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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:13 pm 
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Interesting study that Ginny Messina just tweeted about: http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/2/e003505.long

Findings were that a low carb vegan diet lowered LDL more than a high carb vegetarian diet (that included skim milk and egg whites). I'm not sure why one diet included egg and dairy and the other didn't. Seems odd to me.

Also interesting is that the low carb diet included a lot of things that are considered "processed" by current standards.

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The prescribed test diet was a low-carbohydrate vegan diet containing 26% of calories from carbohydrate, 31% of calories from vegetable proteins and 43% from fat (primarily vegetable oils). Carbohydrate sources on the low-carbohydrate diet featured viscous fibre-containing foods (such as oats and barley) and low-starch vegetables (emphasising okra and eggplant) for the relatively limited amount of carbohydrate allowed. The vegetable proteins were prescribed as gluten (54.8% of total protein), soy (23%), fruits and vegetables (8.7%), nuts (7.5%), and cereals (6%). Gluten was contained in the nut bread and wheat gluten (also called ‘seitan’) products. Soy protein was present in the form of burgers, deli slices, breakfast links, veggie bacon, tofu and soy milks. Nuts included almonds, cashews, hazelnuts, macadamia, pecans and pistachios. The fat sources were nuts (43.6% of total fat), vegetable oils (24.4%), soy products (18.5%), avocado (7.1%), cereals (2.7%), fruits and vegetables (2.3%), and seitan products (1.4%). Participants were able to purchase at the research centre the ‘no’ starch high protein nut bread and three of the seitan (wheat gluten) products used in the study which were not available in Canada.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:32 pm 
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There was a different study awhile back showing that a pretty limited vegan diet (lots of soy, eggplant, okra, oats, couple other things) lowered cholesterol as well as statins. I do think there is something to the idea that cholesterol is a problem of carbs+fat(+being sedentary), so if you remove the carbs you can eat a lot of fat and your cholesterol will still go down, likewise if you remove the fat and eat high carb, your cholesterol should go down. And the biggest determinant in either case is weight loss.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Jack Norris has a much less enthusiastic view of the study results: http://jacknorrisrd.com/low-carb-eco-at ... -6-months/


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:09 am 
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Cornelie wrote:
Welcome to the PPK zero33!

The low carbism has been slacking on my end (although I just had a lovely kale salad with tempeh bacon and a miso-tahini dressing for lunch). I could use some fresh inspiration. What sort of stuff do you like to eat?


That sounds yummy - I had a salad too. Baby spring greens with a little bit of diced cucumber, tomatoes and green peas with a dressing I make out of avocado & MCT oil with spices (sea salt, onion and garlic powder, oregano and a touch of ACV)... and a cup of soup that I made in the blender with tomatoes, coconut milk, onion, garlic, MCT, basil, ACV and sea salt.

Oh, and a nice chunk of 88% dark chocolate - oh yeah :)

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:04 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
Jack Norris has a much less enthusiastic view of the study results: http://jacknorrisrd.com/low-carb-eco-at ... -6-months/


Seems like not a good study of the effects of macronutrients if everybody was just eating fewer calories! We already know that weight loss is a big deal in cholesterol levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:48 pm 
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zero33 wrote:
Cornelie wrote:
Welcome to the PPK zero33!

The low carbism has been slacking on my end (although I just had a lovely kale salad with tempeh bacon and a miso-tahini dressing for lunch). I could use some fresh inspiration. What sort of stuff do you like to eat?


That sounds yummy - I had a salad too. Baby spring greens with a little bit of diced cucumber, tomatoes and green peas with a dressing I make out of avocado & MCT oil with spices (sea salt, onion and garlic powder, oregano and a touch of ACV)... and a cup of soup that I made in the blender with tomatoes, coconut milk, onion, garlic, MCT, basil, ACV and sea salt.

Oh, and a nice chunk of 88% dark chocolate - oh yeah :)


What is the thing with MCT oil? Any idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:03 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
What is the thing with MCT oil? Any idea?

MCT is just the capric and caprylic acids extracted from coconut oil and has a perfect 8-10 carbon saturated fat level.

I eat it to get into ketosis faster. It gives me quick energy and helps me with mental focus.

It is flavorless so I use it instead of any other oil in recipes that are uncooked - like sauces, dressings, mayo, etc. - and drizzle it over veggies to help increase nutrient absorption.

You can use it in cooked recipes too, but you're not supposed to take it over 320F.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:08 am 
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So, what makes that perfect? When I looked it up it seems like the studies on it are all comparisons with LCTs, which doesn't seem that impressive. I've been seeing it recommended all over, but can't find a good source on why it would be beneficial. Any sources to share?


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:35 am 
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poor choice of words on my part - probably just parroting something I read or heard.

I'm certainly no expert on MCT - I just know it kick starts ketosis somehow, and since it's liquid at room temperature it's easy to use.

I'll ask around for some links to studies and report back :)

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:40 am 
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Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:41 am 
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I wanted to comment on the cholesterol thing just based on my own experience. When both my husband and I went vegan, both our cholesterol dropped down substantially (eating a fairly balanced amount of carbs, 60% of our diet). After a few years, both our cholesterol has creeped back up with little change in our diet. My own theory was that maybe that our body was producing cholesterol as well as using what it ate, but then when we stopped eating cholesterol, it dropped down until it started making more cholesterol to make up for it. Neither of us have had high cholesterol though.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:21 pm 
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Yeah, I'm not really concerned with either weight or cholesterol. I think what Ginny liked from the study was that added oils and nuts didn't increase cholesterol, which is a popular argument in veganism these days. I mostly was interested because extremely low carb vegan diets haven't been looked at much, if at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:29 pm 
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And that result seems meaningless if the actual amount of fat being consumed went down among participants because they were just eating less.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:17 pm 
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@Ariann - in my search I was quickly overwhelmed... it may be better if you choose which ones address your specific concerns/questions...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

If you start typing "mct oil" in the search box it will auto-suggest several subcategories - weight loss, liver, brain, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:31 pm 
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So, not a whole lot useful there. Most of the research is in ketogenic diets for children with uncontrolled epilepsy. They say that you can make a ketogenic diet for those kids with MCT oil and because that oil is more ketogenic than other fat sources, you can include more protein and carbs than in other high fat keto diets. But we're still talking like 80% of calories from fat, and mostly the kids are eating small real food meals and MCT shakes supply the bulk of calories (sounds horrible). There doesn't seem to be research on using manufactured MCT oil over just using coconut oil. On keto diets MCT oil was found to be "not worse" than olive oil for metabolic factors and better than LCTs.* I still can't really find anything about the chemistry piece - why would MCT oil act in a meaningfully different way from other saturated fats?

*this was in research on weight loss and people with diabetes. There was very little on MCT oil and weight loss in general, though, like only three or four very small studies. Nothing on MCT oil and keto diets for metabolic issues without associated weight loss (and I think that is sketchy, weight loss just confuses everything).


Last edited by Ariann on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:34 pm 
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I'll add that I am less resistant to the coconut oil craze after reading all of that. Thinking of finally trying to make a coconut oil butter replacement. Although I'm not going to be replacing any olive or canola oil with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Sorry I wasn't able to help you more with that - good thing I'm not an MCT oil salesman! ;)

I found out about it while reading a multitude of different books, blogs, forums and papers trying to understand ketogenic diets. I didn't run across any reason not to try it - as long as you get the food grade - so I did and really liked the results. I'm right on track with my blood work and weight-loss targets, and getting ready move into phase 2 of my insane plan - cold thermogenesis - bwahaha!

I still use refined coconut oil for light sautéing, and olive oil for dressings or finishing veggies. I don't use unrefined coconut oil because the flavor doesn't appeal to me.

Have not tried Miyoko's butter recipe specifically, but when I was a card-carrying vegan I tried the other similar vegan butter recipes floating around at the time (Mattie's at veganbaking.net, Bryanna's everywhere, and another one that I shall not mention by name).

I settled on a hybrid that was basically Mattie's "regular" recipe but I used soy yogurt - Miyoko's recipe from AVC with double cashews for extra creaminess - instead of the curdled soy milk.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Which books? I am really interested in the science piece. Don't know that I would be able to read a book that was all meaty keto crazy, but I would really like to know what the deal is and it seems like someone should talk about it somewhere. I bet some of the NIH papers include the science piece in the introduction/design sections, but most of the full articles aren't available.

Yeah, I don't like the unrefined coconut oil, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:24 pm 
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well... none of the books are vegan friendly - most of them were "ancestral diet" focused which despite being heavy on the seasonal vegetables and totally against CAFO's, dairy and aquatic farms you will inevitably run into the topic of eating animal products even in the "vegetarian" versions. That is why I am searching for the holy grail vegan-paleo protein block. They say it doesn't exist - but if we can make cheese out of nuts, we can figure out how to make vegan-paleo sausage links.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:30 pm 
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So I am totally not into paleo because it is super non reality based as a philosophy* (I am into low carb because I have specific health needs that seem to be helped by low carb living, and it doesn't matter to my nutritionist what sort of food I'm eating as long as I'm hitting my nutrient targets), but if you are into paleo vegan living, you might like this: http://paleoveganista.com/

*it's lower carb, high in veg, and free of processed sugars and grains, so it should certainly help a lot of health issues, but the ideological underpinning is just scientifically/anthropologically confused and seems like just an excuse for rich people to eat more supermarket meat.

Eta: have you seen http://diy.soylent.me/? That's where I first encountered MCT oil. I decided shakes wouldn't be sufficiently satisfying and gave up on the design process after a bit of playing, but there are a ton of vegan, high fat and higher protein recipes already on there.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:25 pm 
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thanks! I hadn't run across either of those sites yet... the word "soylent" really puts things in perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:45 pm 
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The bio-hacking thing in your sig made me think you'd be into soylent :) That website was started in response to an actual company that is putting out a product called Soylent which is supposed to be a whole meal replacement for people with normal macronutrients needs. I actually think it's a cool idea and would probably be a help to a lot of people I know who can't get their acts in gear around eating regularly and sufficiently nutritious food. I just usually find when I have a smoothie for a meal I immediately just want to eat a whole regular meal after; liquid calories just don't do it for me.

There's also the paleoveganology site (don't know URL offhand), but that is more about actual paleontology written by a vegan, rather than paleo as a dietary philosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:38 pm 
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The soylent was interesting, but I can only envision myself using it in a disaster scenario. I'd rather make a smoothie and take a vitamin or something like that. I really enjoyed reading through some of the diy recipes - gave me insight into other people's ideas of optimal nutrition while at the same time helping me better define mine.

I've decided I to try re-integrating some tofu into my diet. It's the least processed option I can find, and I still have a hoard of soybeans stashed in my freezer. I'll make a small batch and eat it alone to isolate my reaction, and then expand from there if thing go well.

What are you having for dinner tonight?

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:04 pm 
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We had broccoli with basil pesto (plus a tiny serving of pasta which could be left out) and some very tasty local lupini protein product.

I think experimenting with soy is a great idea. Maybe you can try some tempeh too? It's even less processed than tofu (soybeans stuck together with a special fungus). If you can't buy it locally you could order the starter online to make your own.

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 Post subject: Re: Low carb veganism?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:48 pm 
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TVP chili, corn bread, and some sort of vegetable. I'll probably sub some almond flour for part of the flour in the corn bread to make it lower carb.

(I'm really more moderate carb than low carb. I aim for 2:1 net carb to protein for most meals.)


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