherapy shots, so that I could stop with all the asthma and allergy meds eventually. Yeah, they are getting more $$ now, but eventually, it won't be a problem.

_________________
Evolved a vascular system, so I went from bryophyte to lycophyte.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 pm 
Offline
Grandfathered In
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Posts: 9602
Location: Seattle
Right, so the people who can vaccinate, but choose not to, are wrong. Maybe they're not bad people (or eggs), but they're wrong.

_________________
Did somebody say Keep on rockin?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:22 pm 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4729
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
Tofulish wrote:
In my experience, its been because they don't trust their medical professionals and "Big Pharma." If you have had MDs dismiss your concerns about vaccination as stupid, or your experiences with a side-effect, or treat you like you're not intelligent when you ask questions, it is hard to feel like they have your child's best interest at heart.


If you don't trust your doctor, you should try to find a new doctor. And I say this because I think in a lot of cases we're not talking about people living in poverty-- we're talking about affluent, educated people who have that option. (And that's who I'm talking about here, not poor people stuck with the ridiculous US medical system.)

With all the information out there, if you DO have concerns about vaccination as regards autism and mercury and stuff, you HAVE been wallowing in the crazy side of the web, and it's hard not to just say, "Well, that's wrong" and move on. You kind of have to be willfully ignorant not to pick up SOME accurate information somewhere along the way.

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1116 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 45  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer