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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:18 pm 
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It insults my intelligence and my emotional maturity to imply that I need to be sheltered from people who are different from me.

Maybe not you. Maybe other people feel it's a great relief to have a place where we don't feel like it's the status quo that we're freaks for not having children. I am ok with the thread either way. I don't think the idea of safe places in itself is insulting to anyone's intelligence.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:25 pm 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
Quote:
It insults my intelligence and my emotional maturity to imply that I need to be sheltered from people who are different from me.

Maybe not you. Maybe other people feel it's a great relief to have a place where we don't feel like it's the status quo that we're freaks for not having children. I am ok with the thread either way. I don't think the idea of safe places in itself is insulting to anyone's intelligence.


But this isn't creating a safe space. It's shutting down dialogue rather than teaching some people how to respect a safe space and teaching others how to assert their right to a safe space. How can I feel safe in a space where people can be arbitrarily blocked from posting if they get enough secret mod reports against them?

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Last edited by Erika Soyf*cker on Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:25 pm 
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VeganinBerlin wrote:
Quote:
It insults my intelligence and my emotional maturity to imply that I need to be sheltered from people who are different from me.

Maybe not you. Maybe other people feel it's a great relief to have a place where we don't feel like it's the status quo that we're freaks for not having children. I am ok with the thread either way. I don't think the idea of safe places in itself is insulting to anyone's intelligence.


Well I think the point of addressing the issue directly in the thread is a good one. There are no 'safe places' but I think that most people just expected respecting the topic. I haven't seen an issue with many months, not sure why all of a sudden it is an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:26 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
coldandsleepy wrote:
2. If you have a comment on something someone said specifically that necessitates sharing your parent experience, you either PM that person OR if it's a more general topic (like, "how can people with kids and people with animals share a public space?") you make a new thread for it.


the reason why i suggested one specific thread is because i can then subscribe to it. (heh) it might easily get lost if there are many new threads created. (some days i can only catch up on responses to threads i've participated in.)

but then, how do i go about responding to the parent? should i do so in the playground thread(s) or in the childfree thread? should the bulk of my response go into the childfree thread and then anything that specifically references the parents' comment go into the playground thread? (this is going to become so disjointed.)


I wouldn't suggest anything like having a response thread. It screams of passive aggressiveness. I think a PM to the person may be appropriate

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:29 pm 
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linanil wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
coldandsleepy wrote:
2. If you have a comment on something someone said specifically that necessitates sharing your parent experience, you either PM that person OR if it's a more general topic (like, "how can people with kids and people with animals share a public space?") you make a new thread for it.


the reason why i suggested one specific thread is because i can then subscribe to it. (heh) it might easily get lost if there are many new threads created. (some days i can only catch up on responses to threads i've participated in.)

but then, how do i go about responding to the parent? should i do so in the playground thread(s) or in the childfree thread? should the bulk of my response go into the childfree thread and then anything that specifically references the parents' comment go into the playground thread? (this is going to become so disjointed.)


I wouldn't suggest anything like having a response thread. It screams of passive aggressiveness. I think a PM to the person may be appropriate


THIS WHOLE THING screams of passive aggressiveness!

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Well that is why I think we need a new thread that doesn't exclude anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Thank you for expressing your feelings nicely, Erika. Let me explain.

When the thread first started, we had some clear examples of moms posting in there with 'before I had kids...' stuff, and it was patronizing. We pretty well nipped that in the bud. But over a period of time, we got reports asking why other moms were still allowed to post in the thread, and for awhile we ignored it but finally *I* thought it was a little unfair to ask some people to not post but not others. So I pmed someone and asked them to keep out of the thread and explained why, because other members expressed it. It certainly was not anything personal. I got back a positive, mature, agreeable response and I thought that was the end of that. If someone I am modding via PM has a problem with my modding, one would assume that they would tell me that problem in their response. And then maybe we could've worked it out differently. Honestly, if someone tells me they don't have a problem with what i'm asking, why am I to assume that it's going to blow up in my face? Why am I going to assume that someone who I was not talking to is going to come in after not posting for months and be the one to stir it up in the thread?

I can understand it from a 'it's the principle of the matter' point of view, but...why does someone who has children need to participate in a discussion about women not having children? If someone was in the Walking Dead show thread, and was like, "Yeah, i've read the books but haven't watched the show..." and was constantly posting, the question would be, why?

Since it was brought up, there has never been a time when a parent reported a non-parent for being in The Playground. It's not the exact same situation if you reverse it, 99% of the time. If it was the birthing experience thread and someone who hadn't given birth was trying to chime in with their two cents about how they feel women should give birth, I would absolutely tell them to knock it off. And that's the thing, we actually PM people all the time and ask them to not do things. Stop posting about this, don't post photos of actual poop, and so on. That doesn't make it a rule, and 95% of the time we have no issues going forward with that person. And sometimes people violate the rules we do have, and when we point it out to them and ask them to not do it again, they flounce.

None of the mods are on a power trip, and we don't get paid to do this. Most of us are actually pretty sensitive to people being upset with us, so when something like this happens where we think we've handled a situation and gotten the feedback that tells us we have, and then we find out that the exact opposite is true, it's not fun. The boards run themselves pretty well and the most we do day-to-day is delete spam. We certainly don't let our personal feelings dictate our moderating, because if we did, OH BOY (j/k, j/k). Behind-the-scenes tip: when we have a personal issue with someone, or maybe feel like it seems like one of us is just coming down on a certain person, we ask someone else to talk to them.

My endpoint, to reiterate: people reported, I responded, response was seemingly received well, I thought my job was done. I can't do anything about something if it's not said directly to me, so I do appreciate your up-frontedness, Erika.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:37 pm 
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The thing with having a single "parental responses to things posted in the women who have chosen not to have kids thread" thread (totally aside from drama potential) is damn that gets confusing fast. Who posts where? And are we checking badges at the door or what?

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:39 pm 
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dude, let's just have the parents allowed to post in the original thread with spoilers if they think it's too mommyjacky.

if the two people PM each other, then i'm especially not learning anything from the other side since their voices are completely stifled. (since i would unlikely be recipient of any PM.)

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:39 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Well that is why I think we need a new thread that doesn't exclude anyone.


Let's do it. Maybe those who are interested in such a thread can contribute suggested posting guidelines here so we're all on the same page before we start it up?

I'll go:

-anyone is welcome to post as long as it is kept respectful and on-topic
-no mommyjacking
-if you see mommyjacking, kindly and politely call it out
-if you are called out for a posting, do some self-introspective reflection and make an attempt to smooth things over with the caller-outer. It's okay to disagree respectfully!

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:41 pm 
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I liked C&S suggestion that is if based on your post, someone who doesn't know you could tell that you have kids, then maybe.. rethink the post?

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Yikes. I kind of feel as if I helped start this whole mess by responding to a post that seemed to have nothing to do with being child-free and everything to do with being rude to other people because they happened to be or have children. While I'm sorry if I inadvertently threw a match into a powder keg, I'm not sorry that we're having this conversation. To mix the hell out of a few metaphors, it seems pretty clear that nerves have been struck, buttons pushed, and probably some other things I can't be arsed to think of right now.

No one likes to feel silenced, and no one likes to feel as if their particular concerns and experiences are being disregarded or overridden by someone else's. For my own part, my (very occasional) participation in the child-free thread has never undermined or questioned anyone's choice not to have kids; in fact I've always done precisely the opposite. I'm extremely sympathetic to the pressures women face to have - or even want to have- children, and can understand wanting a place to talk about that experience with others who share in it. But, like Erika, I have a real problem with muzzling certain people in certain threads, and several other people "allowed" to post there seem troubled by that as well. In this particular instance, and as I've already said elsewhere, I've never based my own identity on whether or not I have children, and categorically reject the suggestion that anyone's opinion should be considered more or less valid according to what they've chosen to do with their uterus.

I'm also bound to say I found the comment about wanting "one thread without parent stories and diaper details. Just one. Please" pretty uncalled for. I'm not going to scroll back through 6 bazillion posts, but I honestly don't recall seeing anyone try to turn that thread into an Erma Bombeck column about their little cherubs. Moreover, reducing anyone's experience to "diaper details" is condescending, dismissive, and rude; what would happen if anyone else's choice were reduced to "playing at the arts & crafts table," or "perpetual student" (that would be me!), or "slinging hash"? I don't think that would be tolerated, because it shouldn't be.

Personally, I think it would be interesting to have a rational, intelligent, adult-level conversation about how women's identities continue to be tied to their reproductive statuses, and the ways binaries like the one being set up in the current discussion all too often wind up reinforcing that phenomenon, to the detriment of the feminist concerns I think we all share.

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Last edited by Desdemona on Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:44 pm 
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And I do agree with MBM, there were a lot of posts previously about "before I had kids..." or even "when I have a kid..." and it was patronizing. I mean sure if you want to talk about your kids or talk about how you said you never wanted kids but then you saw the light, then you got the Playground. If you want to talk about common human experiences that are unrelated to you as a parent, but rather you as a human, then go ahead and share.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:13 pm 
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I feel like it's always been effective when mods point out if a post is off topic or inappropriate in another thread, so I don't understand why that shouldn't be enough in the thread under discussion. I hate the idea of people being excluded from any thread by virtue of something like being a parent, as long as they respect the "ethos" (for lack of a better word) of the thread. Kind of like reminders in the Bachelor(ette) Meal thread to not post about meals you make for/with your partner.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:16 pm 
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Kelly wrote:
I really feel like parents should leave this thread for those who have chosen not to have kids


I spoke too quickly and too broadly. I didn't mean parents are banned. I just mean that if a parent is feeling very strongly and wants to defend something in a "momsplaining" manner, that thread is not the place.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:31 pm 
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lepelaar wrote:
I feel like it's always been effective when mods point out if a post is off topic or inappropriate in another thread, so I don't understand why that shouldn't be enough in the thread under discussion.


I think the point is that there are people who are uncomfortable with confrontation. Notice how none of them have posted in here in support of the parent-ban. I'm not knocking the mods, I know they're in a tough spot, and there are definitely instances where we need them to step in. I'm just not convinced this is one of them. If you want to assert yourself enough to make a reproductive choice that's going to put you in the outlier camp, you need to assert yourself enough to confront people when they're encroaching on your space. And you need to assert yourself if you're going to call for something like a blanket ban on People Who Aren't Like You. If you've done your best maturely and respectfully and no dice, then by all means call in the mods. But this to me just smacks of people going out of their way to find something to be offended by and then washing their hands of the confrontation aspect of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:52 pm 
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I prefer to confront someone in thread, rather than go to the mods. I realize not everyone is like that, so, I think supercarrot's idea of parents spoilering their comments in the 'chosen not to have children' thread is a good one. I don't want to exclude parents from the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:10 pm 
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jean wrote:
I prefer to confront someone in thread, rather than go to the mods.


I think this is how it should be- you bring up your concern with the person, and if you can't work it out respectfully, then call in the mods. I prefer to do this, and that's why I'm so irritated that (it appears) a group of people who haven't first attempted to reconcile in thread have contacted mods to the point where they think this is the only feasible solution, which kind of blindsided and gobsmacked those of us who weren't resolving these issues through mods to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I think the point is that there are people who are uncomfortable with confrontation. (...) If you want to assert yourself enough to make a reproductive choice that's going to put you in the outlier camp, you need to assert yourself enough to confront people when they're encroaching on your space.


I would rather you make decisions about how interactions should happen on the board for yourself rather than throwing me into a blanket statement about how confrontations/disagreements should go. It's your choice and jean's to confront people in thread. If I rather do it differently, that's my business, not yours. (eta: I could be wrong, but I don't think I have actually reported anything in the thread under discussion. Also, I prefer to do it this way since things which strike me as 'wrong' don't necessarily register as 'wrong' for other people, and I rather discussion continue as much as possible than derail it.)

I also really liked this:

lepelaar wrote:
I feel like it's always been effective when mods point out if a post is off topic or inappropriate in another thread, so I don't understand why that shouldn't be enough in the thread under discussion. I hate the idea of people being excluded from any thread by virtue of something like being a parent, as long as they respect the "ethos" (for lack of a better word) of the thread. Kind of like reminders in the Bachelor(ette) Meal thread to not post about meals you make for/with your partner.

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Last edited by lutin on Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:15 pm 
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lutin wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I think the point is that there are people who are uncomfortable with confrontation. (...) If you want to assert yourself enough to make a reproductive choice that's going to put you in the outlier camp, you need to assert yourself enough to confront people when they're encroaching on your space.


I would rather you make decisions about how interactions should happen on the board for yourself rather than throwing me into a blanket statement about how confrontations/disagreements should go. It's your choice and jean's to confront people in thread. If I rather do it differently, that's my business, not yours.


It becomes my business when someone's inability to confront someone else shuts down an open dialogue that others are able to handle and enjoy.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Just to clarify my position: I don't have a problem with people going to the mods. I agree that some things are better confronted in thread, but that's not for everyone. Also, in thread confrontation can lead to a bit of a row that other readers of the thread can be uncomfortable with. . That's why I thought supercarrot's idea was a good one, that way people can choose whether they want to read the posts of parents or not. I'm not disagreeing with anyone's methods, just wanting a solution, and I thought sc's was a good one.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:36 pm 
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jean wrote:
Also, in thread confrontation can lead to a bit of a row that other readers of the thread can be uncomfortable with.


And yet, I'm a reader of the thread who has been made incredibly uncomfortable by this non-consensus decision to unilaterally shut out certain PPKers.

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:17 pm 
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This is really silly. ANYONE should be allowed to read or post anywhere on the PPK. Whether it's relevant to the conversation or respectful of the subject of the thread is a whole other thing. When things like that come up, call people out. Or don't and report to a mod. But honestly, the idea that people can't post in a thread just because they've birthed a child is really...stupid? Limiting? I know plenty of PPKers who have children who have great insight in the child-free thread.

This should go for all threads, but if someone is being a butthead, call them out or bring in a mod. Does it need to be more complex?

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:20 pm 
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paprikapapaya wrote:
This is really silly. ANYONE should be allowed to read or post anywhere on the PPK. Whether it's relevant to the conversation or respectful of the subject of the thread is a whole other thing. When things like that come up, call people out. Or don't and report to a mod. But honestly, the idea that people can't post in a thread just because they've birthed a child is really...stupid? Limiting? I know plenty of PPKers who have children who have great insight in the child-free thread.

This should go for all threads, but if someone is being a butthead, call them out or bring in a mod. Does it need to be more complex?


+100

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 Post subject: Re: Problems with Modding
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:25 pm 
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OK, it has been suggested here and in the original child-free thread that we start a thread for those on the fence about having kids or not, and that perhaps we start a new alternate thread where input from parents and the undecided is kosher. I have futzed about with some rules for the latter and it's so ludicrous I'm doing this so please take a look and feel free to make any suggestions, corrections, additions, etc.

Proposed thread title: Thread for adults who do not have children

Quote:
This thread is for people who do not have children, be it by choice or circumstance, to discuss the difficulties, judgments, plusses and minuses of not having kids.

Because this topic is very personal, discussion about it can sometimes get thorny. Please review the following guidelines for keeping this thread productive and welcoming for all:

1. Anyone (including parents, the undecided, and anyone else) is welcome to post as long as it is kept respectful and on-topic.
a. no mommyjacking or daddyjacking!
b. try to keep your response proportionate to how closely you identify with the thread description above. All perspectives are welcome, but respect that this is a thread for discussion about being an adult without children.
c. in the spirit of being mutually respectful, please be friendly in pointing out any language or posting that seems off-topic or disrespectful; likewise, be graceful in accepting constructive criticism.

2. Do not disrespect or make assumptions about anyone’s reproductive choices and/or situations. This includes parents, future parents, those on the fence, and those who do not have children either by choice or by circumstance.

3. It’s okay if kids make you uncomfortable or confused. But this is not a thread for hating on children, period.

4. You may self-identify as you wish, but refrain from assuming others without children want to be called child-free. And of course do not use hateful words to describe parents, children, or adults without children.

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