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 Post subject: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:19 pm 
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My husband and I are dangerously dangerously close to getting a bird and I hoped to find a bird person I could bounce some questions off of. I've done a bit of research on the one we want to get....I want to make sure we are a responsible birdie family. We're looking at a 1 year old Conure and I don't know which type but it's the yellow one not the green cheek one and I love how friendly and lovable he is. He bites a little but I guess ( you'd know this for sure ) you can train them to not....
Do you have any good pointers or webites to help me out in researching this?

Thanks in advance...


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Ok nevermind. We talked ourselves out of it.....for now. So i guess I still would welcome any pointers or things to consider from you or any other bird savvy person because I'm sure we'll be in this position again. And maybe the next time we're close to nabbing that little birdie, we may not be so overly practical.


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:15 am 
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Ok this is sad, I've replied to my own post 2 times....but I have no shame so I don't care. Anyways.....I've changed my mind again AND my husband got a wad-o-cash for his birthday ( and has been looking at cool cage/toy set ups for said bird ) so I think we're talking ourselves out of being overly practical. I've decided I would still love it if you, Lavawitch or any other bird lover, would tell me the pros and cons of having a feathered friend as a companion animal.
thank you. :)

And now I will no longer post a reply to my own thread. Maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:53 am 
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it's your thread, post if you want to!

I don't have a conure, i have a cockatiel, which is probably completely different, but i was shocked to find that this bird needs 24/7 companionship. On you, preferably. The bird is caged at night but every waking moment needs to be with a person. He is a lovely bird, very caring, and doesn't bite too much (well, he bites me, but doesn't bite others). Even with me he is very lovey dovey. But there are other physical down sides that i never thought of- anything with sequins, glitter, etc is going to be eaten. Every single book he can reach is chewed like nuts. I love him, and i am happy i was able to get him out of a difficult situation (i adopted him as a baby) but i sometimes wish i had thought this out a bit more. He is going to be with us for a long, long time (longer than the dogs, if i'm not mistaken) and it's not to be taken lightly.
also, avian vet. i have had a really hard time finding anyone (there's a teaching vet school here that has a clinic on one day of the week and if you're lucky, there's someone who does birds... it's not exactly emergency friendly.) and didn't really think about it until we needed it- i am lucky to know someone who breeds them and knows a lot, but god forbid something serious happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:03 am 
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I've never had a bird but second the advice on finding a vet first. I had the same issue when I got my first two guinea pigs, didn't even think about it and then when I needed a vet it was difficult finding one with any real expertise. Good luck, and my advice is to learn as much about the care of your bird before actually getting one.

And post pics please, if you get a bird

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:13 am 
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I read an article which said that 85% of birds that are bought are surrendered, because people don't realize how much work they are. It described parrots as being like a two year old with a can-opener on his/her face, in that they can figure out a ton of stuff and can be quite destructive and definitely have their own personalities.

Please don't buy a bird - rescue one. There is a woman near me who rescues them (in part because shelters don't really know what to do with them). As a sign of how bad the rescue options are, there was a scandal when NY ACC was selling surrendered birds to a local petstore for resale and some of the birds were then sent over to Spain to be used as breeder birds.

I am going to pm this thread to Lavawitch, because I am sure she knows more specific stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:30 am 
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Bergedy has a conure and a cockatoo. I will see what she has to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Birds are a lot of work, though it does depend on the breed.

Conures are lower maintenance compared to larger birds like African greys or cockatoos.

However, they are very vocal birds. Nacho, my sun conure squawks and beeps a lot. Be very prepared for that! If I'm on a call for work, I need to give her food or hide in another room because my co-workers will hear her on the phone. (So loud in fact, that they can't hear me.)

They love to toss their bird seed around. I place a newspaper moat around their cages to try to catch most of it. You'll be sweeping or vacuuming the mess on a regular basis. You also need to chop up fresh fruits and veggies as seeds aren't the best diet and they'll love when you share pasta and other people foods. There's a list of foods which are dangerous for birds. If you adopt be sure to google so you know not to feed it mushrooms or avocados. You'll also need to be careful about things like hair spray. Don't cook with Teflon pans if you have a parrot. You need to keep smokers away from your bird as well.

Conures can live up to 30 years, so you are making a significant commitment if you take in the conure.

Nacho was hand raised and when I got her was very sweet. She loved to be scratched and snuggled with and did not bite. We're going 19 years now and her personality has changed a bit. She is still very sweet, but is not so fond of attention. Part of that is because she has bonded a some with my Tommy the cockatoo. If this bird is a biter, you may be able to slowly teach it not to. However, they can be very stubborn.

A larger bird like Tommy is a significant undertaking. They need a lot of interaction...like 4 hours per day. Cockatoos are also vocal, but their decibel level is a lot higher.

Birds are also rewarding friends. They have lots of cute quirks. Nacho for example, loves to dance when you sing to her. She especially digs it when we change Macho Man to Nacho Man. If you are adopting a conure because you want a talking parrot, you'll be disappointed. They are vocal, but not good at mimicking voices. It may learn a few words, but they are not known for talking. They do make some cute noises though!

ETA: Make sure you also get a cage that is big enough. They often recommend smaller cages than actually required. Conures love to climb and play, so they need plenty of space.

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Last edited by bergedy on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:23 pm 
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PS - I agree with Tofulish that adopting a rescued parrot is the best way to go. Many, many birds are in need of homes because owners couldn't or weren't prepared to care for them.

Tommy was a rescue parrot and I'm glad I got her 15 years ago!

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:35 pm 
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bergedy wrote:
Nacho for example, loves to dance when you sing to her. She especially digs it when we change Macho Man to Nacho Man.


This is so freaking cute.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:40 pm 
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I'll post more later, but if you are new to birds, I am going to actually advise against a rescue. The large majority of rescued birds are bounced around because they are hard to deal with and are often very needy. It is not like rescuing a dog or cat. Our macaw was a rescue and it was a very long road working with him. Of course he was worth it, but it was very stressful on our family, expensive, and time consuming. We also knew quite a bit about parrots. The reputable rescues generally won't adopt to new bird people for these reasons unless you have worked with them (the rescue) on a long term basis or have other recommendations.

When I got Molly, I was turned away from all of the rescues within several states even though I had a personal recommendation from a very prominent avian vet. I understand their position: I met so many birds who were on their 3rd or 4 th well meaning home. It is horrible. Especially cockatoos. Get involved with birds, eventually work as a foster, support the rescues with food and time, but don't jump into starting with a bird that will likely need much more than you can give. I know there are cases that work out, but I have seen so many more that don't.

What would you do with a conure that yelled loudly day and night? Or a bird who lunged and attacked anyone who came into your house? A bird so depressed he plucks all his feathers to the point of infection and bleeding skin wounds? These are common problems!

Different birds have very different personalities. Molly is a green cheek and they are very cuddly, affectionate birds. But Moll wants to be surgically glued to me all day. She does socialize with our other birds, my parents, and plays with lots of toys so she is ok alone too, but she needs tons of attention. If she doesnt get it, she will act out. She loves both my parents but bites them without provocation so they can't really handle her. Many parrots are one person pets. I have to sadly keep Molly wing clipped which I loathe because else she dive bombs and viciously attacks people. This is actually fairly normal conure behavior. We are working with her and a lot of it is dominance games and territoriality, and terrible twos stage.

I got Molly from a local woman who let her pet pair hatch a clutch each year. The money I paid for Moll went to support the large parrots that she fostered for rescues. She would not let any of her birds go without a home check and other conditions. Any birds that she couldn't find homes for, she kept herself ( not really a problem with baby green cheeks ).

I don't mean to sound so gloom and doom. I just saw so much bad while working for the avian vet and selling supplies at bird shows and meeting rescue people. The bottom line is that birds become a very lively, vocal part of the family. They are so intelligent and social that they require as much stimulation as a child.

I would find a way to work with birds first and then possibly start with a hand fed baby from an ethical source and then foster or rescue once you can fully handle it. When I am settled, I plan to do this. I know this will probably make people want to flame me around here. But you can't comapre this to dogs or cats. For one thing, problems are much harder to work with, and parrot behavior coaches are rare and very, very expensive. Not to mention avian vet bills.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Also: because our macaw has serious deep abandonment issues, my parents can't ever go on vacation. Ever. He will pluck, stop eating, hurt himself, and go into a total panic if left alone and go almost psychotic if left somewhere like a boarder or vet. My parents had to drive 10 hrs rt for my graduation and only stay long enough for the ceremony and drive straight back.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Ok now I'll try to say some good. But first, one of the biggest things about parrots that you need to know is that they are EMPATHETIC, not sympathetic. So, if you are upset or unhappy, instead of comforting you like a dog or a cat, the bird will take on your symptoms and "join the fun."

Also: almost ALL birds have a very healthy spiteful streak. All 3 of our birds do, even our angelically sweet and wonderful, perfect little cockatiel. An example from yesterday: Miss Molly will ONLY take her baths in ice cold water. When she wants a bath, she will call for NEW bath water by yelling "take a bath baby." No, nobody taught her this, she just associated my saying that with taking her in the shower and appropriated it for her own use. Yesterday she started circling the rim of the bath bowl in the macaw cage (she is the only bath fiend so we put in a bath bowl so she wouldn't take baths in the drinking water) and demanding her water. I ignored her because a) I was busy and b) the bath water was still fresh and still had half a freaking ice cube in it--good enough!

Twenty minutes later the macaw starts yelling his head off in his "I need something" tone. Ten minutes later my mom comes and says "that's odd. Molly pooped in the water bowl (drinking)." So Moll found a way to get her fresh ice water.

Parrots have very long memories and are pretty big on "getting even." It is a lot of work to find an equilribium where everybody fits in happily.

Oh, right. The good! Well, parrots are so incredibly intelligent, affectionate, and loyal. They are such good companions and, demanding as they are, they give back so much more than they could ever ask for. Molly saved me. Really. I was at a point where I was so depressed, lonely, and miserable. I so desperately wanted affectionate company. Ever since I have had her in my life, I haven't been lonely, and she always cheers me up. I love her so much and she is such a happy little bird that she spreads so much joy (ok, except when she bites people; she almost never bites me). Anyone with a parrot in their life is truly lucky.

I know I sound so negative for someone who loves birds and I really don't mean to. I especially don't mean to seem to have the attitude that nobody except ME should have a bird. Before I got Moll, I spent about 4 months researching bird species to really consider which would fit into my life. In the end, I didn't get the bird that I wanted (boy, was I dumb to not want Moll! I didn't even think green cheeks were all that pretty then), but I got the bird that suited my life and that I knew I could make happy given my limits (space, time, finances, etc).

Conures can be a major handful. Sun Conures, for example, are absolutely gorgeous, but they are so loud, I've known people to get evicted from apartments because of them. Green Cheeks are one of a different branch of conure species and are not very vocal. Conures are also uniformly *very* nippy. Some may grow out of it, but many never will. I worked with Molly enough, and she has a sweet temperament, so she doesn't bite me any longer, but she will bite (and draw blood) almost anybody else. My parents aren't willing to take the time to work with her consistently enough for her to behave better with them, so she is still trying to bully them. On the plus side, if you give conures a large cage with lots and lots of safe, fun toys, they will happily occupy themselves while you are at work as long as they are given a lot of attention while you are home. A lot of cockatiels will just sit sadly on a perch all day getting depressed. Routines are very, very important to parrots. All 3 of our birds announce when it is their bedtime and get distressed if we are late doing the evening rituals. If Molly gets her morning veggie dish late, she will sometimes dump it over and bite to show her displeasure.

Bottom line: just please, please, consider everything and try to get to know some birds first. A big problem is that parrots don't always respond very well to life changes like babies, moving, new job schedules, and parrot behavior problems can escalate out of control so quickly. Especially if you elect to rescue a bird (believe me, I don't want to tell people not to do that without good reason! I want birds rescued and wish I had been in a position to rescue one myself), work out a plan to work with the bird in the company of experts first, see if they will support you with house visits, volunteer at the rescue if it is close enough, find out FULL DISCLOSURE what behavioral problems the bird has. If they say the bird doesn't have any, I can almost guarantee that they are lying unless the bird is a very young baby or one of the handful of very easy going species. They are such sensitive little creatures, that they get psychological scars so easily and it really takes the right person to work through all of that. Parrots are often one person pets and sometimes they just don't like you.

Also: there are some birds like Quakers that are frequently abandoned because they are illegal in many states, PA for example. If you have one and end up moving to such a state, you can't get vet care. Quakers are a handful and can be very nippy, but if you are interested, research them a bit and see if you can find a rescue that has them (many of these birds may have come from happy homes).

Sorry if my perspective seems so negative. I just cry inside when I think of some of the birds I knew who were passed around because even experienced people could not handle them. And I don't think all parrot breeders are necessarily unethical although birds should NEVER be sold or adopted through pet stores. Many of the large macaws are so severely endangered that intervention is necessary. Hyacinth macaws are now becoming more plentiful in the wild again thanks to better knowledge about how to help them. Also, this helps, hopefully, limit/stop smuggling. All of the breeders that I interacted with were very limited in scope, selective about homes, and were very active in rescue and fostering (there are plenty of money grubbing bad breeders too). I know it is a touchy issue and I would be hard pressed to write a position statement on the issue myself because how I feel is all over the map.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:54 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
I I know this will probably make people want to flame me around here. But you can't comapre this to dogs or cats. For one thing, problems are much harder to work with, and parrot behavior coaches are rare and very, very expensive. Not to mention avian vet bills.


No lavawitch, you have a very valid point. However, I'd hope that a good rescue would not give a damaged parrot to a first timer. They also have happy birds who's person moved a way. People often surrender birds to rescue when they are expecting or adopting a child, etc...

They certainly have plenty of special birds that need extra attention though and that is not something a new bird owner can prepare for.

Tommy was a rescue because her owner passed away. She didn't have any issues, but she is a cockatoo and needs an incredible amount of attention. I can't imagine a cockatoo (or macaw like you family has) with emotional baggage.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:06 pm 
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bergedy wrote:
lavawitch wrote:
I I know this will probably make people want to flame me around here. But you can't comapre this to dogs or cats. For one thing, problems are much harder to work with, and parrot behavior coaches are rare and very, very expensive. Not to mention avian vet bills.


No lavawitch, you have a very valid point. However, I'd hope that a good rescue would not give a damaged parrot to a first timer. They also have happy birds who's person moved a way. People often surrender birds to rescue when they are expecting or adopting a child, etc...



No, good ones will not. Good ones won't even adopt to someone like me with good references but a student. One would only adopt to homeowners, the others had income requirements that I couldn't meet. Good rescues will also have full disclosure of any and all issues and almost all require previous bird experience. A rescue that would adopt to a new bird people is likely to also mask up any potential problems--this is what worries me most. I have seen it happen so many times. Caring for birds is expensive so less equipped rescues sometimes sadly do anything they can to move the birds out the door.

I'm not trying to steer people away with my negativity, but rather hope they go in fully and well informed. I am also sure that most vegans looking into rescues are probably much more likely to put in all the work and effort needed to make it work out.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:01 am 
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Cool, thanks for the responses! I don't think anyone here is being too negative at all. I think with a bird with a long life span like a conure like we're thinking of, it's crucial to think of what it would really mean to have a bird in the house. I do NOT want to be one of those people who get a bird, enjoy the novelty for a couple months and then neglect the bird after that or end up giving it back because it's more than I was prepared for.
I'm trying to picture my daily life with a conure and you've all given me some great information to be able to do that. If I decide that it's not the right fit for our family, it won't be because anyone here was too negative. It'll be because someone gave me some good realistic things to consider....are they things I could handle? I honestly don't know. If I had a bird that kept biting for instance and it took forever to train it not to, if ever, I would have a hard time taking it out of its cage when other people came over. I have 2 children, they would be nervous if the bird kept biting them and would probably become fearful of it and not want to interact with it. That being said, we would NOT be getting the bird for the children. It would be mine and my husband's.
Speaking of my husband, I read some of these responses to my husband and the fact that a conure can be loud and quite a handful only makes him want one more.
I'll keep you posted, I have some good information now and some really good things to consider. Thank you thank you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:59 am 
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Something I forgot to mention, we have a dog. Our current dog won't likely be to interested in a birdie but a bird would outlive this dog ( he's 10 1/2 ) and we would get another. I'm confident in our ability to train a dog to leave the bird alone while in its cage, what I'm wondering is, would a bird ( specifically a conure, most likely a sun conure ) be ok with the presence of a dog? Would it stress a bird out too much?


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:36 pm 
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we had a dog when we got our tiel, but that dog is super submissive and gentle to an extreme, so there was no problem whatsoever.

Since we got tiel, we adopted a puppy. He has killed birds outside, so i never leave them together unsupervised, but puppy seems to treat tiel like another member of the family. Tiel for his part likes to antagonize the puppy, so i fear that one day when i'm not looking puppy will pay him back, but if you can train your dog to "leave it" you should be OK. not sure about the stress levels of conures compared to tiels, but for us it's been OK.

i wanted to add- i have a lot of clients who come and go in my house, and the bird has free range in the house (he likes specific areas, but he is free to come and go as he pleases during the day; most of the house is birdproofed pretty well). It has been really interesting to see bird's behavior with different people; some people are afraid of the tiel and those are the people he is most antagonistic towards. He loves men, and will happily climb on their jeans and take a nap on their legs, and women who say "no, let him sit with me" he will sleep on their laps, but i have two clients who are terrified of him, and he's attracted to them like ants to honey. I have to cage him when they come. I only say this because if you're worried that your kids might be afraid, you might be adding another variable to the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:39 pm 
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greenie wrote:
Speaking of my husband, I read some of these responses to my husband and the fact that a conure can be loud and quite a handful only makes him want one more.
I'll keep you posted, I have some good information now and some really good things to consider. Thank you thank you. :)


Heeehee! Yes, they are PERFECT family members in the right situation. A lot of birds are uncomfortable around children because birds need their personal space and can be slow to warm up to people, but many birds also love kids. The biting/nipping can be an issue, but that can be worked on from the start by teaching the child to avoid getting bitten and to respect that birds need approached cautiously. The flip side to biting birds is setting yourself up to get bitten! Even with Molly, I can tell before she bites me and derail her evil plots (she flattens her head feathers for one thing).

Clicker training with parrots is a lot of fun and is often very successful in reducing some of the bad behaviors conures are prone to if you put the time in.

RE: dogs. It really does depend on the dog. We had an English Springer Spaniel who was the most gentle soul you could imagine and let our parakeet crawl all over him and pick at the hair between his toes. The bird could even go near his bone while he was eating it and he would just get up and walk away. He would growl at us if we did that! I wonder about introducing a dog around Molly as I would one day like to get a dog but am unsure how that work work without knowing the dog in advance (our Springer used to make friends with all our yard rabbits and squirrels--it was hilarious). Lots of bird people have dogs though, so apparently it can be done.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:09 pm 
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I had no idea birds were so much work. I have never been interested in owning one but this thread is very informative, now I can add to a bird convo shall it come up.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:16 pm 
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This thread rocks! If only everyone who was thinking of adopt a bird could get this honest information. I was also dangerously close to adopting a bird a few years ago, luckily I realized that at this point in my life I can't handle a bird (and a bird can't handle me!) Mostly I got my info from lavawitch on the old boards, so thanks. Your honesty is refreshing and SO helpful- don't think you're being a downer with your "bad" info, everyone should know the unpleasant aspects of bird parenting because those are the exact reasons so many birds are re-homed. If your info convinces even one person to wait and reassess their situation (like me), you've saved a bird and a person from a possibly unpleasant process. If I could print out all your experiences and paste them on the young conure cages at the local pet stores... if only.

In the future I hope I'm in a position to adopt a bird because they sound like great companions, even considering the bad parts. My plans are to get a stable job with lots of time at home, get some kids out of the way, and open up a place in my home and heart for a bird family member! A bird sounds like perfect companions for older adults with grown up kids, but right now (as a young adult) I just have waaaay too much going on, too many plans are changing, and a bird would go nuts.


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:31 pm 
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I have a question about bird messes! This just crossed my mind and I'm curious. I seem to remember that birds just go to the bathroom at random, how messy are their droppings when they have free time in the house/on your shoulder/non-cage areas?

Oh and greenie, it may be worth it to see if you're allergic to feathers/birds. My brother is allergic to feathers and birds (he gets special pillows), and I was allergic to my pet rats which made for a really itchy situation when playing with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:19 pm 
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kibbles wrote:
I have a question about bird messes! This just crossed my mind and I'm curious. I seem to remember that birds just go to the bathroom at random, how messy are their droppings when they have free time in the house/on your shoulder/non-cage areas?

Oh and greenie, it may be worth it to see if you're allergic to feathers/birds. My brother is allergic to feathers and birds (he gets special pillows), and I was allergic to my pet rats which made for a really itchy situation when playing with them.


Messy. They mostly have favorite places to sit though. Molly is potty trained, for the most part. Birds are messy. They waste and throw food and get feathers everywhere. Get used to twice daily vacuuming.

Some birds are more alleergenic than others, ESP cockatiels and cockatoos. My mom is severely allergic to out tiel, especially when she is molting but has no problems with Molly or the macaw. It is the powder on tiel and too skin. That really gets people.

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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:50 am 
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oh Kibbles, that is a great suggestion about checking on allergies first. I'm pretty sure I'm fine, my pillow is feather/down filled and in the last 12+ years I've been using it, it's never caused a problem. ( Now, before anyone grosses out....I wash it all the time. I just toss it in the regular washing machine and right in the dryer on hot. I don't know what I will do when that pillow wears out I love it so much. If one of my children steals it and falls asleep on it, I remove it out from under their darling little sleeping head and reclaim it )
My husband and daughter might have an issue though, they both have pretty good hay fever.


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 Post subject: Re: Lavawitch, I have a bird question for you....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:50 pm 
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yes, the tiel makes so much dandruff that it's almost incomprehensible how much mess he makes. he's always growing new feathers, and always nibbling off the feather sheaths (or whatever they're called) and the detritus just floats in clouds around him when he preens.
as for the poops, it's a daily sweeping and maybe mopping situation. he has his favorite places, but he also has no shame.

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