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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:31 am 
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Let me clarify. I don't mean an isolation punishment in the moment, I mean actual isolation, like if our friends are afraid of us, we just don't go and play with them at all. We just do not put ourselves in that situation. It sucks for the parent, but I really think there's a period when toddlers can't be reasoned with or corrected in any way (gd is for you at this point, not them, timeouts don't make any sense right now).


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:46 am 
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Ariann wrote:
(gd is for you at this point, not them).


I disagree with this. I think its useful for them to hear the language and see the behavior modeled, even if it isn't immediately effective. How else do they learn?

The people we know who do GD seem to have kids that "get it" at around 2, but they go through the same stuff as L is for a while. I don't think that not interacting with others is the way to handle it, personally, but people can differ obvs.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:21 pm 
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I'm not really convinced they can learn this specific behavior at this age (and I am wholly unconvinced that any of the relatively humane discipline techniques from GD to time-outs to grounding, etc. have different end results for behavior down the line). Or rather, I'm not convinced they can learn it without immediate, unpleasant feedback (the benefit of puppy play), which I wouldn't want to give (the only parental methods I am aware of that actually work to modify infant/early toddler behavior consistently are generally abusive). Especially since their negative behavior at this point isn't even coming half the time from anger or frustration, just curiosity. "I'm sticking my entire fist into this other kid's mouth because that's how I learn about anatomy and spatial reasoning right now, and clearly that's an okay way to do it because this other kid hasn't bit me yet and made me cry and now my mama is picking me up and saying something in a gentle voice" or "I like to hit stuff and see if I can get a reaction. If they didn't cry, that clearly means I didn't hit hard enough. Reactions are awesome. They prove to me that other people exist independently from me..."

My choice here is either to allow my kid to injure others and then be constantly reacting to it in a way she probably isn't going to respond to for another year, or to not allow her to hurt other kids in the first place. I choose the latter. She isn't isolated from other kids in general, just ones that she's likely to hurt who won't be cool with it (or won't fight back and show her that's not cool). We don't let her near babies at this point unless we're going to be hypervigilant about keeping her clear of them. Her potential learning does not take precedence over their safety. I'm not going to wait for her to poke them in the eye before getting involved.

When she's developed a little bit of self-regulation and more empathy, it will make a lot more sense to me to say "I know you're angry, but I can't allow you to continue hitting your friend." At this point, I'm just going to remove her from the situation and say and sign "No hitting." But I'd rather just not be in that situation to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:17 pm 
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LB, by isolation, in my case, I would take the kid away from the situation if it's in public (stopping the incident and explaining, etc. -- although this has never really been a problem because we stopped going to the local playgroup before my kids ever started hitting) or time-outs in the corner at home (1 minute for each year of their age). Time-outs didn't work until my kids were old enough to understand why they had to go sit in the corner (and then they see everyone else having fun), so I didn't bother until they did understand, and they only get time-outs for deliberately doing things they shouldn't (like when they actually know they're not supposed to do something and do it anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:10 pm 
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At this age, it's really really unlikely that Leela is going to learn empathy. Now, granted, I agree that modeling empathetic behavior/pointing out the consequences of her actions is helpful, but until she's older, separation is a perfectly kind and viable option. I've known lots of biters, for instance, and while much of the time (in a professional setting) we tried to stick close to the kid and intercept before a bite happened, there were times where the kiddo was given something fun to do by themselves because we needed some guarantee of safety for the other kids when we couldn't be right there.

Gentle Discipline is great, but I really disagree with the "never say no" mentality that many of the proponents preach. Used wisely, "no" is a valuable tool to teach children.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:15 pm 
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Ha! Its such a great reminder that there are so many different ways to parent and that at the end of the day, all our kids, coming from a home with smart, supportive, caring parents, are most likely going to be fine.

I like the idea that "No" is harder for children to understand than a redirect - "Let us do X" instead of "don't do Y" - because the latter is actually giving them more direction. I use No with Leela, but mostly from a space of reaction. "Don't pull the cat's tail" as opposed to "hey let's pet his head!" And I notice that when I get calm and do a clear redirect it has a higher success ratio.

As long as she is safe and loved, I figure I'm doing my job.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:38 am 
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Does anyone else have a kiddo who scream and cries in the middle of the night and has the only relief be urinating? It doesn't happen during the day and its a big amount. She has no signs of fever, redness etc that might indicate a UTI. I know its harder to pee on your back but this seems ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
My first technique for making Malka not hurt anyone, don't let her near them, sounds like where Leela is at now.



I agree with this. I would talk to to Leela about how it's not nice and whatnot and if she keeps doing it then take her away to play alone. If she tries to go back to play with the kid she is hurting...etc...tell her again how it's not nice and that she can't play with that friend because she hurt him/her and then try reintroducing her to that friend maybe 10 minutes later and repeat. Also Leela is only 15 months old. I think she is too young to understand all of this. Its great to be teaching her it but I wouldn't expect her to grasp this concept for quite some time now. In the meantime you have the responsibility to make her not hurt other kids and if she is repeatedly going for the same friend she has to be removed in my opinion. Its better then the other parent, of the kid being hit, removing themselves from you.

My daughter had a friend who was always hurting her. The parents were really into GD and this kid NEVER GOT IT. NEVER. He bite, hit, pulled hair etc...we don't see them really anymore and its really sad to lose a friendship over something like this. I think GD just doesn't work for all kids no matter what angle you take correcting the offending situations. I'm not saying that GD isn't going to work with Leela. I'm sure it will but keep an open mind that it might not be for her. You don't want your kid to be the Kindergarten bully! :)

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Does anyone else have a kiddo who scream and cries in the middle of the night and has the only relief be urinating? It doesn't happen during the day and its a big amount. She has no signs of fever, redness etc that might indicate a UTI. I know its harder to pee on your back but this seems ridiculous.


This is interesting! Miles will wake up in the middle of night, usually around the same time, and scream and cry for a bit and then he calms down and goes back to sleep. We don't check on him when this happens because he deals with it rather quickly. I wonder if he's peeing though like Leela. How long does this last for Leela?

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:17 pm 
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JENNA wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Does anyone else have a kiddo who scream and cries in the middle of the night and has the only relief be urinating? It doesn't happen during the day and its a big amount. She has no signs of fever, redness etc that might indicate a UTI. I know its harder to pee on your back but this seems ridiculous.


This is interesting! Miles will wake up in the middle of night, usually around the same time, and scream and cry for a bit and then he calms down and goes back to sleep. We don't check on him when this happens because he deals with it rather quickly. I wonder if he's peeing though like Leela. How long does this last for Leela?


I did a bit of research and apparently its pretty normal. The EC'ers I asked said that for them its a sign to start getting the baby on the potty. For L its a few minutes, but she won't take a boob, and nothing I do will make her calm down until she's peed and then she drifts back to sleep. It was just really trying yesterday, because I got worried and woke her up, which was a disaster, because she was then up for 2 hours at 4 am and I am still feeling the effects.

And on the toddlers acting out, Leela isn't repeatedly hurting any one kid, as was done to your daughter, with me not intervening. We're in a group of other parents, many of whom have told me that if anything I tend to intervene too early, because I really don't want her ever hurting anyone. I am really sorry that you guys lost a friend over discipline, and I know I'd be really upset if anyone was hurting Leela, so I tend to be pretty apologetic for her and make sure that I am managing her.

I hover over L, I intervene and redirect where needed and the one time when a situation wasn't resolving, I removed her as a direct consequence for her not stopping.

We were at a large playgroup today and L interacted really well with all the other kids - I still monitor really closely and I make sure she isn't hurting the little ones - the toddlers who can walk and get around are fine with her (and they are doing the same things that she is!), but I worry about the ones who aren't mobile. She is just a normal toddler, not a bully at all!

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:58 pm 
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I was never implying that she was a bully. She is far from being a bully and is totally a normal toddler.

And about her repeatedly hurting a specific kid every time you saw them I meant more per play date. If she keeps bugging one specific kid at the one play date. If it's the same kid every time then that's it's own problem! :) The boy bothering Reno also bothered other kids. It wasn't just her. The parents intervened but to no affect at all and we had to cut the kids off from seeing each other.

I personally don't like the idea of only doing GD and that's just because I haven't had good experiences with GD'd children or their parents. Maybe those parents were doing it wrong. I'll never know. My feeling is that there is a time for GD and there is a time not to GD. I have no problem putting the fear of god into my children if its going to keep them or someone else safe/unharmed.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:52 pm 
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does anyone have any recommendations on how to write out our birth plan?
when i started asking my Dr about it she was totally on board with discussing it but it seemed like i was supposed to have it on paper rather than floating around in my brain.
she mentioned the internet.
i googled birth plans and am overwhelmed on what to use.
the back of my hypnobirthing book has an example but it's so long.

did anyone use a website they liked or did you just write out your "demands" on paper.
we have a small handful of "demands" but they are fairly important ones for us.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:57 pm 
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I love mine - I broke it into bulletin points under the different rubrics that made sense to me.

Labor: x
x
x

Delivery: x
x
x

Post-delivery (Mom):

Post-delivery (Baby):

In the event of a c-section:

It was one page and my doula, midwife and instructor all asked to keep a copy as a model.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:59 pm 
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so basically you just made one on your own rather than using a template?

all the templates to me seem to have like WAAAAAAYYYYY more stuff than i need. i dont want to give them a 12 page document and have them roll their eyes at me ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:03 pm 
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I looked at examples of birth plans and kind of cribbed from ones that were similar to our ideas. Our Bradley instructor gave us some samples from past couples and there was one in there from someone who delivered at the same hospital we were going to be at, so that was helpful. One thing I saw on some that I thought was smart (and copied) was to do sort of a "best case" plan first, but to also include some stuff about your wishes in the event of a c-section. Obviously, it might all go out the window in an emergent situation but I felt better putting it in writing (things like leaving one hand free, putting the baby on my chest if possible, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:05 pm 
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My layout was like Tofulish's. I think it is a good idea to keep it pretty succinct. I wouldn't bother with a template that includes things you don't feel strongly about. Make a list of things you want (and don't want!) and then break it out into sections/bullet points.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Mine was like Tofulish's. Everyone was given a copy (and each nurse was given a copy when there was a shift change) and there was one in my file already when we showed up from my midwife. I think most nurses and doctors truly want to follow birth plans because there's no reason to make a person's experience different than how they want it to be if it doesn't pose a danger or any particular difficulties to the staff. However, if anything happens medically out of the ordinary (for you or the baby), know that you will probably be dealing with people who both haven't read your birth plan and have no interest (or possibly time) to read your birth plan - if there are super important things to you that can still happen even in medically difficult circumstances, you should have someone who will be able to advocate for those things (a good nurse should be able to do this for you, theoretically) if the need arises. Do not rely on your OB to advocate for anything having to do with your newborn, because they will probably not be involved in that at all (stuff like Hep B shot, eye goop, etc.). There should also be an intake form when you get to the hospital about newborn procedures so you can decline/consent to things at that time - that document will be more likely to be read by the newborn nurses than your birth plan.

P.S. in my "just in case of C-section" section I mostly only put stuff my midwife had already told me would be cool in that hospital. I wasn't going to put down "leave both arms free" and then be upset when no OB in the hospital was willing to do that (my midwife said, they always do that, don't know if that's true or not). The only thing that wasn't like that was I included a request that a support person (my husband or doula) be with me continuously and that I not be without a support person at any point, including when they were prepping me for surgery. I think that's a pretty unusual request and I would have fought really hard to make it happen if it had gone that way, as would my husband.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:10 am 
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did you guys put you are a vegan in your birth plan?

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04 pm 
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I wrote out a detailed birth plan at home, went over it with my doula and OB, and then didn't take it to the hospital with me and just told my nurse, I want to go as close to natural and interventionless as possible. There wasn't any one thing that was going to make or break my experience though.

The great thing about having a doula was that she could clarify any points that came up with regard to that.

It worked well for me! So I did the exact same thing the second time around.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Re: veganism, this was on the hospital intake paperwork for me.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Yeah, I mentioned it at the intake appointment thing. I don't think I even ended up eating anything from the hospital kitchen, so moot point. Personally, I wouldn't put it on a birth plan. I feel like that's more for the nurses/doctors, and they're not really the ones who will be handling your food. To me, a birth plan should be as concise as possible and kind of stick to labor/delivery/aftercare stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Pinko wrote:
To me, a birth plan should be as concise as possible and kind of stick to labor/delivery/aftercare stuff.


Yes. Re aftercare, it also makes sense to add anything for the nursery - so if you want to make sure baby doesn't get a paci or formula or doesn't get a bath. We did that and it was useful. Even when they took her for the hearing test etc, there was a no formula sign on her babycage.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Tofutish, did they not ask you separately about breast feeding? I think that was also on intake forms. Nobody from the nursery read our birth plan for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:52 am 
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my dr said it was a good idea to put a no pacifier sign on the bassinet. just so well meaning people didnt give her one as an ooops.

My birth plan is pretty short which im happy about I just want to make sure im not forgetting anything????

I split it into admission, labor, and post delivery.

*no IV (not even a hep lock)
*eat and drink
*husband to be with me at all times
*walk around freely
*no induction
*no pain meds
*minimal staff visits and no students
*minimal vag exams and only upon consent
*immediate skin to skin contact
*decline eye goo and hep b shot
*delay vit K shot
*delay cord clamping
*breastfeeding only. No formula or pacifiers
I put at the beginning that all of this is “barring any medical emergency” or something like that.

I don’t know what to put in case of a c-section. Like at that point I feel like the c-section trumps most everything else on my birth plan so i should just let them do their thing.

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 Post subject: Re: dumb questions related to pregnancy and babies and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:21 am 
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LisaPunk wrote:
my dr said it was a good idea to put a no pacifier sign on the bassinet. just so well meaning people didnt give her one as an ooops.

I swear, not using pacifiers is tied with breastfeeding-on-demand (i.e. all the friggin' time, which didn't bother me, but apparently bothered everybody else) for the most controversial parenting decision I ever made! Co-sleeping, babywearing, breastfeeding well into toddlerhood...no problem. But no pacifier? Child abuse. (No, really, that's what my mom said. Everyone else just declared that I was "mean." Except my MIL. I think that was the only thing we ever agreed on.)

I'm just telling you this as a head's up. I had no idea how weird people were about it. (On the other hand, I seem to attract weirdos and extreme people, so maybe you won't have to deal with the haters.)

(Pacifiers to me are like jeans without back pockets. Just not my style. I don't go around criticising people who don't have butt-pockets on their jeans and I don't sneer at kids with pacifiers. I actually liked it back in the 80s when the tough-looking burnouts hanging out in the mall bathrooms would have them (pacifiers, not back pocketless jeans).)

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