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 Post subject: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:43 am 
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so BabyPunk sees a physical therapist once a week to work on her torticollis. it's done through the Early Intervention dept of the state of MA.
when the woman comes over we also just talk about general baby stuff. the thing that comes up pretty much every week is how is she napping/sleeping

BP is a non-napper. she's never been a good napper but ive heard of other babies who dont nap well. she will fall asleep nursing and will nap ON TOP of me fine but if i try to transfer her to the pack n play it doesnt always work. sometimes it does sometimes it doesnt. she will nap in the ergo when we go on our pup walk in the afternoon so it's not like she doesnt nap at all.
we definitely dont have set naptimes.

as for nighttiime sleep it can definitely be a struggle. again she will fall asleep nursing but then when i try and transfer her to her cosleeper she will typically wake up. sometimes i can pat her tummy to sleep but sometimes she starts crying and the process starts over.
she goes through phases of going to sleep semi ok and phases of taking a lot of effort.

to me this is all totally normal. i mean who doesnt have issues getting their baby to sleep at night?

soooo that brings me to today. first off i will say the PT isnt trying to be judgy judgy and tell me what to do but i think she's trying to be helpful but it kind of makes me feel like im doing everything wrong.
she asks me if there is anything that i can do that works 100% of the time to get her to sleep and just knocks her out.
i dont. nursing does but then shes still on top of me.
she asked if she does any self soothing behaviors, she doesnt really.
she asked if she will take a pacifier. we've never tried and honestly there is something in me that i just dont want to. i cant explain it i just really dont want to.

she suggested we transition her at this point into her own room into her own crib.
at 5 months i am WAY not ready to do this. she suggested to do it now at 5-6 months rather than 8-9 months when it will be more difficult because they are going through another developmental change and have more sleep disturbances and are going through a seperation anxiety period. she said it would be easier now.
to be honest i wasnt even thinking of transitioning her at 8-9 months. i have no plan of when i want her in her own room.
i was going to keep her in the cosleeper or our bed for as long as it seemed appropriate.

she mentioned CIO and said she doesnt really like it and at this age wouldnt recommend it for night sleeping but i might try putting her down for a nap awake and letting her get used to being awake and then transitioning to falling asleep and i assume that if that meant letting her CIO then to do so (though she didnt outright say that)

i just feel really crappy and confused now. theres no way im ever going to let her CIO i dont think. i just cant do it. she's 5 months old i cant do it.
i dont feel that at this age if she needs to fall asleep on me snuggled up and then be transferred to her cosleeper that that is a bad thing.
if i have to hold her to soothe her i dont see a problem with it.

she did have a couple good suggestions for us regarding bedtime routine. she said to introduce a blankie as part of bedtime routine so she can associate that with calming down and going to sleep so im definitely gonna do that. she said it should be ok now for her to have a blankie in bed with her since she can move her arms and head and can move things so it shouldnt be a suffocation risk.
we've also been trying really hard to establish an official bedtime routine and time. previously we never really had a time but we usually had a similar routine which was diaper change, sleep sack (formerly swaddler but now with arms out), nursing, then sleep.
i want to incorporate a book into that routine and have it start around 7:30-8. we probably should have started this before but we suck and didnt.
it's been successful in that we can usually get her to sleep sometime between 8 and 8:30 and its been unsuccessful in that she wakes up again around 10ish and is harder to get asleep at that point than before.

i dunno.sorry for the long post i just feel crappy like ive been doing all this parenting stuff wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:13 am 
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Don't have time to type out a long response now, but I do want to address the issue of when to move baby out of your room. If you want baby punk out of your room, I think your physical therapist is right that you should do it around 5-6 months because of the separation anxiety that can develop around 8 months or so. If you like baby punk sleeping in your room though, don't worry about it. Nothing wrong with everyone sleeping in the same room :-). But, I think you are at a very good stage for moving baby out of your room if that's a goal of yours. My oldest moved to her own room around 6 months, and that worked very well for us. (Twins moved out earlier because 2 babies take up so much space!).


Last edited by helbury on Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:13 am 
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LisaPunk wrote:
she asks me if there is anything that i can do that works 100% of the time to get her to sleep and just knocks her out.


Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha. Oh boy. Until someone invents Baby Valium, I don't think anyone anywhere has something like this.

Sorry LP. One of my kids was a crappy sleeper as a baby, the other one was an amazing sleeper pretty much from the start. One of them would maybe take a crappy 1 hr nap after a lot of hassle if I was lucky and the other one regularly naps 2+ hours with pretty much no work involved. One of them had to have night nursing pried away from him like a precious precious gem and the other one just gave it up himself with no fuss. I'm convinced it's a total goddamn crapshoot.

(And for what it's worth, E became a totally normal sleeper eventually. I really think he just had to grow into it.)

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:20 am 
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What you do sounds super similar to what we did, the only reasons he ended up with a set nap schedule was because they got him on one at daycare, but on the weekends at home all bets were off. We didn't start with a real bed time routine until closer to a year, and even now at 20 months, how he falls asleep varies - sometimes he goes down in his crib with us sitting by him, sometimes we can sit on our bed (in the same room) while he goes down in his crib, sometimes he goes down snuggling in our bed and then we transfer him.
I was totally freaked out when he started daycare at 6 months because he didn't have any sort of a sleep routine, but it worked itself out. So I say, don't worry about it! Do whatever works for you!


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:44 pm 
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LP, you do what feels right to you and what works for you and don't let anybody make you feel incompetent or that you're doing anything wrong.

I didn't do pacifiers or crying it out, either. It just doesn't feel right to me. No CIO and no pacifiers and co-sleeping for at least a year is what works for us -- maybe not for everybody, but neither is a lot of stuff we do.
I mean, I don't like using strollers (got one on freecycle, hated it, re-freecycled it) and only use a baby carrier, but I wouldn't go around telling people functioning just fine with strollers (and even those that aren't) that they need to start baby carrying.

Like someone else already said, some babies sleep well and some don't. Not a lot you can do about it, if you ask me. I've raised my kids all pretty much the same and Vax is the only one who *ever* napped, Vax sleeps okay for his age, Beety was much less of a good sleeper, but still slept, and Raygold pretty much hardly slept at all until last year.

I have a wiggly baby in my lap and Beet reading out loud over my shoulder [size=85(]and I have had a really shitty day and my head is all in a tizzy)[/size], so I hope this makes sense and isn't too rambling.

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:55 pm 
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thanks everyone.
she was really nice about it and said to do whatever we felt comfortable with but i think i was so shocked at the idea of moving her out of my room my over sensitive side kicked in.

i just honestly dont feel its right for us and i dont know how to communicate that and the other thing is i dont even know why the sleep thing comes up so damn often. she comes to our house to do physical therapy not to counsel me on baby rearing.

i guess overall it made me realize we have no plan for future sleep situations and what we want and i was just going along happily with my tiny baby not realizing she is growing and developing and i have to like decide "stuff" hahaha

i need to talk to my husband obviously but my personal feelings is to keep her in the cosleeper as long as its safe and then have her in our bed til whenever.
it seems alot of people who have coslept said eventually their kid just wanted their own bed and decided on their own.
do people find that to be true??

my husband keeps telling me to talk to his mom. they were like the ultimate hippie parents. home births, family bed, anti vax, and unschooled all their kids to varying degrees. i think they would have had all 4 of their kids in the same bed with them if there wasnt such a big gap between my husband and his youngest brothr (10 years)
i just feel like if i ask her opinion on one thing it opens pandora's box of parenting advice some of which i dont share the same ideas (anti vax).

also i know im not ready but i dont think BP is ready to move to her own room. ive noticed on the occasion we get her to her cosleeper early in the evening she always wakes up. she sleeps way better when one of us is physically in the room with her. even if she's asleep she can sense when im nearby. super baby jedi sense methinks.
plus if i cant get her to stay asleep in her cosleeper half the time how the hell am i gonna get her to sleep in an entirely different ROOM!!!! ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:57 pm 
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I agree with TheCrabbyCrafter. It seems like you and BP are getting along well. And if you are okay with it, it is nobody's business. Especially if you didn't ask for advice. I'd say do whatever you think is right and ignore the PT. I'd probably just tell her BP sleeps better and change the subject.

I don't read the playground often but I think you are an awesome parent! You always seem so relaxed and like you guys are getting along so well. You shouldn't feel bad about anything:)


Last edited by Mihl on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:01 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
LisaPunk wrote:
she asks me if there is anything that i can do that works 100% of the time to get her to sleep and just knocks her out.


Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha. Oh boy. Until someone invents Baby Valium, I don't think anyone anywhere has something like this.


this is what im saying!!! i was like "ummm does anyone have that?"
i was thinking to myself "Damn! im doing this all wrong!"
i mean ive heard of kids who go to sleep fine and sleep 10 hours straight (my best friend has one) but overall babies not sleeping seems like the oldest story in the book!

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Mihl wrote:
I'd probably just tell her Charlotte sleeps better and change the subject.


to be honest that was totally what i was thinking of doing.
im terrible at lying but i feel like she sees such a tiny snapshot of things and maybe i tend to bring up the bad days.
i think i may just tell her we're workong on our bedtime routine and it seems to be helping and then just drop it :-P

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Yup, it is the oldest story in the book!


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:22 pm 
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yeah seriously is this woman a sleep expert? probably not! I've heard multiple complaints from moms in my area who all frequent the same pediatric practice that these drs were pushing them to start sleep-training at like 3 months old. Luckily most of them realized that was a tad ridiculous, but it's just so unfair for people to offer this (unsolicited!) advice re: stuff they are not experts in. Kinda like nutrition also.


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:45 pm 
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So I don't really have anything to add but it sounds like you're doing a great job of following your instincts. Honestly, if what you're doing works for you right now, then don't mess with it! I am a firm believer in not creating problems now because you think you may have them in the future (e.g. trying to get BP out of your bed now in anticipation of a harder time later). It will probably be difficult whenever you do it! Sleep especially is so, so variable and constantly changing that I think the only people to gauge whether a situation is working are the parents/caregivers.

My answer when people ask stuff like your PT is asking is to say something like, "Well, like any baby she has her days, but what we're doing is working for our family and we don't feel the need to change our routine."


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Yeah, if I could've continued to get Malka to just fall asleep on me for naps, which she used to do, I would still be doing that. I say take the path of least resistance. It seems like you've got something going that works for you. Why fork with it? You can't make plans for the future when it comes to baby and toddler sleep. Something that works today may not work in a month. You have to keep changing it up, that's just the way of babies. Even if we were pro-CIO, we do not have a kid it would've worked for. What we've done instead when we were trying to convince her to go to sleep is just laying down next to her in bed (nurse if she's interested), cuddling, softly singing and shushing, rubbing her back, etc. We still do this to get her to go to sleep. I feel confident that some day she will not be freaked out by going to sleep on her own and don't really feel the need to rush it as long as it takes less time over the course of weeks/months. At this point our only problem is that it takes awhile to get into deep enough sleep that we can leave the room, but I got a new eReader that's backlit so I just read while she's getting into deeper sleep and it's fine.

I do agree with the notion of introducing a comfort object that gets associated with sleep. Wish we had figured that one out, but Malka has never been interested.

I am also anti-pacifier. Because they are disgusting and then it's one more thing you have to keep track of and then they have to be weaned off of. Malka never had one, but many of the toddlers she knows have one, and she has figured out its purpose and now peer-pressure-like she is totally into them and will steal other kids' and suck on them. She even asked me for her pacifier in the car the other day. *What are you talking about crazy child??? We do not own even a single pacifier and we never will!* One cute thing came out of this recent obsession, though. Last night we were went to watch our nephew (Malka's age) for a few hours and he was forlorn when his parents left and we were just cuddling on the couch trying to get him to chill out and Malka found two pacifiers, brought one over for him and stuck it in his mouth, then put one in her own mouth which he thought was HILARIOUS because he knows it is a weird and silly thing for Malka to use a pacifier and that broke his bad mood.

Unless you want her out of your room, I would not move her now. She is still in the prime SIDS risk age and having her in your room is a major risk-lowering move.


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Just here to say as long as baby is happy and you are happy I think you are doing it just right. I basically have done everything the opposite of you including crib from the early weeks, swaddling, pacifier, putting down to sleep while awake - but baby was happy and we were happy; my friend was a co-sleeper, no-pacifier, baby napped only in carrier but baby and mamma happy. It is your baby - you can do it any way you want!

I would agree with helbury though- if you aren't actually wanting to co-sleep for the long haul than moving baby out around this time frame is supposed to be easier - my sister was a co-sleeper by default (too tired to get up ever hour to breastfeed so baby slept in bed) and she decided to try to move the baby to her own bed around a year - didn't happen. Baby is 22 months now and sleep only in my sister's bed despite periodic attempts to dislodge her.


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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Re: kids moving out of co-sleeping: we moved the Emperor out because I was hugely pregnant and ready for more room. I waited til we were away from home for a couple of days and then made a big deal about his "big kid bed" etc when we got home. The first night he came and asked if he could get into bed with me and I said no and he was fine after that.

M still sleeps with us but I've felt like he could be on his own for a long time. (There's just nowhere to put him right now.) He sleeps in bed by himself fine and often is clearly annoyed to have me nearby and trying to cuddle him, heh. He is clearly personally ready in a way E wasn't.

So again, I think it's a crapshoot!

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:40 pm 
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BP is so not down with the putting down awake and falling asleep on her own.
last night i had her sound asleep on top of me and attempted to gently move her to her cosleeper and as happens 85% of the time she woke up.
she didnt cry or fuss though and i thought maybe she *might* go to sleep on her own.
yeah right. she proceeded to basically throw a party in her cosleeper.
i watched her from 10:30 til 11. she was making her fart noises, kicking her legs in the air, grabbing the toes of her jammies, going crazy with her blankets, attempting to roll over (never quite made it) and basically living the high life.

it was quite amusing but i had to put an end to it once i realized she wasnt going to tire herself out

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 Post subject: Re: ugh need reassurance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:11 pm 
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I'm sure that if you've read through the sleep thread and other playground threads you'll see I struggled with this stuff too. I think it's great that you are so relaxed. I was stressed to a tizzy about babynut gaining weight and I had people telling me that any problems with napping or sleep meant that she was hungry. This worry had me going crazy.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I feel like some kids just don't sleep well. My friend has two kids; the first one never napped or went to bed easy, the second slept in all situations without effort like a champion. Like C&S said, it's a crapshoot. Oh of course, there could be an actual problem, but I think many times people who never had a bad sleeper just don't understand what it's like so the advise is confusing.

I think every baby is different, but we did a co-sleeper in our room/co slept until she was about 9 months. At that time, she just seemed ready to move to her room and we were too. That being said, she would wake up around 4 am and at that time we brought her back to our bed to co sleep. This hybrid model works well for us even now at 21 months. She sleeps on her own while we prowl around and I still get some cuddle time.

Anyway, that's a long response for do what feels right for you guys.


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