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 Post subject: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:56 pm 
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Queen Bitch of Self-Righteous Veganville
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Please place all of your concerns with the ways that mods mod, here.

Also to note, most of the posts below were pulled from the 'women who have decided to not have children' thread, to stop it from being derailed.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:02 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
I posted about it in the Playground, and while most people were pretty understanding of the frustration of having your reproductive choices dictated by economic factors, I definitely had some responses that were pretty flippant and of the "you'll figure it out" variety. Sure, I can thrift lots of things and whatever, but you can't buy secondhand healthcare, child care, or medical attention. If everything is normal, and there are no unexpected expenses, then sure, the first five years of a child's life can probably be done pretty cheaply, but what if the baby is sick? Or has special needs? How will I just "figure it out" then? And even if I do, is it fair to subject a child to the kind of stress and strife that kind of financial uncertainty and hardship would bring?

Ugh.


I responded in that thread, and I hope you didn't think I was flippant. I completely agree JoPa! I think its irresponsible not to know that childrearing is incredibly expensive. We managed to spend nothing on material things for Leela (except for $500 for diapers) - all her toys, clothes, etc were gifted or we did without, but insurance was $1800 a month for our family (its better now under Obamacare) and the most unexpected cost was time. Basically every hour you want to spend doing things away from your child (unless you have free childcare) costs you at a minimum $15! That means a babysitter, daycare, or a nanny. So if you want to have a 2 hour dinner out, you have to add $30 to the bill. If you want to go on a 4 hour bike ride, it will cost you $60. And I know Kelly posted that once they go to school, everything costs so much money, that you might as well just send your paycheck directly to the school.

I really like the Playground, and I think its great that people without children can and do post there, and can get respectful answers to their questions. I am sorry that you felt like anyone there was dismissive of your concerns. Its rude when people dismiss your reasonable concerns, and a million times worse when people give you unasked for advice that completely disregards the fact that you don't want children.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:56 pm 
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I really feel like parents should leave this thread for those who have chosen not to have kids. I don't think Jordan meant any ill will towards the playground at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:41 pm 
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And personally, I don't mind parents posting here, some have had some really good posts in the past. I think though that I'd hate to have this thread devolve into something where parents are gushing about having kids. I think it is good to talk about societal norms and the issues you may face in your family and in your community. There are often issues we have faced that are common among women (and men) that have kids and that don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Kelly wrote:
I really feel like parents should leave this thread for those who have chosen not to have kids. I don't think Jordan meant any ill will towards the playground at all!


No, I didn't. Since my comment above has evidently rubbed people the wrong way, I will elucidate: I posted in the playground some months ago that I was unhappy with the fact that my finances have such a say in whether I will be able to reproduce. I received a lot of understanding comments, and some well-intentioned replies to the effect that having a baby isn't as expensive as I think and that I will be able to manage. Being a woman who is coming on the upper end of the conventional child-bearing years and has been talking about it with my partner, I found these comments unhelpful despite the obvious good intentions behind them. It is a frustrating thing to feel you are being told that one of the main concerns you have about bringing a new life into the world is, essentially, not a big deal. It is particularly frustrating to be told this when you are, as I am, nearing the upper end of normal child-bearing years* and may not be making the decision for now, but forever. I read both the playground and this thread, and so far, I am able to identify much more with the sentiments in this thread, as I do not have kids. Yet. Accordingly, I posted my experience here, as it was relevant to the point made by jean, above.

Maybe we need a thread for people who are thinking about kids, or undecided, but for now, I don't have kids by choice. Accordingly, I think my post in this thread was valid and relevant to the conversation. If any of the people in this thread who have chosen permanently not to have children feel my post was out of line, I welcome their input. However, I think it's a little off to have parents policing the validity of posts here.

*Yes, I know lots of people can and do have kids way older than me.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Post police need to chill out. Everyone is welcome to post in this thread. My personal hope (and I've said this before) is that people post in proportion to how closely they identify with the title. As others have already said, you don't necessarily need to be a voluntarily child-free woman to recognize the unfair standards to which the aforementioned people are held by our society, or the particular struggles and/or windfalls to come from that decision.

There's a big gap between "mom" and "never having kids and proud of it," and plenty of women in that gap. There are people who are undecided, people who may be child-free but not necessarily voluntarily, there are people who may be caregivers but not parents who straddle both worlds. There are people who, as much as we hate being told this ourselves, change their minds. As long as everyone stays on-topic and respectful, then I have no qualms about them being here.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:13 am 
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What Erika said. I am child-free but not by choice, but I read this thread because I find it really interesting, and really helpful in making me think carefully about how I speak to other people, the language I use etc. (well that's the PPK in general really, but especially this thread). I have learnt loads from what other people have posted, and am grateful to have the opportunity to do so.


(ETA: this sounds really ungrammatical, but I can't work out why - sorry!)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:52 am 
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When multiple people report something, and the mods as a group agree with them, we tend to act on it. People have been (politely) asked to not post here because they were reported, not everyone wants to make a public statement that posts bother them. It's been said before, and i'll say it again: There is an entire subforum for parents. We have ONE thread where people would like to post sans parents. It's not like we're taking away your right to talk about it anywhere else, like facebook. And as always, you're free to PM any of the other mods and ask them to tell us to stop being douchwhistles if you think we're just being dicks for dicks sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:52 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
It's been said before, and i'll say it again: There is an entire subforum for parents. We have ONE thread where people would like to post sans parents. It's not like we're taking away your right to talk about it anywhere else, like facebook.


Call me a cranky semi feral dog and frog runner, but I emphatically agree with this, and appreciate that you wrote this, MBM. This is a great thread for all kinds of people without kids, whatever the situation, but I just don't understand why it is so bloody hard to have one thread without parent stories and diaper details. Just one. Please.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:54 am 
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Anyone is welcome to post in the Playground. Childless and childfree by choice people post there all the time, and that is cool. I was agreeing with JoPa and saying something that I hoped would provide comfort to those being told that they would manage - they're not wrong, children are very expensive.

We're all vegans, and this is a vegan forum and I think its problematic to tell someone that they can't post somewhere by virtue of their family status. We don't have a no straight people allowed safe space thread or a no white people or a Christian only safe space. I have been on this board for nearly 9 years and I have never felt excluded or marginalized by my race, gender or identity, until now.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:09 am 
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As I mentioned previously, I don't mind parents posting if it is related to a conversation and it isn't minimalizing someone else's concerns. I think what we have seen in this thread in the past though on occasion is the equivalent of mommyjacking. Personally, I'd rather allow everyone able to post but to hope that people would be conscious of the fact that not everyone wants to be a parent or like Jane says wants to hear about parent stories or diapers.

Or as Erika says, if people are respectful and stay on topic, I have no qualms with them posting here.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:16 am 
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Hey guys? Mods have modded. Let's move on please. Back on topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:21 am 
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Hey, Kelly? You're the one who arbitrarily decided that you own this thread and made up rules saying parents aren't allowed to post here. So maybe let the rest of us who populate this thread have our say, yeah?

Nobody has posted here about diaper duty and I have never seen any sort of 'mommyjacking' here. If someone steps out of line by posting here, then by all means take it up with them. Don't arbitrarily appoint yourself the Parent Police and tell people they're not allowed to post somewhere in the PPK, especially if they're already being respectful and on-topic.

ETA: Perhaps the solution is to have one thread where everyone is welcome to participate and one thread where people can be exclusionary.

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 Post subject: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:32 am 
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Post them here!

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The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:38 am 
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can you link to the specific discussion thread about this specific situation? cause i really don't mind respectful parent opinion here as long as it's not too longwinded or off topic. (i find it useful to read about opinions molded by experiences i've never had nor intend to ever have. keeps it from getting too stagnant and feedback loopy, and i generally wouldn't catch that particular opinion otherwise, since i don't generally read the playground.)

i wonder if the best solution would be to have a specific thread in the playground for parents' responses to things brought up in this thread. :-) that way their voices aren't stifled, and those of us who would find their opinions interesting can read them. (or maybe just make extensive use of the spoiler tags?)

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:40 am 
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I think the answer may be a different thread where everyone is welcome. There were posts in the past where parents seemed to encroach a little too much and went off topic but it has been many, many months since that happened. There were also many posts by parents that I enjoyed like Desdemona.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:45 am 
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Maybe we could agree to two things:

1. If someone who didn't know you could tell from your post in the "Women who have chosen not to have kids" thread that you're a parent, what you're posting is not relevant to the discussion and should be saved for elsewhere

2. If you have a comment on something someone said specifically that necessitates sharing your parent experience, you either PM that person OR if it's a more general topic (like, "how can people with kids and people with animals share a public space?") you make a new thread for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:50 am 
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Yes, C&S, I think that is perfect. I was also thinking that the PM idea is a good one. I'd just hate to say that 'you being a parent' makes you not welcome. If you come in and start talking about your kids, your pregnancies, etc, then maybe there are other places that are better to post such things.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:53 am 
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I didn't create this thread. I find it a troubling that a mod would create a thread in my name.

It feels incredibly violating that someone would start a thread in my name. Even if you are using one of my posts, I find it troubling that you can use my account to post whatever you want to. What is next?

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:59 am 
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No one created the thread in your name. The offtopic posts from the childfree thread were moved into this thread. Those posts have an earlier timestamp than the first post (viewtopic.php?p=888066#p888066) , so they moved to the top, which made your post the oldest. It's confusing, I know, but there's no way to change the timestamp on posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Can you delete my posts then? Let it start with MBMs, or anyone who isn't me.

I don't want anyone thinking I have issues with the Powers That Be.

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THROW A forking YAM IN THE OVEN ITS forking CHRISTMAS - LisaPunk


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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Yes, I started this thread with 'post them here' and when I moved them, the early posts went to the top and I didn't know that would happen because i've never moved posts into a new post before. I can edit your post to reflect that, but I can't post as you and even if I could, I would get fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:06 pm 
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I moved an old post of mine from the same thread that I didn't care about moving here and edited it.

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The tree is his penis // it's very exciting // when held up to his mouth // the lights are all lighting // his eyes start a-bulging // in unbridled glee // the tree is his penis // its beauty, effulgent -amandabear


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 Post subject: Re: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:14 pm 
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Here's my spiel:

I have never had a problem with the child-free thread, at least not to the point where I feel it would require a mod's attention. Any time I feel someone has posted something out of order, I address it with them in the thread and, for the most part, I feel like we resolve stuff amicably. If people aren't able to do that themselves and need to call the mods, ok.

It appears that the problem is that some people have been reporting tons of problems directly to mods while others (like me) have been experiencing little to no problem. There is a disconnect between those who see parent responses as problematic and those of us who want to discuss those responses in-thread. Those of us who have had no problem in that thread and who post regularly in it suddenly find a new rule that has been enacted as a result of reports that none of the rest of us knew anything about, and without any open discussion or consultation with the other active contributors to that thread.

What bothers me about the rule is that it is insulting. It insults my intelligence and my emotional maturity to imply that I need to be sheltered from people who are different from me. I can handle a difference of opinion, and I can handle telling someone politely but firmly that they're out of line.

I think it's very ironic that we allow anyone to join the PPK (including vegetarians and omnivores), that people who aren't even members or signed in can read most of the boards, and yet here we are being divisive within ourselves. I've been a PPKer for 8 years and aside from banning trolls, nobody is told where they can and can't post- it seems contradictory to the very spirit of the PPK.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:17 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
2. If you have a comment on something someone said specifically that necessitates sharing your parent experience, you either PM that person OR if it's a more general topic (like, "how can people with kids and people with animals share a public space?") you make a new thread for it.


the reason why i suggested one specific thread is because i can then subscribe to it. (heh) it might easily get lost if there are many new threads created. (some days i can only catch up on responses to threads i've participated in.)

but then, how do i go about responding to the parent? should i do so in the playground thread(s) or in the childfree thread? should the bulk of my response go into the childfree thread and then anything that specifically references the parents' comment go into the playground thread? (this is going to become so disjointed.)

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