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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:39 pm 
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i think home breeders should be required by law to follow certain procedures and be checked up on.
i also think if you're contributing to the over population problem, then you should have to take some responsibility for it. so they should have to take in rescues of that breed and adopt them out too.

but those things won't ever happen and instead it seems every story i hear about home breeders include unhealthy, neurotic, dogs or terrible people who keep 60+ dogs in crates, pulling a few out washing them off and showing them as the "current litter". granted i get most of my stories from my time volunteering at the humane society last summer but let me tell you it was eye opening.

we'd get in 76 dogs in a day, we'd adopt out 3. the numbers for cats were worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:44 pm 
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About 3 years ago my parents (dad and stepmom) bred their Lab. My stepmom treats their dog like a princess, all of the conditions the dog was impregnated in were fine, and their lab was pretty submissive so it's not like they had to do anything drastic to get her to submit to a stud. She had 11 puppies and they were all healthy and treated really well, not to mention super adorable (chocolate lab puppies are just like that).
Still, I didn't know what to say to them. They've since spayed their dog and the one puppy they kept as their own, but the whole process of treating their dog like a commodity really creeped me out. I wasn't even vegan at the time, but still.
Anyway, the point is I don't think breeders are evil people. Some are very careful about how they treat their animals, but in the end breeding more dogs is just not a net positive for all of the homeless dogs out there. And like others said above, if someone really likes a specific breed there are plenty of breed specific rescues out there. There are even purebred dogs in some general shelters. My mom and stepdad adopted a very needy australian border collie when they were still together and since then my mom has adopted a pain in the asparagus but sweet dachsund, both from the local SPCA.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:44 pm 
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[quote= why not stop purposefully breeding dogs with deformities? although they are super adorable deformities, breeding dogs with with too short legs and too big eyes and too much skin does nothing to improve those dogs' quality of life. [/quote]

THIS! I love my miniature dachshund, but it breaks my heart to think of the health problems she's going to have because of her size. her legs are far too short to support her looooooooooooong frame. we are religious in our efforts to keep her weight down but it's so hard to keep her from jumping on the couch, running up and down the stairs. i know if we're lucky enough and she lives long enough, she'll need a wheelchair. i have friends whose mini needed knee surgery at less then a year old. ):


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:05 pm 
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My neighbour is talking of studding his golden retriever a couple times before neutering him. It's not even for the money, he just thinks it's not cool if his dog never gets to have sex. I have no idea how to respond to something like that. We have tried to talk about the humping habits and other issues that dogs can develop if they are neutered late, I hope it will make him think.

People here have NO IDEA how to take care of big dogs. Labs and golden retrievers are super popular and are 1. untrained and unsocialized, so dangerous, 2. over fed and under exercised - you see these big labs that just have to lie down after walking for one block because they are exhausted. It's heartbreaking. And soon the fade will pass and people will figure what a big responsibility a big dog in a Seoul apartment is...


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:43 pm 
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My friend got a dog from a breeder a few months ago. She obviously knows how I feel about it but defended her decision by saying that she 'rescued' him from the awful conditions at the breeder. I didn't know how to respond to that as I obviously don't want any living creature to live in a cage but I also don't want to support breeders. Ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:46 pm 
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I think sometimes people act on impulse in those situations and it's hard to fault them for it, but ideally it's best to never pay for an animal as it rewards bad behavior from the people. If you convince them it's a profitable business breeding dogs by buying them from them, you're only helping them do it again, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Yeah, I can understand, but a lot of times breeders want you to feel sorry for the puppies, like sometimes they'll even encourage someone to get two puppies (very difficult to handle for most people, can result in the owner needing to get rid of one) by saying things like, "this is the last one left, she'll be so lonely, they'll miss each other so much." I'd be supportive of your friend, I mean, it's not the dog's fault and it probably is pretty horrific for all puppies in cages who are leaving their mothers and siblings, so I could definitely see feeling sorry for them. But maybe talk to her about how there are just as many puppies in shelters that need to be rescued who are much less likely to find a home.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:31 am 
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I was enthusiastically nodding along as a friend of my mom's was telling me about the puppy she just rescued. Then she mentioned she "rescued" the puppy from a pet store, "...where he was so sad and lonely." Oy.

People's intentions can be so misguided. Luckily, sometimes all it takes is a little guidance and information, and you can make a real change. My mom, a previous supporter of "responsible" dog breeding, has changed her stance on rescue dogs (and "pittie things.") All it took was meeting her grand-doggles. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:54 am 
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aelle wrote:
My neighbour is talking of studding his golden retriever a couple times before neutering him. It's not even for the money, he just thinks it's not cool if his dog never gets to have sex.

It always annoys, and kind of scares me, how concern people are that their dog is never going to have 'sex'. I usually comfort the men who say this by telling them that their dog will still get a boner, usually at the most inappropriate time.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:41 am 
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My local animal control office always has huge litters of the cutest abandoned pit bull puppies in the world. I almost came home with one. They also have a Pit Bull Ambassador program.

My local Humane society has a volunteer who ventures north into Alabama to rescue entire litters of puppies at kill shelters. That's right entire litters of puppies at kill shelters. I adopted one.

If you are going to visit breeders and visit pet shops who sell animals...I think that you need a tale to tell so that you feel better about yourself for doing it. Sort of like how people justify eating meat ( "I don't eat that much." "I only really eat chicken" "We cook a lot of vegetarian recipes") to me when they find out I don't eat it.

Worrying about your dog having sex is ...projecting at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:38 am 
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I am also strongly opposed to breeding. I've grown up with purebred dogs, and had two of them develop terrible genetic diseases before they even reached five. One of these was the puppy I got for my thirteenth birthday, Mocha. When I moved into my first apartment at 17 my mum came out from Calgary to help me for few days. During those few days Mochas immune system backfired, killing her blood cells. My mum instructed the vet to do everything possible, but after only a few days and several thousand dollars later, she died.

Mocha was an amazing, sweet, lovable dog. I credit her for helping me get out of my first depression. She didn't deserve the pain she was put through. She was a show dog, but we went against the breeding contract and spayed/didn't show her. No dog deserves to develop these diseases, but thats what happens when you limit the gene pool so much.

After Mocha my Mum vowed to never again buy a dog from a breeder. This wasn't an easy thing to do. Even though there are still many dogs that need to be adopted in Canada, there are fewer than the states and so breed specific rescues are harder. However, when my Mum found Rover (lab collie mix) she knew it was worth the wait.

People can do some pretty bad things but not be bad people. It does not make you less of a vegan or less of a good person to be friends with them. It also doesn't do much good to label everyone who breeds dogs as bad people. They just are either not aware or choose to ignore the unintended consequences of breeding.

Here's a picture of Mocha-Moo.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:45 am 
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shanniesaysyo wrote:
i think home breeders should be required by law to follow certain procedures and be checked up on. i also think if you're contributing to the over population problem, then you should have to take some responsibility for it. so they should have to take in rescues of that breed and adopt them out too.

but those things won't ever happen


When we were working on stopping a pitbull ban here, we got to see how powerful the breed associations are. The rottie and GSD people sent great people to speak, got letters written and were really supportive of us, until we suggested (1) doing spay and neuter education and encouraging owners to spay/neuter and offering those procedures free/at low cost, and (2)assessing a small additional licensing fee for people who don't spay/neuter or who breed dogs to help the shelters afford to keep the dogs for longer (right now sadly they are pretty much euthanized right away because the shelter is so small and there are so many animals coming in).

Under NJ law, the differential can only be $3, but even there, the people who had been so nice and supportive suddenly started sending us nasty emails in ALLCAPS telling us that we could not say that spay/neuter was a possible solution and threatening to withdraw their support and the trainers we had been working with did the same. So we ended up mentioning it, but downplaying it, just so that we wouldn't get distracted by a fight as to whether neutering/spaying dogs reduces the risk of dogs getting aggressive, biting etc. Although there is a ton of evidence that shows that there is a strong correlation between the two.

I had no idea about the statistics - that you took in 76 dogs a day and adopted out 3. There is no way anyone should be breeding until those homeless dogs have homes.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:03 pm 
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^^^ yeah the stats were eye opening. i volunteered at a large humane society in salem oregon which would take in overflow from rescues around the state, but as i'm sure we all know there is NEVER enough room. a dear friend of mine is an animal behavior specialist and developed a program called camp paw paw where we take in day campers from 5th grade and up and they're paired with a shelter dog (usually of the bully breed variety) then the kids would learn how to take care of the dogs, give baths, learn a few tricks to show the dogs and by the end of the week we'd have a show case where potential new pet owners would come see the dogs, see that they're great around kids, that they can sit and shake and all those things our furry friends do to impress us humans (plus because the animals got daily attention from the kids for long periods of time they were less stressed and better behaved in the kennels). there is nearly 100% adoption rate with the program and is being mimicked around the country now. it was an amazing and humbling experience. it was also TOTALLY ROUGH passing up all the beautiful hounds that came in and needed homes (hounds are my soft spot, i love them all). somedays i left in tears hearing the stories where the animals had been rescued from, somedays i left with my heart so full i thought it would burst.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:28 pm 
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I really wish that you needed a license and had to pay fees to keep a non-neutered dog. Obviously that would be hard to regulate as a lot of people don't take their dogs to the vet already, but it would keep some of the people who just want to breed their dog 'a few times' because 'puppies are cute' but are still responsible pet owners, from breeding. And then serious breeders would have to pay money, and charge more for the dogs, and hopefully that would increase adoptions because it would be even cheaper than normal, the 'need' for breeder dogs would go down, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:28 pm 
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A casual friend of mine recently bought a puppy from a local pet store that has made the news in the past for sourcing from puppy mills/breeders. Her defense is that she was rescuing it from the pet store. She also refused to believe that the money she paid for that dog went on to support more dogs being bought from puppy mills or breeders. Goodness knows how much money she spent on the poor thing. What's infuriating is that this shady pet store is not more than a couple of miles from the animal shelter.

The whole subject makes me sad. Thankfully, though, all of the other dogs in my life were rescued or adopted. Most of my friends are smart about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:38 pm 
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shanniesaysyo wrote:
a dear friend of mine is an animal behavior specialist and developed a program called camp paw paw where we take in day campers from 5th grade and up and they're paired with a shelter dog (usually of the bully breed variety) then the kids would learn how to take care of the dogs, give baths, learn a few tricks to show the dogs and by the end of the week we'd have a show case where potential new pet owners would come see the dogs, see that they're great around kids, that they can sit and shake and all those things our furry friends do to impress us humans (plus because the animals got daily attention from the kids for long periods of time they were less stressed and better behaved in the kennels). there is nearly 100% adoption rate with the program and is being mimicked around the country now.


Wow! What a great idea (I'm getting all sniffly thinking about it)!

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
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Even the nicest, kindest breeder you know is in it to make money. So the worth of their animals is directly linked to how much they can be sold for.


One of the professors at school breeds her dogs. I don't think she is in it for the money. She is an ecological geneticist so, she's in it for the fun of genetics, is my guess. The way she talked that's what it sounded like.

But I'm sure she is outside the usual breeder's mind frame.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:15 pm 
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I ended a friendship after a friend got her second breeder cat from halfway across the country. It was one issue among many and I recognize that it's not my place to tell her how to live her life, but she just didn't understand why it would bother me that she spent $700 on a cat that was flown in a cargo hold on an airplane and treated like a piece of luggage. All the while I'm volunteering at a shelter and we were so full we couldn't take in anymore cats. (Luckily, we're limited admission, so euthanization only happens for health reasons.) What I came down to is that I really think she liked the idea of an expensive designer cat because she tended to be materialistic and kinda looked down on my kitties because they're all rescues. And nobody looks down on my kitties.

As a second story, a couple of months ago, my boss suggested that this lady talk to me because I have the animal cases and know the state laws. The lady wanted to complain about the new pet store in town because she thought they were cropping the puppies' ears too early. She waited a few more weeks to do it to her puppies. I told the number to call if she had concerns and that she shouldn't crop her puppies' ears at all. Honestly, I don't think she gave a crepe about the pet store puppies other than that they were competition.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Fee wrote:
Breeding dogs creates more dogs in a world that is already overpopulated with them. Every dog bought from a breeder is one less rescued from a shelter, and ultimately from their death. Not only that, you can never ensure that animals that you breed aren't going to be the very same animals that end up in shelters, pounds, or dying on the street.

This 100%. There are more than enough unwanted animals in this world that need to be loved and have permanent homes. I don't agree with breeding animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:38 pm 
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The number of breed-specific rescues in your state will surprise you. Just Google the breed, rescue, and your state. If there is an Old English Sheepdog rescue group in Florida, anything is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:30 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
I ended a friendship after a friend got her second breeder cat from halfway across the country. It was one issue among many and I recognize that it's not my place to tell her how to live her life, but she just didn't understand why it would bother me that she spent $700 on a cat that was flown in a cargo hold on an airplane and treated like a piece of luggage. All the while I'm volunteering at a shelter and we were so full we couldn't take in anymore cats. (Luckily, we're limited admission, so euthanization only happens for health reasons.) What I came down to is that I really think she liked the idea of an expensive designer cat because she tended to be materialistic and kinda looked down on my kitties because they're all rescues. And nobody looks down on my kitties.

That's sad, I ended a friendship with my best friend because her mother took in a dog that was being abused by somebody her aunt knew, but instead of spaying the dog, my friend convinced her mother to breed it because "puppies are so cute!" This same friend used to volunteer at the SPCA with me every week, we used to do all the animal right fliers and petition on street corners together, and we used to swap vegetarian/vegan cookbooks. I couldn't believe it when she told me, it felt like she just stabbed me in the back after we had worked so hard trying to convince people to do the opposite of what she was now doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Breeding...?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:39 pm 
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fatcat wrote:
What I came down to is that I really think she liked the idea of an expensive designer cat because she tended to be materialistic and kinda looked down on my kitties because they're all rescues. And nobody looks down on my kitties.


That forking bisque! Nobody puts baby in the corner (er, I mean makes fun of your kitties!). I get weird/pissed/annoyed as well when anyone says anything negative about my cats.

I cringe every time I hear one of my "friends," acquaintances, or pseudo-friends buy from a breeder (it is few and far between, but still). I get all judge-y in my head, even if I wouldn't say it directly.

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