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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Good HuffPo piece that pro-vaxers need to be as vocal as anti-vaxers are.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jj-keith/ ... 29948.html



i just came here to post that article.
this article really made me angry about all the anti-vax stuff my MIL continuoulsy posts on FB (OMG medical workers shouldnt be forced to get vax!)
im close to hiding her just because of it.

the article made me think about the fact that we took BabyPunk out into the outside world immediately after birth. i had her at Target at like 5 days old. we didnt know until 3 weeks old she had a fairly bad (at that time) heart condition so she was definitely very immuno-compromised at that point in her life.
the amount of fear mongering and misinformation that are making people anti vax is astounding.
and also i feel there are a lot of people who dont really do a lot of research but just decide not to vaccinate because they arent sure how they feel about it so they just dont bother.

uggghhhh......
i feel stabby now.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:29 pm 
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LP if your MIL is mostly posting from the same site you can block just that site from your feed - I did that with my sister's love for the center for vaccine awareness website. My life is so much happier now!


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:35 pm 
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oh seriously???
i didnt know that.

can you also block when they share from the same fb page over and over?

she shares like every single inspirational post she ever sees.

i actually love my MIL dearly but theres a couple things that drive me up the wall and her overuse of FB and the crepe she posts is one of them!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:01 pm 
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I had a patient recently ask me if I thought it was a good idea to take her 3 week old baby to a chicken pox party. Sometimes it's very challenging to put on your nonjudgmental face.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:33 pm 
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LisaPunk wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Good HuffPo piece that pro-vaxers need to be as vocal as anti-vaxers are.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jj-keith/ ... 29948.html



i just came here to post that article.
this article really made me angry about all the anti-vax stuff my MIL continuoulsy posts on FB (OMG medical workers shouldnt be forced to get vax!)
im close to hiding her just because of it.


Yeah... I have an acquaintance I'm going to unfriend when I get around to it (assuming she hasn't unfriended me already). I posted a link to that and it got pretty exciting. Most of my friends are pretty solid engineering and science people, at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:01 am 
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I liked the article's point that you have to delegitimatize the entire medical and scientific establishment to be able to say that vaccines are bad - because every single legitimate organization promotes vaccines. You have to enter into the world of Mercolaesque science bashing, where your doctor, Big pHarma and the entire medical profession is just trying to hurt you and take your money.

Today someone in one of my parenting groups posted that "She was doing research into all the stuff in vaccines and OMG it was so much worse than she thought!" So I posted that the CDC has a complete list of what is in vaccines and really there are neither spermicides in it nor parts of aborted fetuses.

I really dislike this whole section of "amateur science detectives" who do their own "research" using the Natural News as their main search tool and then make faulty decisions, while patting themselves on the back for being so educated and "not just blindly following along what their MD says, like the rest of the sheeple." If you're posting "Mercola says..."then you're just as much of a sheeple, you're just following a really dumb shepherd.

And overall, I just wish we could recognize that there is space for us to have real conversations about the benefits and harms of each individual vaccine that was calm, informed and rational.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:32 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
And overall, I just wish we could recognize that there is space for us to have real conversations about the benefits and harms of each individual vaccine that was calm, informed and rational.

I do agree with you, Tofulish, but I think it's telling that even in an open and relatively difference-tolerant space like the PPK, the various members who have indicated upthread that they have reservations about vaccination have one by one dropped out of this thread feeling there is no room for their views or voice.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:32 am 
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On a theoretical basis I think it's great to discuss it. But people not vaccinating at all is not just "their" choice. That is the main problem for me. They are endangering other people by doing so. I don't think I've been vaccinating since I became a grownup but not vaccinating your child is just, well, not okay.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:15 am 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
On a theoretical basis I think it's great to discuss it. But people not vaccinating at all is not just "their" choice. That is the main problem for me. They are endangering other people by doing so. I don't think I've been vaccinating since I became a grownup but not vaccinating your child is just, well, not okay.



So endangering people by not getting a pertussis booster is OK, but not vaccinating a kid isn't? Why?


(RE the topic of forced workplace vaccinations, I have mixed feelings on this.. My husband is forced to get certain vaccines even though there's no consideration for his individual risk levels. If he encounters anthrax at work there are bigger problems with our national security than his getting anthrax! But he can't realistically say no without his life becoming extremely difficult. That doesn't seem totally fair.)


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:25 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I liked the article's point that you have to delegitimatize the entire medical and scientific establishment to be able to say that vaccines are bad - because every single legitimate organization promotes vaccines.


Here's a fun roundup of Natural News:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews

I hadn't realized he was ALSO an Scientology defender. That's like frosting on the cake of awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:29 am 
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annak wrote:
VeganinBerlin wrote:
On a theoretical basis I think it's great to discuss it. But people not vaccinating at all is not just "their" choice. That is the main problem for me. They are endangering other people by doing so. I don't think I've been vaccinating since I became a grownup but not vaccinating your child is just, well, not okay.



So endangering people by not getting a pertussis booster is OK, but not vaccinating a kid isn't? Why?


Personally, I think it's mostly that they remind adults less about it. I don't think it's particularly okay, but it's not aggressively scheduled like early childhood vaccines (or wasn't until recently, when more doctor offices started sending out automated email reminders about stuff like that).

So I got one of those automated reminders recently, made an appointment, and got my Tdap booster a couple of weeks ago. It took about half an hour including getting to the doctor and getting back to work. My arm hurt for a couple of days and then stopped. Pretty non-exciting all around.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:56 am 
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What's kept me from getting new vaccines is that it's not clear anymore which ones I already got. I've got the little booklet but I know that there were quite a few times when I got a vaccine and it wasn't noted anywhere.
I go to the doctor regularly, like almost every month, and it's never been mentioned. I'll have to ask her next time.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:59 am 
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I just looked it up and it says that in Germany you should ask your doctor about it every ten years. So it seems the next time I should regularly get any vaccinations is in four years.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:11 am 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
On a theoretical basis I think it's great to discuss it. But people not vaccinating at all is not just "their" choice. That is the main problem for me. They are endangering other people by doing so. I don't think I've been vaccinating since I became a grownup but not vaccinating your child is just, well, not okay.


I think you should take care both of your health and your kids health. If you don't get your booster every ten years you are not protected against those diseases.

VeganinBerlin wrote:
What's kept me from getting new vaccines is that it's not clear anymore which ones I already got. I've got the little booklet but I know that there were quite a few times when I got a vaccine and it wasn't noted anywhere.
I go to the doctor regularly, like almost every month, and it's never been mentioned. I'll have to ask her next time.


They can always let them check for antibodies. They make a test and if you have none, they'll give you a shot. Maybe just see your doc and ask for vaccination recommendations? My doctor never asked me about vaccinations but when I told her I probably needed a few shots, she noted everything that was missing and then reminded me on a regular basis. Not I got everything I need.


Last edited by Mihl on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:13 am 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
I just looked it up and it says that in Germany you should ask your doctor about it every ten years. So it seems the next time I should regularly get any vaccinations is in four years.


You need a booster for vaccinations every ten years. But if you don't know when your last shots were, you can get them any time. (Again, probably with an antibody test first.)

Plus, there has been a huge and expensive German ad campaign for vaccinations in the last two years. Ads everywhere.
http://www.impfen-info.de/impfpass/
Right now the city where I live in is plastered with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:30 am 
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I think the HuffPost article itself was just ok, but the points about a) pro vax people have to be more vocal and b) seriously, every reputable medical agency is pro vax were the take aways for me. I always find the argument to vax to protect other people is not very convincing when you are talking about medical decisions for your kid. They are more convincing made to people who are professionally or personally in contact with at risk groups - teachers, nurses, etc are more likely to vax for the sake of protecting those in their charge, which is why the tdap reminder to new parents is well placed too.

It is getting tricky to keep track of my vaccinations, esp because I get a lot of them at cvs or walgreens and my regular doc doesn't really have a master list. I keep remembering I need to get my records from those places and keep forgetting. Even if it weren't just faster to go to the pharmacy, my doc rarely has vaccines in house, I need to get a script for it, go pick it up, and bring it back. That is kinda dumb, but it makes sense for her practice from a storage perspective, she just doesn't go through vaccines fast enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:34 am 
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that adults don't need to get vaccinated. I was rather addressing my hypocrisy. I last got checked at 17 but I will ask my doctor anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:09 pm 
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A friend of mine had a baby a few weeks ago and is posting "OMG Doctors push vaccines so HARD! I gotta do my research! Any crunchy moms want to tell me why you chose not to vaccinate?" I don't think that should really be considered research.

And ViB, you raise an important point, that the push to vaccinate shouldn't just be for children, but for adults as well. The pertussis outbreaks near us were attributable to adults whose immunity had lapsed, and then passed it on to infants too young to be vaccinated. B and I both got the DTaP when L was born, because our immunity had lapsed, but neither of us had been advised to get our boosters etc by our primary care providers. Like many others in the US, we have moved from practice to practice, so it isn't like any one place has a record of our immunizations. I really like the unified French system for keeping you up to date, no matter where you go.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:28 pm 
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She was getting so much awful "vaccines cause autism!" stuff, that I had to post something calm and rational. So I took one of Ariann's brilliant comments on my FB wall and redacted it to fit Leela.

Thanks Ariann, for the brilliance <3

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Haha. Glad to be of use.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:14 am 
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I cannot believe that people really just will say things like "Oh there are no longterm studies on the safety of vaccines. So I feel like its too dangerous to give them to my precious baby." And then they link to a video by Gary Null. There absolutely are long term studies on the safety of vaccines! Vaccines are constantly being tested! http://www2.aap.org/immunization/famili ... tudies.pdf

Its worth remembering that Gary Null (who made the video Robin links to) like Dr Mercola are both individuals who have made fortunes selling alternative treatments that have very little scientific merit. Gary Null made a supplement that was toxic and caused severe kidney damage. http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/null.html It really is so important to consider the sources of any information you base your decisions on.

I don't care if people choose to vaccinate or not, really, but I find it silly to base a decision on faulty information from dubious sources, and then pat yourself on the back for doing research and seeing through the entire medical-pharmaceutical conspiracy to hurt your child.

And on a related tangent, I keep seeing people push infrared thermography, which is Dr Mercola's cancer detection tool, rather than mammograms. http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:07 am 
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Ruby Rose wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
And overall, I just wish we could recognize that there is space for us to have real conversations about the benefits and harms of each individual vaccine that was calm, informed and rational.

I do agree with you, Tofulish, but I think it's telling that even in an open and relatively difference-tolerant space like the PPK, the various members who have indicated upthread that they have reservations about vaccination have one by one dropped out of this thread feeling there is no room for their views or voice.


If people have valid complaints (allergies, bad reactions to vaccines in the past, and stuff like that), I believe (but haven't gone back to check) nobody has given them a hard time. I seem to recall apologizing to somebody about that a while back but that could have been somewhere else.

But if people say they won't vaccinate for other reasons, like autism or "putting chemicals in our bodies!" or "We use too many drugs anyway!" or "I just eat a raw persimmon and a pound of chia seeds every day and breastfeed my kids and they won't get pertussis!" or "I'm taking my baby to a chicken pox party!" then there's not really a discussion to have.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Ruby Rose wrote:
I think it's telling that even in an open and relatively difference-tolerant space like the PPK, the various members who have indicated upthread that they have reservations about vaccination have one by one dropped out of this thread feeling there is no room for their views or voice.


I don't think the PPK is very difference-tolerant on issues like vaccines or homeopathy. There is a majority of pretty educated and smart people who will discredit anti-vax views, and I find that troubling on one hand, because I would like to have more of a conversation than posts blaming and shaming those who are not vaccinating, but on the other hand, its a discussion board and people should be able to post their views freely. I learned a lot from *madamedahlia*'s posts about why she doesn't vaccinate, and I wish we had a space where she and others could post.

I don't care if people vaccinate or not. But for whatever reason, it drives me crazy when people post terrible inaccurate reasoning like "handwashing will save us all!" or "the autism rate has skyrocketed from 1 in 100,000 to 1 in 80, and so of course it must be vaccines!" or "There are no long term studies of vaccine safety" or "Vaccines contain spermicide, industrial lubricant, dead animal and aborted fetus parts." All of which are things I have seen on FB today.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:19 pm 
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Okay, I'm going to over-quote somebody who sums it up pretty well:

Quote:
I think a lot of the exasperation and subsequent hate comes from the fact that it is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with a person who honestly believes that the CDC (An agent of the government that's trying to put in place the New World Oder and enslave us all) and other medical agencies is fabricating results and lying to the American people--therefore anything the CDC reports on cannot be believed.

And then we say, "Okay, there are government agencies that are corrupt or who sometimes manipulate the public, like the FDA or USDA when it comes to other drugs or what's in our food. I can understand your hesitation, friend. Let's look at the scientific evidence about how disease works, spreads through a population, and how vaccines have shown to help eliminate certain deadly diseases. Science is awesome!"

And then that person says things like scientists or the scientific community as a whole are lying to the world, making up results, or getting phony articles published through the peer review system because their results would support the politics behind lying to the American people and making us all into slaves in the New World Order.

And then they say that actually, some scientists have come out and presented "evidence" that certain diseases were already in decline at the time the vaccinations came out, so the scientific I am using to support my claim that vaccines are great, and effective, doesn't mean anything. Those diseases would have eradicated themselves anyway, so you're just an uneducated member of the brainwashed masses.

So, unless I have a medical degree and can explain to you how to critically analyze the evidence that is espoused on anti-vaccine websites touted by "scientists" who use fear-mongering and talk about things like "toxins" as if it's a real scientific and medical term, I can't really engage in a meaningful discussion anymore.

Unless I studied biology or even chemistry for 5 years in college, I don't have the skills to explain in necessary detail how disease behaves over time, why it's irrational to think that a disease can just eradicate itself within the course of a generation, and all of the evidence that supports the way we understand disease today.

And unless I have some kind of degree in a scientific field, it's hard for me to break down the process of science and scientific inquiry so you can understand that, while some corrupt institutions and shitty scientists make shiitake up and allow phony results to be published for political gain, we can still have confidence in the overall body of evidence that we draw upon to enrich our understanding of disease, vaccines, and their side effects.

Since most people aren't medical scientists or specialists in diseases, the conversation with someone who can just defer to the argument of "everyone is lying because X Person said so and conveniently presented evidence that wasn't peer reviewed by anyone to support their claim", the conversation quickly turns hateful and maddeningly frustrating.

To add to the volatile nature of this particular issue is the absolute moral and intellectual superiority that most anti-vaccine folks possess. Not only is the attitude rude and condescending, but it also suggests that this particular person doesn't want to continue processing new evidence to adjust and enrich their worldview. They don't want to consider the evidence, because X Naturopathic Doctor told them all they needed to hear about the scientific community.

It's a willful resistance to learning that aids in the comfortable superiority of people who camp out in the anti-vaccine crowd that makes trying to engage with them so incredibly frustrating that eventually both sides become absolutely childish because no real communication is actually happening.

I am so glad you have chosen to vaccinate your son.

Before I had my child, I was anti-vaccine too. Then I had a stern conversation with an actual scientist, who actually understands how to examine evidence and approach new evidence with properly tuned critical thinking skills, and she changed my view in one conversation.

I am all about questioning the dogma and belief systems espoused by the established medical community, particularly in the United States (over-medicating, circumcision, cry-it-out to name a few), and I am all about being an informed consumer of healthcare!

It's funny because I am considered to be a pretty crunchy granola mom among my friends. You know, the organic, yoga, whole foods, vegetarian type.

But....science! Mother science! You can be an advocate for "natural" living and also leave room in your life for reason, intelligent thought, and appreciation of the miraculous advances in modern medicine.

Thank the Gods I don't have to watch my infant baby suffer and die from diseases that are now preventable. Thank the Gods my baby won't starve if I can't breast feed. Thank the Gods my life can be saved if I start bleeding out in childbirth. And thank the gods that scientific evidence cannot be changed or influenced by the opinion of the masses.

Congratulations on joining the mass of people on Reddit who like to challenge conventions but support wholesome evidence-based medicine!


From here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Parenting/comme ... on/ccgoqtq

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