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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:58 pm 
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helbury wrote:
Later, I wanted an epidural, so they paged the anesthesiologist, and a nurse basically forced me to put a gown on before he arrived, saying she didn't want to shock the poor young guy. Sheesh. I'm sure he'd seen it all before....


How obnoxious. Really - laboring mamas should be wearing *whatever they want* and should be in charge of who is seeing them in whatever state of undress they're in.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:01 pm 
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I totally lacked modesty during labor too. I agreed to have a midwifery student be around during my labor, and it was actually awesome. She was there pretty much the whole time, which was probably about 8 hours, and she was great! There was a medical student I agreed to let watch too, and when the midwife called the ob in, two came in. And then the nurse called in another nurse at the end to put in my "just in case IV". I went from the tub to the bed to push, and remained nekkid, and totally did not care that people just kept parading in.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Where I work, attendings are faculty members that work for the university in the hospital. They have their own "practices" that are not private practices, but part of the hospital/university system. I am an attending (dentist, not physician) with the hospital. My position is "Associate Professor." I see patients in a hospital/university based clinic and I also see patients in the operating room. Sometimes I am seeing patients myself and other times I supervise residents. Residents don't need as much supervision as students. We don't have dental students, just residents, but the hospital has medical students and medical residents. Generally residents work independently on less complicated cases (I am present and available, but not in the room with them) and I am in the room with them for more complicated cases. Most of the time when I work with residents, it is one-on-one so I am always available immediately to them because my clinic is very small, but in our main clinic (I am offsite) there are up to 10 residents at a time with 1-2 attendings. The residency director almost never sees patients on his own because he is supervising so many residents at once. Dental residency is a little different than medical residency in that dental residency is optional and medical residency is not, but there are a lot of similarities between the two. Also, residents take call (depending on the service either in the hospital or with pagers at home outside of the hospital). We also take call as attendings, but mostly to answer the residents' questions or to go in and help them if they need help. We also answer calls for private practice physicians/dentists that have questions about how to manage certain cases.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:13 pm 
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i had a student midwife at my delivery. she is my most favourite person ever. she is truly magical and i love her. she was a 4th year though, so practically working on her own, the main midwife was mostly just overseeing and providing back-up. the other midwife i saw had a student too, but i really didn't want her around... had she been the one on call when i went into labour, i'd have probably asked her to leave. she was only maybe 1st or 2nd year though, and i just found her very nervous and awkward. not that it's her fault, but not a vibe i wanted around me while pushing a baby out, you know?

i saw a resident right at the beginning, before i'd been accepted by the midwife practice. she was terrible. that's pretty much my only experience with residents, aside from a few brief encounters when T was in the NICU, which weren't particularly positive either.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:38 pm 
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I remember reading c&s saying she was completely naked in the throws of labor and thinking I could never do that. Well, guess what? Actually being in labor changed all that. Fast. I could have cared less who saw me nude, I was too focused on getting the baby out!

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:29 am 
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kdub wrote:
I remember reading c&s saying she was completely naked in the throws of labor and thinking I could never do that. Well, guess what? Actually being in labor changed all that. Fast. I could have cared less who saw me nude, I was too focused on getting the baby out!


Ha ha ha. I was just scrolling down so I could post about how I was like ripping my clothes off in labor with E.

It's funny because I'm the sort of person who would normally rather saw off her own arm than take her clothing off in front of people she doesn't know super well. But, in labor? I could not possibly give a shiitake about that.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:42 am 
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Yes - me too - I am normally not a taking off my clothes in front of others type - in labor I could care less. When I was getting in the jacuzzi tub my doula was trying to get a gown on me and I was totally uninterested but I guess we put it on because when I got out of the tub and dropped it off she was then trying to get a dry one on me again and I was totally charging past her to the bed before another contraction hit. Luckily for everyone the tub was in my room, because I am sure I would have done the same if it had been one of those tubs down the hall from my room too...


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:42 am 
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I actually brought different laboring outfits to the birthing center! I had thought I would want to be covered as well, so I had swimsuit for the tub, gowns, sarong, all sorts of stuff. I also had my heart set on a specific room. When the time actually came, I hobbled in (8 cm), yelled "I don't care!" when they asked me what room I wanted, and then I stripped off my clothes and got in the tub.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:04 am 
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With E there was a tub in my room, but with M I used the one down the hall. For the life of me, I can't remember if I was wearing anything for the walk back to my room!

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:16 am 
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When I was taken from the labor room to the delivery room I was trying to get the blankets off of me, I didn't care who saw me naked!

I really like having two days in the hospital after giving birth, in fact I would have liked longer! I was so sore and could hardly walk, thank god Nate was there the whole time. I don't think your husband counts as a visitor. We had a few visitors, mostly to bring us food. Me friend also had to install the carseat because we were going to do it that weekend, and well, oops! I had amazing care, the hospital had midwives on staff and I saw a couple lactation consultants. The head of pediatrics came to chat with us as did the head if OB. I had a nice room with a gorgeous view of mount tamalpais. I also remember that grey was so easy that first week, he slept a lot and hardly cried. Then a week later he started crying and didn't stop for four months...


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:58 pm 
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i was totally naked the first time i gave birth, basically from the moment i got out of the tub the first time. this time? not so much. i had a shirt on the whole time. for most of my labour i had pajama pants, long sleeved shirt, fluffy bathrobe and slippers. i actually felt sort of weird about being naked. i took my shirt off after i gave birth, but not until after the rest of me was covered with my duvet. it's really strange, since i was in my own house and totally relaxed. i wonder whether it's because everything happened so fast... so for the first part i wasn't in lalaland, and for the actual 2 hours of real labour and pushing, i was just trying to wrap my head around what was happening.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:04 pm 
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littlebear wrote:
I had a nice room with a gorgeous view of mount tamalpais.


I just realized you live in the bay area! I lived there as a 4th, 5th, 6th grader and we often went walking up in the hills or "mount" tamalpais - brings back good memories!!!


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:17 pm 
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How do you stop your kid from hurting other kids? At 15 months L doesn't seem to get "not nice!" or me using GD "Oh look, you made your friend cry! Can you say sorry?"

Ack! I know she's not going to turn out to be Charles Manson, but really, this is getting somewhat embarassing. I hovered over her and in the two seconds I was turned to throw something away, she got on top of a smaller baby and was trying to shove her fist into his mouth.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:25 pm 
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I haven't figured anything out for that problem except a) isolation, b) mostly hanging out with bigger kids so I can worry more about protecting her than protecting them (and bigger kids can be told to be gentle), and c) hanging with other people who are up for the reality of toddlers/babies hurting each other. Our primary playmates now are siblings 12 mos, 2.5, and 5 and Malka ignores the baby and goes after the older toddler, much easier to deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:08 pm 
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This isn't a solution, but I just hover and talk through a lot of his interactions. It can be really exhausting! "Nola has the doll...you really want it! You can play with this truck right now. You'll get a turn with the doll when she's finished...Now you're upset." It can sound kind of weird to listen to but I think this "sportscasting" actually really helps him. When he gets physical, I just reiterate, "We need to be gentle without friends" or "I can't let you hit" or something. If Sven can't be redirected, usually I have to say "You're having a hard time not hitting. I'm going to bring you [wherever] and we'll take a break together for a minute." What sucks is that usually leads to anger and we have to work through his frustration together, but I prefer it to hitting other kids! Sven doesn't talk yet but I do have the sense that he understands a lot of it, but I figure it will just take a LOT of repetition to really get the concept of "gentle" across. I mean, even I don't always handle my frustrations effectively, so I try to be understanding, but it's hard and can be really embarrassing depending on the company!


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:25 pm 
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On thinking about this for another five minutes, I think I tend to err on the side of "puppy play" than on the side of "teach them how to be gentle/reflect feelings and process them." I'm not that worried about my kid eventually learning to be gentle; she'll learn it as she's able. I think there's something to be gained from figuring out what physical behaviors are not going to be tolerated by your playmates as part of learning to be part of the group. It's also really confusing because there are a lot of amusing physical behaviors we tolerate as parents that we don't want them to do to kids their own size and I think they have to act some of that out in order to understand that and figure out their place in the social organization of the world (like it's okay to lightly pinch Daddy because he'll laugh and that's how I can get him to fake tackle me which I super love, but it's not okay to pinch a baby because they're going to cry and it's not okay to pinch a kid a little bit bigger than me because they're going to push me over and then I'll cry). Toddlers seem to have a lot of innate curiosity/interest/distress in/over other children crying, so sometimes it seems worth it to let that happen naturally rather than intervening by stating the rules of the playground again (I say this as someone who regularly lets my kid get into it with an older toddler who could push her over if he gets frustrated and sometimes does, you obviously can't assume other people will be okay with this for their own kids).


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:56 pm 
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I like puppy play for other toddlers that are able to defend themselves or push back, and I agree that its important. But when another mom is audibly gasping because your precious snowflake is trying to claw her precious snowflake's eyes out, I think you have to draw a line.

I try and do what kdub describes and what I know as Gentle Discipline, but that generally gets her looking at me like I have 3 heads. Today we left a playgroup early because she just would not stop hitting. Two of her older playmates (both boys who are around 2) are actually afraid of her and will avoid her.
And obviously I know it passes, but until then, OMG STOP BITING PEOPLE IN THE FACE FERCHRISSAKE!

She's also in a really defiant stage, so "Don't pull the cat's tail" is followed by a concerted effort to pull the cat's tail until he runs away.

I am doing "Calm Time" 2x a day and am working on her ability to delay gratification and follow instructions like "wait" and those have her be really good with me. But with the stimulation of playdates and other kids, I feel like all bets are off.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Sounds like isolation time.

Someone just told me they thought Malka was awesome because she seemed so reasonable and toddlers are so uniformly unreasonable (I thought this was hilarious - this person spent two hours with Malka during which she was being given constant focused attention from multiple adults and given everything she wanted, of course she was seeming reasonable). I just don't think you can reason toddlers out of their physical limit-testing!


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:08 pm 
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What sounds like isolation?

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:40 pm 
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My first technique for making Malka not hurt anyone, don't let her near them, sounds like where Leela is at now.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:04 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
How do you stop your kid from hurting other kids? At 15 months L doesn't seem to get "not nice!" or me using GD "Oh look, you made your friend cry! Can you say sorry?"

Ack! I know she's not going to turn out to be Charles Manson, but really, this is getting somewhat embarassing. I hovered over her and in the two seconds I was turned to throw something away, she got on top of a smaller baby and was trying to shove her fist into his mouth.

Beet and Raygold beat the shiitake out of each other sometimes! I just let them go at it because they're siblings and it's mostly just rough and tumble, but when, say, Raygold started biting (hard and Beetroot would be crying with horrible bitemarks), I did the same thing as Ariann and gave him isolation time. My kids haven't been around other kids much (not since the fighting started -- I stopped going to the local playgroup because the other parents pretty much totally ignored me and Mr. Crabby and I don't have time for snooty people), but if my kids ever did hurt other kids, I would have to get my kid away and give them a stern lecture and not let them play with other kids any more at that time (I'm not sure if other parents tolerate puppy play or not and would be worried they'd be bisques to me if I didn't do something).

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:55 am 
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My kids were in a head start from a young age, and what they did, we did: a quick "we don't hurt our friends" and redirection. If it happens again, isolation "you can play over here by yourself". They did not do time outs, although we did at home.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:14 am 
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what would you say the difference between timeout and isolation is??

is timeout more like "sit there and think about what you did?" and isolation is more "let's go over here and play with this by ourselves til we calm down?"

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:50 am 
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I definitely don't isolate my kid and I don't do time outs.

The parent-friends I hang out with all believe in Gentle Discipline and that kids are best off allowed to have the experience with us helping them understand things like "You just hurt X! Look X is sad!" so that the child sees the effect of their actions and then we give attention to the hurt kid and ask the kid who was the one doing the hurting if they would like to say sorry and find a way to make amends. That works really well for kids that are able to walk and move away or defend themselves, but I feel really bad when L hurts a baby who can't walk away. So yesterday L took a book from a friend and the friend cried, then I asked L to give it back but she wasn't going to, so we picked out another book to offer instead. And that works well, but when L was repeatedly going back to a 9 month old and grabbing his face, then I said "that hurts the baby, look the baby is crying! Please don't do that again." And she did it 3x each time with a correction. At the last time I said, okay if that happens again, we are going home okay? And it did, so I said "Okay, we say good bye to our friends and we're leaving now." The idea isn't to punish, its to help develop empathy (look X is hurt!), the idea of consequences and that you can make amends with someone. Leela doesn't really understand "Okay you can play over there by yourself." at this point.

We don't say "We don't hurt our friends" because its totally possible to accidentally hurt someone and we don't want to blame.

I know there aren't any easy fixes, and you just have to model for them and talk to them like they understand until they do, but man, its mortifying sometimes!

The 'Calm Time' that I talked about above, is a bit like a time-in. We take an little 30 min break to read a book together in the bedroom and relax, so she isn't running around full-tilt and then collapsing into exhaustion. Its an attempt to stave off over-tiredness and overwhelm for the most part.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:01 am 
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i think the time out has the potential to be a judgmental thing (sit here til you're sorry!) whereas isolation is just nonchalantly moving them out of the line of fire. just like you said, really.

i don't think we really were implementing either at Leela's age. I honestly don't think at that age they have the social (or even vocabulary) skills on board yet to consider empathy as a motivator.
Once we were closer to 3 and both of my daughters had been to the ER because they had gleefully hurt each other without giving a crepe about anyone's feelings, then we were doing timeouts (as well as therapy).

I think there's a big difference between a 13month old getting overexcited and older kids (especially kids that are exposed to many other kids regularly, and who know in that environment not to hurt kids) fighting on purpose. For me, it was time to intervene. But every situation, kid and mother requires a unique solution that will work for them.

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