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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Dr Bronners, MD
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Interesting, I hadn't seen them.

Time to read some papers-- thanks for the links!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
As far as the sad case of the little girl who died of pertussis that solipsnation posts above, the pertussis outbreak is mostly traceable to lapsed immunity because people aren't aware they need a booster because they believed that the childhood vax conferred lifelong immunity. Here is a New England Journal of Medicine article that talks about the fact that even vaccinating your child isn't going to provide complete protection against pertussis. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200850 Vermont had an outbreak last year and many of the cases were in vaccinated children. It is useful to learn about vaccine failures etc, and we can't do that if we are focusing all our attention on those parents that don not vaccinate.

Finally, no one can quantify the actual public health risk in not vaccinating one's children (it seems like for the most part, parents who don't vax are putting their own kids at risk, which is problematic as well and worth discussion), but even assuming the very worst, the public health risk isn't as big as other things that we as a society really do need to address, like pollution (especially in poor, urban areas), lack of access to health care and preventative care, second hand smoke, unfettered gun ownership etc. That isn't to say that we shouldn't discuss it, but I am sorry that we cannot have a real discussion on the topic, as the OP wanted, without it becoming a few angry voices using strawman arguments to shout down the facts and careful arguments some of the posters (like Ariann and annak) have brought up.

I am very interested in the public health aspect and would love to participate in a discussion about that, perhaps in a separate thread. Personally, I would like to see a robust system of informed refusal - where we train MDs and other health professionals to answer parents' questions and spread neutral, unbiased information on the risks of diseases like polio and measles that many parents may never have seen- rather than having an unchecked religious exemption.


Well said.

The public health aspect and the difficult-to-quantify actual risk are things I'd love to talk about. I think the risk assessment piece is actually one of the biggest issues - people are not good at assessing risk and/or consider the risk of certain diseases to be under their threshold for receiving medical care (and again, I do think this is VERY different from other kinds of communitarian behavior - receiving medical care is a very different thing than paying your taxes and we should want it to remain a very different thing). I think Europe is a great example of this problem - most of their countries' vaccination rates are poorer than in the U.S. and they experience more measles outbreaks (the ones that happen here often come from people vacationing there), yet their vaccination rates continue to decline. And it seems pretty clear that most European countries have a stronger sense of it being proper to curtail personal freedoms for the sake of public good.

I also was doing some interesting reading related to measles outbreaks recently from the CDC - what was most interesting about it was how little protection was really conferred by being up to date on vaccines (making it more important to have higher vaccination rates, since you won't know if you will be one of those who won't be protected). High numbers of people getting infected were given the initial vaccine and the booster that are supposed to confer immunity to 99% of the population. I know from personal experience that 99% number might be a little off - I got the two shots as a kid (and I hear they now recommend three) and was found non-immune when I got titers five years ago. I got another booster, but who knows if that one took either.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:43 pm 
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P.S. My child is currently undervaccinated. We got her in for her 18 month appointment at 19 months. And she was of course sick then. And remained sick enough to not get vaccinated for another four weeks while we were coming back for follow up appointments. And then they said, we'll just catch her up later, starting with her 21 month appointment. Well, she's 21 months old today and we couldn't get her to the doctor's office today and possibly won't be able to get her in for another couple of weeks. Blerg.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Another PS. This post just came up on one of my parenting groups on Facebook:

"Well we have made ten months today. My ds has been exclusively breastfed non vaxed cosleeps and I couldn't be prouder even though I want to cry."

I'm gonna say for the record that Dr. Sears is probably more to blame for our undervaccinated and unvaccinated children than Andrew Wakefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:33 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Ariann wrote:
I'm gonna say for the record that Dr. Sears is probably more to blame for our undervaccinated and unvaccinated children than Andrew Wakefield.


Is that because you think the Sears Alternative Vaccine Schedule is too spaced out? He gives the same vaccines just over a longer period of time.
http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/feat ... e-schedule

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:39 pm 
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More so because the tone of his conversation about vaccines encourages strong doubts over the entire idea of giving them in the first place. The alternative vaccination schedule is not really an alternative to the regular schedule, it's an alternative to not doing them at all (at least that was the inkling I got reading his Baby Book).


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:48 pm 
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I did think it was interesting that the paper about effective communication with vax-hesitant parents strongly discouraged alternative schedules. I'm sure it's one of those things that providers offer/consent to in order to quickly end the discussion, but as the authors mention there's no evidence whatsoever to support doing so, and it actually increases undervaccination.. Not only there is the trivially obvious fact that people delay vaccination, but when you create a spread out schedule with more required doctor visits you reduce compliance for the simple reason that it is more difficult to go to more doctor visits.

Philosophically, it does seem like if providers are willing to allow their patients to think that later vaccines are less bad, they invite the assumption that no vaccines is even better.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Semen Strong
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When interviewed though, he says that his intention was to help parents who didn't feel comfortable with vaccinations get a better understanding of vaccines, as well as an alternative way to approach giving vaccines,so then these families who otherwise might not vaccinate could go ahead and feel comfortable with vaccinating.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Have you read his big book? There were skeevy feeling things on pretty much every other page. It was weird. We gave up on it quickly and went to a more neutral feeling book, but read his vax stuff a bit (to be fair, only in his baby book, didn't feel it necessary to read his vaccination book, where he might be a better champion of vaccines, I don't know - although, even writing a book about it from an "alternative" perspective is an iffy opening into unnecessary doubt). I think he championed a lot of great ideas (attachment as the basis of parenting - great, breastfeeding - great, no tearful sleep training - probably great for most) but I think he makes a terrible guru. I wish his ideas had been popularized by someone who seemed a little more science friendly and a lot more friendly to a broad spectrum of family arrangements.

ETA: The baby book was written by the whole family, including Martha and the other son.

ETA again: See this http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... -dr-sears/


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:48 pm 
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one reason i know of for alternative schedules for vaxxing is that in japan, they reduced their sids (cot death) to a handful of cases after they brought the (oh god, now i can't remember which vax it was but it *think* it was...) pertussis vax back to two years of age. because i eventually decided not to vax, i haven't kept that article. i will see if i can find it.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Nooch of Earl
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The CDC contradicts this fairly convincingly: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/sids_faq.html

The specific claim about Japan is rebutted pretty strongly with a cursory googling as well. Why do you believe it's true?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Dr. Sears' "Vaccine Book" actually convinced us to vaccinate! (I may be an outlier, though, who knows.) We live in a pretty 'alternative' community and know a lot of people who are anti-vax, and a lot of what they said really scared us during pregnancy so we had initially thought we wouldn't vaccinate. When I ended up reading the rundown of each vaccine in the book I found it gave a pretty convincing case for pretty much all of them. We did delay a few initially that I didn't find so important for him as a newborn (like Hep B) but are getting caught up now that Sven is almost 18 months.

As a not-very-relevant aside, I have pretty much the whole Sears library. The basic information is pretty good and we used it for a lot of baby care stuff in the beginning as well as the medical advice, but some of the writing just rubs me the wrong way... he's such an advocate of the traditional family model and the wife staying home, and even though that does describe our family dynamic, I didn't like that it is held up as a model of the "ideal family."


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:09 pm 
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mandycoot wrote:
but some of the writing just rubs me the wrong way... he's such an advocate of the traditional family model and the wife staying home, and even though that does describe our family dynamic, I didn't like that it is held up as a model of the "ideal family."


Yeah, this was our experience as well. And the fact that it didn't describe our family probably made it worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:34 am 
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Semen Strong
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I am horrified by people who willfully spread misinformation and fear. Also, thank you to FF for introducing me to Pharyngula.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... eationists

Quote:
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s elaborate conspiracy theory is just as delusional and dangerous. Rather than accepting the findings of the Institute of Medicine, the National Institute of Mental Health, or the American Academy of Pediatrics, Kennedy says the scientists are lying. He says vaccine-makers are intentionally poisoning kids and giving them autism. Only he and his fellow activists know the truth because journalists, although they may report aggressively on the National Security Agency, Defense Department, and Central Intelligence Agency, are cowed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:54 am 
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BabyPunk got her first round of vax this morning. poor lil thing :-(
she got 3 shots and the drink.

we'll see how the rest of the day goes but so far i feel pretty lucky in her initial reaction. i dont think the needles bothered her other than a startle. i wonder if the ones she got are kind of like the flu vax in that it stings/hurts going in because they jabbed her and then she started but didnt cry then a few seconds later turned bright red and started shrieking.

i was able to calm her down pretty quickly and now she's passed the fork out. i think i may need to actually wake her up since she hasnt nursed in awhile.

really have my fingers crossed for no reactions but i have my thermometer at the ready to check for fever.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:31 am 
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Congratulations on your milestone, BP! I loved that first round of shots because it was the first long nap V ever took. I got so much done in that 3 hours I felt like I was on top of the world! Now she takes a 3 hour nap most days and I squander it puttering around on the internet.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:46 am 
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Haha! Yeah I had to wake her up to nurse. So far she seems totally fine, not even cranky. She had a huge blowout poop and was grinning at me all proud :-P

I do wonder if later today or tomorrow will be a crankfest if her legs are sore from the shots

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:55 am 
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Nooch of Earl
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My pediatrician warned me about crankiness and gave me the dosage of baby tylenol to use if I needed it, but other than the epic nap V was fine. So you never know!


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Malka just did the epic nap. It was great. We went out on the town - I have pictures of her sleeping in her snow suit in her car seat at the diner while we enjoyed a totally relaxed meal.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Well we didn't make it out of it Scott free! We took an afternoon snuggle nap and slept for an hour or so til I realized I had to pee wicked bad so I took her off me and gently put her down. BAD IDEA! She started shrieking like I've never heard before and wouldn't stop & eventually I noticed the leg where she got 2 shots was red and swollen so I figured it hurt. I got out the baby pain meds my mom got me and when the dropper didn't have the same markings the dr described I got all confused and called my husband in a panic.

Hahaha fun! Anywho I got one dose in her and convinced her to nurse. She seems ok as long as someone is holding her nice & close so I know what I'm doing for the rest of the day. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:47 pm 
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A friend of mine posted an interview with ROB SCHNEIDER who is anti-vax. Who the forkingforkittyfork listens to ROB SCHNEIDER on matters of health?
http://www.naturalcuresnotmedicine.com/ ... nment.html

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Nooch of Earl
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Can somebody diagram this sentence for me?

Quote:
In fact, there was a recent 61 million dollar settlement for a child injured by a vaccine which has become common place according to the FDA's own vaccine side-effects reporting website as noted by TheRefusers.com


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Easy!

Stupidity subject, stupidity verb and then abject stupidity object

A FB vegan friend of mine posted this the other day
Quote:
You don't have to get vaccines! That's a myth perpetrated by pharma to make not millions, but billions of dollars from unsuspecting people who have been convinced that health can be found in needles with preservatives injected directly to your bloodstream. If that is not a toxic cocktail, that causes encephalopathy, convulsions, and shocks on some individuals, it says it on the package insert....go ahead play Russian Roulette with yourself and/or kids!


Apparently all these fearmongers share an inability to write clearly, which they make up for by their exclamation and allcaps usage.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:48 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
A friend of mine posted an interview with ROB SCHNEIDER who is anti-vax. Who the forkingforkittyfork listens to ROB SCHNEIDER on matters of health?
http://www.naturalcuresnotmedicine.com/ ... nment.html


What the heck?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 am 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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Quote:
You don't have to get vaccines! That's a myth perpetrated by pharma to make not millions, but billions of dollars from unsuspecting people who have been convinced that health can be found in needles with preservatives injected directly to your bloodstream. If that is not a toxic cocktail, that causes encephalopathy, convulsions, and shocks on some individuals, it says it on the package insert....go ahead play Russian Roulette with yourself and/or kids!

Yeah, fork vaccines, getting ill is awesome -- I'm throwing a Polio Party!

Seriously, I wonder why these people don't say the same about antibiotics. They're a cocktail of chemicals, too. With possible side-effects! And Big Pharma make money selling them!

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