| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:51 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:03 pm 
Offline
Should Write a Goddam Book Already
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:32 pm
Posts: 1009
Location: Michigan
The comments on the Binter article in Marie Clare are actually pretty right on in my opinion. It was suprising to read that other people thought that there were many issues in the article as you all have stated here, since comment reading is usually a bad idea on opinion pieces.

It kind of disgusts me that she assumes that just because a women may be educated and then have children and then not work in her field at the time or forever even, that it is some kind of "intellectual dowry". What happened to being educated for your own sake, and how is it a dowry? She personally knows that each one of these men has chosen their partner based on her brain and diplomas, just so he can make her sit at home and make baby food or something? So many assumptions, most of them based on her own conclusions that for a baby to eat homemade food or wear cloth diapers, the woman must take care of all of that, which I think does a great disservice to the abilities of fathers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:08 pm 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3565
Location: It's hot. All the time.
One thing to think about is that NOW was only founded in 1966. One of it's first missions was to end sex segregation in job advertising. The EEOC had ruled it permissible. Some employers had rules about how much weight a woman could lift. Abortion was still illegal and NOW was the first national organization to call for making abortion legal. It was 1975 before the US military academies opened up to women. Rape shield laws didn't exist until the late 70's.
We still don't have the ERA, abortion laws are threatened, there are precious few women in the top levels of government and corporate America, and wage inequality still exists.
For the women who fought for these rights and lived through these battles, hearing that women should devote much of their time and energy to time intensive child rearing must sound like a throwback to a time when there were no other options. To pretend that you can leave the work force and return with no consequences is unrealistic. To pretend that having fewer women in management and other places of power has no impact on the place of women in society as a whole is also unrealistic.
Also, the move is towards "natural motherhood;" most of this burden is placed upon women. Most studies show that women, whether they work outside the home or not, still bear more of the housework and child rearing tasks. (Personal anecdotes do not change this. ) The argument that there is a subtle and not-so-subtle pressure put on women to live up to some new ideal of motherhood is valid.

Everyone should choose what is right for them, of course, but systemic sexism still keeps women from many of the places of power and that has consequences for families, children, and civil rights.

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:01 pm 
Offline
Married to the wolfman
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 5958
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
^ Oh yeah, I understand the basis for that sort of feminism entirely. I just think it's outdated and bizarre.

It's like saying: the patriarchy wants you to do foo, so you have to do bar instead. Even if what you really want to be doing is foo. You HAVE to do bar or you're not doing your part to fight the patriarchy.

But you know, I don't feel like I always need to be doing my part to fight anybody. I want to just live my life the way that's right for me at any point in time-- the way most men do. (Yes, yes, men are trapped by society's pre-defined roles and whatnot too, but I'd argue to a much lesser extent, and that's a totally separate post.)

I think it's ridiculous to limit a person's choices based on their gender, regardless of whether the limiting is being done by a man ("you're a woman! you have to be a baby factory and stay home and wash the diapers!") or by other women ("if you decide to have kids and stay home with them, you're a sex-traitor! you need to do your part for womankind and be out there being a positive example of what a woman can be!"). Which's what old school feminism of the sort that Badinter represents often comes across as to me.

_________________
"Hummus; a gentleman's vice." -- Mars

coldandsleepy cooks, THE BLOG!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:20 pm 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3565
Location: It's hot. All the time.
Who exactly is limiting your choices? I don't really understand what you are saying. She said that if you enjoyed it, found it fulfilling, you should do it. What she appears to be disagreeing with is creating attachment parenting as an ideal when there are alternatives that are as valid and when that kind of intensive parenting does have costs for women that are not discussed.

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:24 pm 
Offline
Just Loathin' Around!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:17 pm
Posts: 7263
Location: bindlestiff
I love me some 1960s and 70s feminism. I don't think it is possible for us youth today to really understand where they were coming from and how radical an idea it was to declare that women were indeed people too, with identities separate from a father, husband or child and that women could be someone other than a wife and mother without being labeled a pathetic lonely spinster who surely only really wanted them a man. I think a lot of people view that as a judgement if they want to be a wife and mother but I don't think that was the whole dang point. As someone who will never identify as either I thank those 70s feminists for making it possible for me to choose other.

_________________
Ovoids=not vegan --invictus

Panda With Cookie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 2:30 pm 
Offline
Married to the wolfman
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 5958
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Vantine wrote:
Who exactly is limiting your choices? I don't really understand what you are saying. She said that if you enjoyed it, found it fulfilling, you should do it. What she appears to be disagreeing with is creating attachment parenting as an ideal when there are alternatives that are as valid and when that kind of intensive parenting does have costs for women that are not discussed.


I wasn't saying that Badinter literally said that anywhere in that article. I said, that's how older school feminism often comes across to me.

_________________
"Hummus; a gentleman's vice." -- Mars

coldandsleepy cooks, THE BLOG!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:50 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:13 pm
Posts: 2373
I love me some old school feminism, too, but I really think the whole argument at this point should be about what needs to change for fathers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 10:40 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3793
Butternut wrote:
I love me some old school feminism, too, but I really think the whole argument at this point should be about what needs to change for fathers.


+1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:10 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
coldandsleepy wrote:
Vantine wrote:
Who exactly is limiting your choices? I don't really understand what you are saying. She said that if you enjoyed it, found it fulfilling, you should do it. What she appears to be disagreeing with is creating attachment parenting as an ideal when there are alternatives that are as valid and when that kind of intensive parenting does have costs for women that are not discussed.


I wasn't saying that Badinter literally said that anywhere in that article. I said, that's how older school feminism often comes across to me.


Badinter doesn't really say that "if you enjoy it, find it fulfilling, you should do it." If you read the article that the OP put up, she says that women who choose to stay home with their kids and "natural" parent are infantile (because they are choosing a short term benefit over the long term costs to their careers) and reverting to being animals, at the cost of their own financial independence. And then she says that she is concerned that a mother spending too much time with her child is bad for the child

Marie Claire interview with Badinter wrote:
The gains of the previous century—epidurals, bottle-feeding, disposable diapers—allowed women to reconcile their roles as mothers with the necessity of being financially independent. This 21st-century project of naturalism, which makes the female into an animal again, is a rejection of those gains


Marie Claire interview with Badinter wrote:
These women don't see beyond the next three years. I'm stupefied when I say to them, "If you completely quit working, do you think that in three years it's going to be easy to find an equivalent job?" And it's this absence of vision in the middle of their lives that I find infantile. I'll say it: infantile. It doesn't give me any pleasure to say that.


Marie Claire interview with Badinter wrote:
Learning to get along without their mother is good for children. ... I'm also concerned about the effects of the long-term fusion between a mother and child beyond the first few months. I'm afraid that this fusion will impact children in a way that we can't measure today.


Marie Claire interview with Badinter wrote:
Don't ever give up your economic independence. Don't give up your job. You must be able to survive without a man. Because if you no longer get along with your partner or he treats you badly and you don't have the means to leave him, you're enslaved.


The TL;DR of her interview is that women must always remain financially independent so that they are never at the mercy of their (male) partners.

And I think its a bit sad to come from a place where you can't make a decision as a couple with integrated finances and financial goals and where you can't trust your partner not to leave you or treat you badly.

And I for one am financially independent AND I breastfeed, cloth-diaper and didn't have an epidural. My choices don't make me infantile or an animal. I am a smart, educated woman who made a solid 6 figure salary for long enough to be able to now make an intelligent and considered decision about what is best for me and my child. I'm not "enslaved" by my choices.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:37 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3793
The most irritating part of her argument is that women need technological "gains" to become human. We are not naturally human (i.e. persons just like men are), but are just hanging on to our status as humans by submitting to epidurals, giving up breastfeeding and strong attachments to our children, etc. What I take that to mean is that we should remain at the same distance from our children as their fathers do, because men set the appropriate standards for human behavior and interaction.

I don't really understand the lumping of no-epidural, breastfeeding, cloth diapering, etc. unless the idea is that all of those things are supposed to be "natural." I wanted to avoid an epidural because I wanted to stay in control of my labor and not feel trapped in a bed, because I know that feeling trapped makes me panic and is psychologically way bad news for me (in the end an epidural is probably what allowed me to have a vaginal birth at all, but it was still really bad psychologically for me). I don't really see that as being connected to my desire to breastfeed, but I think some people make choices about individual issues individually and others make choices about groups of issues ideologically and she's arguing against the latter group I suppose.

I think the phrase she's looking for instead of "infantile" to describe people who don't get that the short-term benefit of staying at home will have long-term negative implications for their career is "stupid as fork." But I don't know any parent who is spending time at home who doesn't know that that's going to affect their future career path, so I don't know what mythical people she's talking about.

Personally, I would never, ever, ever have quit my job post-baby unless I was physically or psychologically disabled and really couldn't work. Financial independence is crucial to me. And even though I think I'm a lot better at being a partner and being vulnerable in a relationship than my feminist mother is/was, the lesson she taught me about being able to take care of myself no matter what happens is a lesson I can't and don't want to shake. Being without a partner is not something I foresee happening, but that doesn't mean I'm not scared of the possibility. And I do think people who have to make terrible decisions about their personal lives due to financial concerns are enslaved by their financial situations.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:08 am 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 pm
Posts: 1374
I read Dear Prudence way too much, but I was happy to see that she stuck up for vegan parents in her recent article! Take a looksie: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear ... ingle.html

(I feel like I should give my MIL a big hug. At least I don't have to deal with this mess!)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:41 pm 
Offline
Nailed to the V

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:36 pm
Posts: 578
Location: West LA
I was just coming here to post on the Dear Prudence bit. The mother in law who wrote in makes me appreciate my in-laws. I know they would load my kids up with meat and dairy if given the chance, but they would never dream of reporting me to child services.

_________________
http://veggielawyer.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:57 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3793
Wow. What a forking dingbat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
It made me think of The Crabby Crafter. I can't imagine ever talking to my MIL again if she called CPS on me.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:48 am 
Offline
Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:57 am
Posts: 1856
Location: Scotland
Tofulish wrote:
It made me think of The Crabby Crafter. I can't imagine ever talking to my MIL again if she called CPS on me.

Ha! It totally sounds like my MIL (even though she is a vegetarian). They are both totally unrepentant about their decision to call the authorities and don't understand why anyone would be angry about that. ;p I could see my mom (whom I never see or speak to, so it's a moot issue, thankfully) feeding my kids non-vegan stuff behind my back.

My MIL still won't apologise -- even after 2 years. She acts like we are soooo mean to not let her see the kids -- all she has to do is say she's sorry and promise not to do it again, but she won't. Unbelievable!

Anyway, I loved Dear Prudence's response!

_________________
http://reallycrabbycrafter.blogspot.com
http://www.etsy.com/shop/TheTartanVicar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:26 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
So there is this article about how dangerous home births are and I was wondering if one of the smart cookies here could help me see any flaws or issues with this piece.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... erous.html

The gist is that home births are trendy and midwives are irresponsible, and I feel like the reasoning is pretty shakey - a few really bad anecdotes used to support a flawed thesis. Kind of the Dr. Lisa "dead mommy! dead baby!" rant.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:34 pm 
Offline
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Toronto
I am not the person to bunk or debunk that article, but I will provide some anecdata, because who doesn't love it?!

1) both me and my brother were born at home back in the days before it was legal and midwifery was not legal. My parents had to give both the midwives and my family doctor monetary "gifts" that just happened to coincide with the birth of their children.

2) My dear friend is studying to be a midwife (in her third of four years), is as feminist as they come, works from a trauma-informed, client-centered, etc etc perspective and is quite nervous about homebirths. Pre-midwifery she was very supportive of them, now, having seen just how catastrophically wrong birth can go in an instant she has really changed the way she feels about it. Though she also says that most of the naysayers are cherry-picking stats and are approaching from a pathologizing standpoint that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:21 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I can see wanting to have a home birth because hospitals feel so disempowering, because often people are telling you what to do and you're sometimes being straight-up manipulated into doing stuff that is easiest for the MD/staff. I think it sucks to cavalierly dismiss wanting a home birth as being "trendy" and conveniently forgetting that these women want the best for themselves and their kids as well. Yes bad things happen in home births but they do in hospitals too. The hospital ones just aren't lethal as often because we have more ways to prevent death there, and because hospital treat everything like an emergency.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:23 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3793
Just some issues with these kinds of articles:

a) flat out misrepresentation of the reality of homebirth risks. When home births have been studied, there has been an increased statistical risk of neonatal death even while there is less risk of pretty much every other bad potential outcome, but the actual numbers are very tiny - very few babies die in the hospital, very few babies die during home births (http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378% ... X/abstract). "Triple" sounds very scary, but we're talking about such small numbers that the likelihood of actually having a catastrophic event is almost nil. Some of those catastrophic events at home births would have happened in the hospital anyway and we don't know how many of those were due to having inexperienced midwives, planned unassisted births, births after no prenatal care or improper care, etc. We don't even know if some of those were births where the fetus was already dead and so the death can't be attributed to the location of birth at all.

b) failure to give comparisons - every OB from the first page of the article has dealt with a sick or dead baby after a home birth transfer, how many dead or sick babies have they dealt with in hospital births (and how much of that sickness was iatrogenic)? My guess is a significantly higher number, but it's not as significant in their memories - they don't remember it as being so traumatic or out of the ordinary as the bad home birth transfers. When a baby is born sick in the hospital, they believe they did everything that could have been done, whether they could have done anything or not. A million stories about babies dying at home should be balanced by all the stories of babies who died in the hospital, including babies who died because of doctor negligence. The article is full of so many examples of just flat-out negligence on the part of the midwife: not knowing how to palpate the uterus to know which way that baby is facing - that is just crazy, not advising well about Group B Strep (although what they don't tell you in this article is that routine administration of IV antibiotics to women who are Group B Strep positive has NOT reduced neonatal mortality of babies born to women with Group B Strep - fewer babies are dying of GBS infection, but more are dying from other infections, potentially linked to the antibiotic administration).

c) generally catastrophizing birth - you see one horrible birth event and birth becomes extremely scary, even if that event is extremely rare. This is why OBs think birth is horribly dangerous - their training involved trying to see every possible horrible birth event in order to prepare them for those experiences. No number of wonderful, healthy births can erase those memories. When I was a chaplain, I cared for a woman who had experienced a stillbirth. I spent my entire pregnancy just absolutely convinced I would have a stillbirth. The brain is not all that rational.

d) there is SOME difference, so let's actually figure out what that difference is and help people who want home births make better choices about their providers. Extremely few people in the US have home births. There's also a lot of overlap between people who choose to home birth and people who choose to do other risky things (have unassisted birth, hire under-educated, under-trained caregivers who don't make the choice to transfer care at the right time or who are afraid to transfer care because they're practicing illegally, eschew appropriate medical care because of woo-woo thinking/religious belief/caregivers who give bad information, etc.), simply because it's a fringe practice already. How about we compare like circumstances instead: CNM hospital births vs. CNM home births, MD hospital births vs. MD home births, etc. I would imagine the differences would mostly disappear in that kind of study. The US scores poorly compared to other developed nations in terms of neonatal mortality, despite most women giving birth in hospitals and most women who get prenatal care getting it from MDs. There are so many reasons for this: we don't support women living in poverty well so there's a lot of malnutrition in pregnancy and pregnant women living in unsafe conditions and doing unsafe work, women have spotty access to prenatal care for so many reasons, there's a real inconsistency in level of education and experience among home birth caregivers, etc. it's entirely possible that despite home birth appearing to be more risky than hospital birth that the answer to that problem is MORE home birth along with: more regulation and more stringent requirements of midwives, more uniformity in prenatal care, more collaboration between doctors and midwives, more collaboration between midwives/doctors and social welfare agencies, etc.

e) Childbirth has inherent risks. And this I think is the most important response to any conversation doubting any choices in childbirth: I think in general that women have to be trusted to be able to make informed choices about their births WHEN THEY ARE GIVEN COMPLETE AND ACCURATE INFORMATION. I found during pregnancy that my midwives mostly treated me like a moron. They were unwilling (maybe incapable?) of giving complete and accurate information about tests, risks, interventions, etc. They were unable to refer me to actual research about anything. And I don't think it's because they're midwives. I am sure that an OB would have done a similarly bad job. I was never informed of risks to any test or procedure unless I specifically asked. I was never informed of risks of an epidural before I got one, or Pitocin, or EFM, or an IV, etc. I was never given options unless I researched them myself and made a totally independent decision. I think this is a pretty normal experience for most birthing women, whether they're birthing at home or in the hospital, their providers offer a very limited menu of possibilities and don't help women look at those possibilities critically. If women had access to unbiased and complete information as well as some help thinking through complicated options, they could make the best choices for themselves. Barring that, women have to be as responsible about birthing choices as they'd be about choosing any other kind of medical care and we have to be trusted in our choices.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:28 pm 
Offline
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Toronto
Were I the type of person who wanted to give birth, I would be hoping for a pregnancy healthy enough to have a home birth. I think that the pathologizing of pregnancy that happens in mainstream medicine is awful, and I have heard far too many stories of how one intervention invariably leads to a whole host of interventions, none of them necessary.

I also think that it makes a lot more sense to be somewhere comfortable and familiar, where you can walk around and eat as you wish, have the lighting as you wish, etc. then when you're ready get into a position that's comfortable (rather than butt down, legs up) and let your body and gravity do their thing, watched over by a well-trained midwife.

I also wonder (I'm honestly too tired to read that whole story and then research her claims) what the difference in outcomes is for countries that have mainstreamed midwifery (and thus, I imagine, have a higher percentage of home births) vs the U.S. which really isn't.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:48 pm 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3793
j-dub wrote:
I also wonder (I'm honestly too tired to read that whole story and then research her claims) what the difference in outcomes is for countries that have mainstreamed midwifery (and thus, I imagine, have a higher percentage of home births) vs the U.S. which really isn't.


Their outcomes are significantly better in terms of neonatal mortality. However, it's hard to compare the U.S. to those countries because they have a much more homogeneous population, greater uniformity of prenatal and birthing care, complete collaboration between midwives and doctors, welfare states - meaning nutritional and housing support for women in poverty, etc. The countries that have the lowest neonatal mortality rates are also countries where most birthing women are attended by midwives and huge numbers of women give birth at home. Not really a fair comparison because of other differences, but it doesn't mean we can't learn things from them about how to handle birth and pregnant women in general.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:51 am 
Offline
Inflexitarian
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 751
Location: Virginia, USA
I'd like to give a flipside to the "midwives rock, hospitals suck" mentality I see a lot..

I was extremely dissatisfied with my midwife. She 100% ignored what was planned, what she agreed to. She argued with me, telling me I wasn't anxious and therefore didn't need the IV meds agreed upon to manage anxiety. She ignored the hospital staff. She literally lied to me in labor (a stupid move for anybody, a HORRIBLE move to somebody with trust issues already). She was extremely cold towards me and explained nothing, not why she was doing anything or refused to follow what was planned. She gave little reassurance, having a very "Suck it up and get over it" attitude during a labor in which I had a ptsd episode, pitocin mismanaged, and 2 failed epidurals. (she insisted they worked and I was just whining) Both the baby and I had issues getting enough oxygen because of how strong the contractions were from how hard she ordered the pitocin be pushed.

On the other hand, the hospital staff rocked. They were respectful, asked what I needed and helped me get it. They explained everything as many times as I needed, truly seemed to care. If something couldn't go as planned, they explained why. When there was a mixup between vegan and vegetarian, they went to go figure out why and explain to the kitchen staff what the difference was. The one who didn't understand asked nicely what the difference was. They provided excellent pain management, and tried to offer as much breastfeeding support as I asked for. They kept the baby in the room almost the entire time and explained anytime she needed to leave why. I would say they were some of the kindest people I've ever met.

Hence why I'm not at all going to say "Yay! Midwives are so empowering!". Sorry, not all of them are. Some of them really suck and need to find a different profession.

_________________
Geeks make the world go 'round

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/GeekKnowledge


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:58 am 
Offline
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3565
Location: It's hot. All the time.
j-dub wrote:
Were I the type of person who wanted to give birth, I would be hoping for a pregnancy healthy enough to have a home birth. I think that the pathologizing of pregnancy that happens in mainstream medicine is awful, and I have heard far too many stories of how one intervention invariably leads to a whole host of interventions, none of them necessary.

I also think that it makes a lot more sense to be somewhere comfortable and familiar, where you can walk around and eat as you wish, have the lighting as you wish, etc. then when you're ready get into a position that's comfortable (rather than butt down, legs up) and let your body and gravity do their thing, watched over by a well-trained midwife.

I also wonder (I'm honestly too tired to read that whole story and then research her claims) what the difference in outcomes is for countries that have mainstreamed midwifery (and thus, I imagine, have a higher percentage of home births) vs the U.S. which really isn't.

In the US, you would also have to hope for insurance that would cover it or enough cash to pay for it. Also, you would have to hope for a hospital close enough that if something did go wrong, you could get there in time.

At the hospital, I could have walked around, changed the lights, and done what I wanted (up to a point because of medical issues). Also, I had friends in the room with me up to the point when things got serious and I kicked everyone out. (Okay, I yelled at everyone.)

I also wonder how terrible it would have been to have to travel to the hospital once it was evident that I needed to go. I can't imagine having to travel anywhere at that point.

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:07 pm 
Offline
Has it on Blue Vinyl
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 2147
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162- ... udy-finds/

Sleep training study - no harmful effects seen for a couple different sleep training methods.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Articles about parenting/children, etc. post and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:24 pm 
Offline
Has it on Blue Vinyl
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 2147
I'm trying to think of something to say about this. We've used some sleep training, but kind of modified to fit baby's needs. I think it helped some, but not as well as I would have liked. He gets up 0-3 times per night, which is fine by me, he's hungry and I just nurse him back to sleep. It's just that he has to be pretty sleepy to be happy before falling asleep in the crib when going to bed. By pretty sleepy I mean already asleep and stays asleep when transferring or wakes up briefly when transferring. He used to fall asleep more easily just making happy noises for a little while once he was tired, but not so much recently. He does okay if he is fussing, he will fall asleep within 10 minutes or so. However, if he starts screaming, all bets are off and I've got to rock him and re-nurse him and try again. It's easy to think about "what if I am damaging my baby" by doing X, Y, or Z. I haven't read the original study and I'm always skeptical of medical reporting because it is often so bad (inaccurate), but I guess it is nice to have some sort of validation. Although what I do with Carlos isn't quite the same as what they are talking about. He certainly doesn't seem damaged from it. He is always so much happier if he gets good sleep.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer