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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:44 pm 
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We got my child vaccinated because we don't want her to contract a disease that may be very unpleasant, may cause her lasting harm, may maim, or may kill her. For air and contact spread diseases, we also want to do our part to encourage herd immunity. We followed the CDC schedule because I believe experts are best equipped to make recommendations around complex issues. My local doctor is not competent to really talk about the value of alternative schedules, neither are any of the authors of books I've seen on the subject. I do have a science background and can do a little ferreting out of what recommendations are mostly public policy to catch the truly at risk who might not seek out appropriate treatment, and do sometimes make choices against recommendations if I feel at very low risk (didn't give Hep B vaccine at birth, didn't use antibiotic ointment in my daughter's eyes at birth). For the next child I will likely delay Hep B until closer to adolescence if there isn't more impressive research available about its long term effectiveness.

But anyway, chose to vaccinate to protect my child and potentially other vulnerable people in my community. I vaccinate myself against the flu to protect myself, but more to protect the very young and the elderly I am in contact with on a daily basis.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:12 pm 
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We choose to vaccinate because I feel like the risk from the actual diseases far outweighs the risk of a possible vaccine reaction (to the individual and to the rest of society). And I also believe that it's basically my civic duty to vaccinate and contribute to herd immunity. We live in a city where there are a huge amount of non-vaxers and we have pertussis outbreaks frequently. I have a lot of friends who don't vaccinate, and while I don't care to engage them in conversation about their decisions and it doesn't really make me feel differently about them, I feel better knowing my son has some protection since we hang out with a lot of non-vaxers.

Like Ariann we chose to delay Hep B (gave it at 15 months) and on our then-pediatrician's suggestion didn't give the rotavirus vax (he said not to bother since our personal risk was low, but now looking back I realize he is basically pedi to all the non-vaxers in town, so I'm not sure I would take that advice again). With #2 we will definitely give that one on schedule since the baby will have a lot more exposure to other kids this time around. And we're all getting flu shots next week.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Evening All, thanks for all your stories. Now we are talking about vaccinations!!
My own story, until I had my son I didn't really think about vaccinations as I had been relatively healthy, I hadn't been near a doctor in years prior to becoming a mum! Then he was born premature and so we were offered our first vaccinations when he was technically only 39 weeks( if you follow the maths) despite being born 9 weeks early he was fine and strong and my gut feeling was not to do it. Initially for a few months. And then it continued, and I started reading everything. All parenting websites, pro and against websites, you name it I read it. And maybe it isnT a scientific enough reason but the end decision was my instinct said.
I know that all medicine be that alternative or "traditional" ( though what came first the plant or the drug?) has a price. I know that the drug companies exploit us all, different prices and drugs depending on country or on health system. However, it is firstly up to us to take care of our health and decide what is right for us, what are our needs, our risks?
There is a lot of talk in the UK about the various flu vaccinations, I will post tomorrow, as I think it will be interesting to discuss. Especially about new vaccinations and associated risks over saving the health service money and herd immunity.
On another topic, I would love to hear other people's home remedies, any advice from grandmothers that you still use. I have many unusual Spanish traditions to share. maybe better in another thread.?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Okay, so your argument is that your gut feeling told you so?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:30 pm 
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It doesn't have anything to do directly with the validity of her opinions from the perspective of what makes a good argument, but has anyone else seen the news articles talking about how Jenny McCarthy is now appearing in advertisements to promote e-cigarrettes?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:12 pm 
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Ugh. No more Jenny McCarthy, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Nooch of Earl
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I'm pretty sure Jenny McCarthy died back in the '90s.

My grandmother's chief advice was to learn to type, because that way you could become a secretary and if something happened to your husband, you wouldn't be destitute.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Jenny McCarthy Endorses Controversial E-Cigarettes
Wednesday, Sep 4, 2013 | Updated 10:43 AM CDT
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Je ... 53261.html

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:38 pm 
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I think the divide between pro- and anti-vaxers is often that the people who are pro-vaccine act as though there are no risks to having vaccines and those who choose not to vaccinate have different levels of the assessment of the risk. And I don't think most of us are that far apart.

Vaccines are not "no risk" - your child could have a problematic side effect. That is why we have the National Vaccine Injury Compensation (http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html) fund, because terrible things do happen. Not very often, granted, but not never either.

The people whom I respect who are anti-vaccines, are assessing the risk of their children contracting a communicable disease and believing that the risk to them is very small, given their family's life style etc (not traveling extensively or internationally etc), and can be managed with good hygiene, and that the risk of the disease is outweighed by the risks posed by the vaccine. They'll agree that both risks are very small.

And I agree with that. I decided to vaccinate because I decided I would rather live with the risk of Leela having a side effect than not vaccinating her, and having her fall victim to one of the rare epidemics. I do think both risks are very small, but personally, I was more comfortable with one than the other, plus we live in an area where people do travel, and I would hate to always wonder if she was at risk, because she hadn't had the vaccine. And for certain vaccines, we have assessed the risks versus the rewards (Hep B, rotavirus, varicella) - and for Hep B we decided not to vaccinate because any immunity conferred by the vaccine will likely have elapsed by the time she is at risk for Hep B. For rotavirus and varicella, although they are not generally fatal, they are unpleasant enough that I would prefer to have L avoid them. There are enough shitty things for her to get without adding those to the mix. I have met people who said that their child did have a speech delay or a significant side effect - I don't know if they are right, but I know that they experience a connection between the vaccine and the side effect, and I am not arrogant enough to question their lived experience - and I can understand why they wouldn't vaccinate. If L had had a single bad reaction to a vaccine, we would have re-evaluated our decision to vaccinate. But she didn't.

The anti-vaxers whom I cannot respect are those who rely on faulty research, and when you point out that what they're saying simply isn't true, they act like you're an idiot being fooled by some giant conspiracy against our children by Big pHarmya, and if you'd only read their fifteen articles in the Natural News or by Gary Null, you too would see the light. I can't have a reasonable discussion with someone wearing a giant tinfoil hat screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!"

And I also can't respect people who are pro-vaccine who act like anyone who doesn't agree with them is a moron. There are legitimate reasons a person may choose not to vaccinate - like madamdahlia posted about upthread - and at the end of the day, unless you know exactly why a person is choosing not to vaccinate, it is silly to act like they must be an idiot. Of course, the minute they mention Jenny McCarthy, Mercola, Gary Null, Natural News, vaccines full of aborted fetuses and industrial lubricant and other bullshiitake, feel free to throw rocks and laugh at them.

Most of us just want the best for our children, we may differ on what that is, but I am really glad that each of us has the freedom to make up our own minds, with the assistance of our MDs and that vaccines are generally cheap and accessible. I would like to see more systemic support for adults getting vaccinated - especially for things like pertussis, where the epidemics are often as a result of people not realizing that their immunity had lapsed. I wish my MD would ask me about vaccines and put them on my radar, because I have no idea when the immunity conferred may have lapsed.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:28 am 
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annak wrote:
Finally hippie-blaming with some actual number-crunching to back it up (though as with all reporting of scientific journal results in popular media, the thing stated in the headline is not actually proven by the research done, but they have shown a correllation).

Hey, no hippie-shaming! I'm a hippie, kind of.
^ It's okay, I'm not really crabby about it, even my husband makes fun of hippies (and me, for being kind of a hippie). :D

So, kidding aside, what I really wanted to post about was the flu vaccination. I have never bothered because it only fights certain strains of the flu, so you can get it anyway, and I don't think I'm particularly high risk for flu complications. I've had the flu twice whilst pregnant -- the first time I got hit with the flu the day before I was scheduled to go in for a flu jab and then never bothered to reschedule. The second time I was pregnant with the flu, it was really mild. I was going to get the flu jab anyway, at the same time I got my pertussis jab (I didn't want to get the flu jab in the first trimester), but by that time, flu season was over. Doh!

I have a friend who is a doctor and very pro-vaccine, but she doesn't get the flu vaccine herself. She said it's probably not a big deal to get flu vaccines, but also sent me this article (because the vaccines they're offering us are also h1n1 vaccines): http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=health&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57574185/h1n1-flu-vaccine-tied-to-higher-risk-of-guillain-barre-syndrome/&catid=57574185 She said there was an outbreak of this from flu shots in the 70s and so they changed the way they made the vaccine and things were better (until the h1n1, I guess), but she says Guillian-Barre syndrome is pretty bad.

Anyway, what do you guys all think about the flu vaccine? I'm not against it, just not interested in us getting it. I got a letter saying Raygold and I were considered high risk (no idea why for me, but I guess they're going to start offering the flu vaccine to all children now, starting with 2-3 year olds this year) and I am encouraged to get it this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:41 am 
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when i worked with the public, i got the flu shot (and for my work had to have my Hep B and TB proven every year too, I think all teachers have to do that in the US); I never knew who I would come into contact with, and after having to get it for my daughter, I was a little more aware of the fact that it wasn't for me, it was for the people I worked with.

nowadays I don't because I really don't feel a need to, but having traveled here and being exposed to new viruses and all i am considering it. especially since my mom works in a doctor's office (brings home all sorts of nasties) and the kid is in school sharing germs with hundreds of kids.

funnily enough my mom needs it (health service worker, over 60), but she resists because she swears up and down it makes her sick. we've talked about dead/live virus vaccinations etc etc but that old myth seems to die hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:43 am 
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Honestly, we don't work with the public either, so we normally don't get the flu shot and hadn't for years pre-kids, but each of my kids were/are going to be born right in the middle of flu season, so we are doing it for all of us during the baby years. I also just don't want to get the flu in my third trimester when I already feel like dying. I've already had Norovirus/viral gastroenteritis twice this pregnancy and three times this year so I'm done being sick!! Once our kids are in some kind of child care or school I'll probably get back on the flu shot train.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:50 am 
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I think I had a flu shot the last couple years, but before that I didn't usually bother. I didn't really interact much with old people or kids at all since I didn't work outside the home, my husband is always forced to get one, and it just didn't seem like I was high risk. Since V was born I've gotten her one and gotten it for myself at the same time - I spend a lot more time around little kids now and I've been sick more in the last year than I have in all the, like, ten years prior combined.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:08 pm 
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i struggle with the idea of the flu shot. pre-baby i was against it for healthy adults (ie me)
i got it twice because my mom is an infection control nurse and a flu shot pusher.
i get super sick every holiday season (not the flu just a cold that wont go away) and she told me it would help build up my immunity in general.

the first year i got it i never got sick. it was a major miracle.
the next year i begrudgingly got it again and im pretty sure i ended up getting the actual flu.

actually i think i got the shot three times because i think i got it when i was pregnant. also got sick that holiday season.

my husband pretty much refuses to get the shot and i was fine with that before. now that we have a baby that will still be under a year old this winter im not sure what i think.
i think maybe it will be smart to do it for her sake. not sure my husband will get on board though.

here is my one totally uneducated question about the flu shot.
i know it is a different strain every year but if everyone is getting the flu shot and the virus keeps mutating to a different stronger strain arent we overall just creating a super flu or did i totally fall for the anti vax science fiction version of this?

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:03 pm 
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I don't think we are creating super flu (immunization is not what causes viruses to mutate), but I am more interested in how being vaccinated against certain strains holds up - am I still immune to those strains a year later, five years later? Because if so, I'd think getting the shot every year would lead to greater and greater immunity against the random strains each year's shot may not cover. Right?


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:08 pm 
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LisaPunk wrote:
i know it is a different strain every year but if everyone is getting the flu shot and the virus keeps mutating to a different stronger strain arent we overall just creating a super flu or did i totally fall for the anti vax science fiction version of this?

The strain doesn't get stronger every year. The flu virus isn't adapting to flu vaccines the way that some organisms have adapted to survive antibiotics. It's just an organism that changes often. Otherwise, flu shot or no flu shot, everyone would get the flu once and be immune afterwords (like chickenpox). Just like the cold virus changes, so even though you caught the common cold, you're not immune to every strain of the common cold.

Here's the CDC explanation: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:26 pm 
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TheCrabbyCrafter wrote:
I have a friend who is a doctor and very pro-vaccine, but she doesn't get the flu vaccine herself. She said it's probably not a big deal to get flu vaccines, but also sent me this article (because the vaccines they're offering us are also h1n1 vaccines): http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=health&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57574185/h1n1-flu-vaccine-tied-to-higher-risk-of-guillain-barre-syndrome/&catid=57574185 She said there was an outbreak of this from flu shots in the 70s and so they changed the way they made the vaccine and things were better (until the h1n1, I guess), but she says Guillian-Barre syndrome is pretty bad.


I looked at the Lancet article cited, and they state there were "1.6 excess cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome per million people vaccinated", their conclusion being "In view of the morbidity and mortality caused by 2009 H1N1 influenza and the effectiveness of the vaccine, clinicians, policy makers, and those eligible for vaccination should be assured that the benefits of inactivated pandemic vaccines greatly outweigh the risks." The refer specifically to the 2009 monovalent vaccine administered in the US, i.e. not the one in use now.

This slightly more recent paper argues that the slightly increased risk can be explained by antecedent infections (the flu itself can cause GBS):
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0067185

LisaPunk wrote:
here is my one totally uneducated question about the flu shot.
i know it is a different strain every year but if everyone is getting the flu shot and the virus keeps mutating to a different stronger strain arent we overall just creating a super flu or did i totally fall for the anti vax science fiction version of this?

The virus will change its surface proteins regardless of vaccines, simply because, as an RNA virus, it is very prone to accumulating errors when it replicates. It can also "mix and match" pieces with other flu viruses if they happen to be in the same host. Any version that the population doesn't yet have immunity to will have a selective advantage and spread more easily. With flu, you also have the involvement of non-human hosts where it replicates, accumulates errors, etc. This is not the same thing as "becoming stronger". More like "donning a different disguise" every year.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:57 pm 
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thanks for the explanations! so many smart sciency people on the ppk!
i think i was thinking of the antibiotics thing!

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Agreed with what Tofulish is saying about the two extremes. When people start talking about vaccines being the equivalent of "poisoning" my child then, pah. On the other side, the pro-vaccine crowd sometimes seems to have the mantra of "just do it". We started researching (on PubMed, the AMA's site and the library, for starters) before Freya was born, so I didn't just pull the idea of selective vaccination out of my asparagus. There seemed to be no concrete evidence for long-term devastating side effect (things like autism), outside of very rare situations like allergies to preservatives and things like that. There was some literature though to suggest that side effects were fewer when reducing the number of vaccines (not just jabs, but vaccines) at once, and that perhaps starting at 8 weeks wasn't necessary for some babies. Also, some vaccines (such as varicella and HPV) are newer than others and so have less information available about them.

I posted about this on FB too recently, that it's very frustrating to feel that your complaint about a side effect is being dismissed. One of F's jabs was just awful. There was no warning from the doctor, in the literature that came from the nurse, or in any website (NHS, vaccine mfr, etc.) that we could find. A call to the doctor resulted in "she's fine, it's just the jab. Call us back if she's doesn't get better in a couple of days). Later, I found a place on the NHS trust's site to report vaccine reactions, but what if you didn't know about that? How many reactions are going unreported? I don't mean in the big conspiracy sort of way, but just due to disorganization and incompetence.

wrt country differences, they are fairly significant I think from the US to here. Rotavirus, HepB and varicella are all absent from the NHS schedule. A MenC vaccine is available and recommended though. The flu vaccine is not given here routinely either, to infants.

NHS schedule: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinatio ... edule.aspx
CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/h ... scent.html

I wish that there could be a big more respect going around for those who don't choose to follow the "normal" schedule yet don't fall into the tin-foil hat category.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:32 am 
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KateSpain wrote:
On another topic, I would love to hear other people's home remedies, any advice from grandmothers that you still use.


My grandmother's home remedy for polio was matzoh ball soup.

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 am 
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I feel bad for laughing so much, lepelaar. <3

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:37 am 
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Hi all, I think I will start a separate granny remedy thread!!!! If only soup were the cure for all!! Haha!
I want to say that I am not anti vaccine, I made an informed choice for our family. Like someone else said we are all probably not that far apart really.
Thanks all for interesting comments and debate, I love sharing ideas and view.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:17 am 
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annak wrote:
I'm pretty sure Jenny McCarthy died back in the '90s.

My grandmother's chief advice was to learn to type, because that way you could become a secretary and if something happened to your husband, you wouldn't be destitute.


My grandmother's advice was not to learn to type, because once people knew you could type, they'd make you be a secretary, and you wouldn't be given a chance for a better job.


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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:02 am 
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so my mother in law regulary posts anti-vax articles on fb. lately its been anti flu vax ones and today she posted some artice that 23 seniors died after receiving the flu shot this year.

so someone commented "i dont know what to thin of this article, some of us die trying to tie our shoes"

AHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA

i want that person to be my new best friend

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 Post subject: Re: Can we talk about vaccinations here?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:36 pm 
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A sort of side note:

Those Lists of Papers Claiming That Vaccines Cause Autism: They Don't Show What They Claim (Part 1)

http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_d ... art-1.html

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