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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:41 pm 
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I take a B12 sublingual (Trophic brand) and have for years, every day. I had some weird stuff go on with my body after my youngest son was born 13 years ago and one of the things that happened was that I did not absorb B12 properly. It may not have been the pregnancy's fault, as my brother also has to take a B12 supplement and he is a meat eater. I was a part-time meat eater at that time too, a mostly vegetarian.

I like Paloma's idea of the pill boxes. I leave my vitamins on the kitchen counter to remind myself. I hate the clutter but I hate even more forgetting my supplements - multi, B12 and calcium magnesium. If I forget the calcium magnesium one I get cramps when I am exercising.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Paloma wrote:
It sort of felt like the silliest thing in the world when I started doing it, but a granny-type pill box next to my bed has been the greatest aid ever in taking my stuff every day. Just saying. Don't be embarrassed, just get one of those. It works.

If you care, there are pretty pill boxes out there. I spent years searching for one because I hate having my life look like a hospital. The best ones I've found are zippered stiff fabric cases with a plastic case inside with 8 compartments. Mine is made by Calvin Klein and is blue paisley-ish design.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:08 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Paloma wrote:
It sort of felt like the silliest thing in the world when I started doing it, but a granny-type pill box next to my bed has been the greatest aid ever in taking my stuff every day. Just saying. Don't be embarrassed, just get one of those. It works.

If you care, there are pretty pill boxes out there. I spent years searching for one because I hate having my life look like a hospital. The best ones I've found are zippered stiff fabric cases with a plastic case inside with 8 compartments. Mine is made by Calvin Klein and is blue paisley-ish design.


Mine is really pretty. It was a present and the girl who gave it to me painted it to look like a rainbow and it's fab.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Hey, I just had my D levels checked for the first time and hey came back at 33. My dr said that was low and wants me to take 2000 units a day. The weird thing is, I spent the whole summer outside with my kids and I didn't wear sunblock most of the time. I thought my numbers would be off the chart high. I have yet to start supplementing, but it is winter here in MI so I probably should.

As for B-12, I got my levels checked for the first time at the gastro dr, so there might be something to drs waiting for a person to complain of stomach issues before testing. I guess mine are fine for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:35 pm 
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What are the units? If its nmol/L, 33 is within the normal range: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... fessional/

If you have some other health issue going on, your doctor may recommend higher levels, but you should definitely ask and see what the reasoning is. Vitamin D is kind of the hot new thing right now. While deficiency can lead to problems with bone health, I'm afraid there is not strong evidence for maintaining higher levels. Some providers do believe that vitamin D is something of a panacea, but the evidence just isn't there yet.

The PA I see recommended supplementation with a fairly high dose without even testing my levels, but I wasn't comfortable with that as vitamin D is fat soluble and can accumulate and in theory have toxicity in high doses (although this is really pretty difficult to achieve). My vitamin D level was 35 nmol/L, and I am sticking with my usual multivitamin (400 units) plus a couple servings of fortified soy or almond milk daily.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Is it possible to overdoes/get too much b12? I take a daily multi vitamin that includes lots of b12, and use a lot of fortified soy milk and Kal nooch most days and probably eat several Cliff/Luna/Builder bars a week. I'm not actually worried that I'm overdosing at this amount. I'm just sort of curious. And this thread has me wanting to double triple check that I'm getting enough b12, so I'm wondering if it would be ok to add a little extra b12 on top of all of that, or if there is such a thing as too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:59 am 
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the rule of thumb is that fat soluble vitamins can be overdosed on (A, D, E, K) but some B vitamins can be acute if you take too much at one time. "High dosage vitamin A; high dosage, slow release vitamin B3; and very high dosage vitamin B6 alone (i.e. without vitamin B complex) are sometimes associated with vitamin side effects that usually rapidly cease with supplement reduction or cessation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_poisoning

B12 is relatively non-toxic, but these are the symptoms if you are taking too much
http://women.emedtv.com/vitamin-b12/vit ... icity.html

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Rhizopus Oligosporus wrote:
Is it possible to overdoes/get too much b12? I take a daily multi vitamin that includes lots of b12, and use a lot of fortified soy milk and Kal nooch most days and probably eat several Cliff/Luna/Builder bars a week. I'm not actually worried that I'm overdosing at this amount. I'm just sort of curious. And this thread has me wanting to double triple check that I'm getting enough b12, so I'm wondering if it would be ok to add a little extra b12 on top of all of that, or if there is such a thing as too much.


I didn't actually have levels checked after this happened, so please just take this with a grain of salt, but I started a different B12 vitamin in addition to my multivitamin and any B12-containing food I might've been eating, and after a few weeks, I developed this super uncomfortable itching sensation all over my body. I can be sensitive to soaps and dyes in clothing and stuff like that, but I hadn't changed soaps/detergents or tried on any new unwashed clothing. I stopped taking the extra B12 and made sure I wasn't eating a ton of nooch, and it slowly subsided after 3-4 days. Apparently that can be a symptom? I just take my multi and the extra dosage once or twice a week now...


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Yeah, I think my dr likes levels at 40, but I did see online that 33 was at the lower end of the normal range. Kinda why I haven't supplemented yet. It was my GYN dr so I am going to bring it up with my family dr next month and see what he says. I also believe vit D is the new big thing and I haven't gotten on the bandwagon. I think a regular multi vitamin with vit D would be fine since my soymilk and OJ are fortified.

I take a B Complex every other day and I think there is 60mcg or 1000% dv of B12.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:03 pm 
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I think you are talking about vitamin D levels? My B12 levels were at like 600 last time I had them tested. (600 what, I don't know).

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:32 pm 
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enmommy wrote:
Yeah, I think my dr likes levels at 40, but I did see online that 33 was at the lower end of the normal range. Kinda why I haven't supplemented yet. It was my GYN dr so I am going to bring it up with my family dr next month and see what he says. I also believe vit D is the new big thing and I haven't gotten on the bandwagon. I think a regular multi vitamin with vit D would be fine since my soymilk and OJ are fortified.

I take a B Complex every other day and I think there is 60mcg or 1000% dv of B12.


Your doctor isn't mentioning Vitamin D because it's "the next big thing"--deficiency has long been recognized as problematic. It's why the FDA started fortifying milk ages ago...now that a lot of people don't consume dairy anymore, it's once again an issue. Of course, other foods *can* be fortified but soymilk and orange juice rarely have more than 25% of your daily value and producers fortify few other foods. A blood test at the GYN isn't going to be any less accurate than one at your regular doctor and 33 is low (the normal range for D is 30-100, according to my doctor).

I don't mean to soapbox but D deficiency can be really dangerous, and even if it does seem to be trending on the internet/Dr. Oz show, it isn't a non-issue. You can suffer permanent bone loss if you're deficient for a long enough time; being low can also bring on depression (even if you don't normally suffer from it) and lethargy.

I think you're right to wait to talk to your doctor about dosage/source of D, but I wouldn't ignore it all together.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:49 pm 
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creep wrote:
Rhizopus Oligosporus wrote:
Is it possible to overdoes/get too much b12? I take a daily multi vitamin that includes lots of b12, and use a lot of fortified soy milk and Kal nooch most days and probably eat several Cliff/Luna/Builder bars a week. I'm not actually worried that I'm overdosing at this amount. I'm just sort of curious. And this thread has me wanting to double triple check that I'm getting enough b12, so I'm wondering if it would be ok to add a little extra b12 on top of all of that, or if there is such a thing as too much.


I didn't actually have levels checked after this happened, so please just take this with a grain of salt, but I started a different B12 vitamin in addition to my multivitamin and any B12-containing food I might've been eating, and after a few weeks, I developed this super uncomfortable itching sensation all over my body. I can be sensitive to soaps and dyes in clothing and stuff like that, but I hadn't changed soaps/detergents or tried on any new unwashed clothing. I stopped taking the extra B12 and made sure I wasn't eating a ton of nooch, and it slowly subsided after 3-4 days. Apparently that can be a symptom? I just take my multi and the extra dosage once or twice a week now...

I was taking a high-potency B-complex for a while, and every morning 15 minutes or so after I took it I would get this weird reaction where I turned red and got itchy, hot skin all over my body. It would subside almost immediately, but I never did put my finger on (ie. see a doctor) why I reacted that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Vijita, that sounds like a reaction to the niacin (b3) in your vitamin. Its called niacin flush.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:11 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
Vijita, that sounds like a reaction to the niacin (b3) in your vitamin. Its called niacin flush.

Ah! Finally! An answer! I don't think I was googling the right combination of terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:28 pm 
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tinglepants! wrote:
A blood test at the GYN isn't going to be any less accurate than one at your regular doctor and 33 is low (the normal range for D is 30-100, according to my doctor).

I don't mean to soapbox but D deficiency can be really dangerous, and even if it does seem to be trending on the internet/Dr. Oz show, it isn't a non-issue. You can suffer permanent bone loss if you're deficient for a long enough time; being low can also bring on depression (even if you don't normally suffer from it) and lethargy.

I think you're right to wait to talk to your doctor about dosage/source of D, but I wouldn't ignore it all together.


You said yourself that the normal range for vitamin D (in nmol/L) is 30-100, so 33 is NOT low. It is on the lower end of normal, but it is still normal and does not indicate deficiency. As I said before, there may be some reason why her doctor wants her levels to be higher, but for the general population, above 30 is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Beanitarian wrote:
tinglepants! wrote:
A blood test at the GYN isn't going to be any less accurate than one at your regular doctor and 33 is low (the normal range for D is 30-100, according to my doctor).

I don't mean to soapbox but D deficiency can be really dangerous, and even if it does seem to be trending on the internet/Dr. Oz show, it isn't a non-issue. You can suffer permanent bone loss if you're deficient for a long enough time; being low can also bring on depression (even if you don't normally suffer from it) and lethargy.

I think you're right to wait to talk to your doctor about dosage/source of D, but I wouldn't ignore it all together.


You said yourself that the normal range for vitamin D (in nmol/L) is 30-100, so 33 is NOT low. It is on the lower end of normal, but it is still normal and does not indicate deficiency. As I said before, there may be some reason why her doctor wants her levels to be higher, but for the general population, above 30 is fine.


yup! makes sense that her doc would want you to supplement vitamin D if she's on the low end of normal to make sure it doesn't get lower, especially going into the winter months. 2000 IU is pretty standard. Even though the RDA is much lower, a lot of medical professionals think the recommendation is too low. If the doctor thought she was deficient she probably would have prescribed a higher dose, like 50,000IU a week.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:51 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
Beanitarian wrote:
tinglepants! wrote:
A blood test at the GYN isn't going to be any less accurate than one at your regular doctor and 33 is low (the normal range for D is 30-100, according to my doctor).

I don't mean to soapbox but D deficiency can be really dangerous, and even if it does seem to be trending on the internet/Dr. Oz show, it isn't a non-issue. You can suffer permanent bone loss if you're deficient for a long enough time; being low can also bring on depression (even if you don't normally suffer from it) and lethargy.

I think you're right to wait to talk to your doctor about dosage/source of D, but I wouldn't ignore it all together.


You said yourself that the normal range for vitamin D (in nmol/L) is 30-100, so 33 is NOT low. It is on the lower end of normal, but it is still normal and does not indicate deficiency. As I said before, there may be some reason why her doctor wants her levels to be higher, but for the general population, above 30 is fine.


yup! makes sense that her doc would want you to supplement vitamin D if she's on the low end of normal to make sure it doesn't get lower, especially going into the winter months. 2000 IU is pretty standard. Even though the RDA is much lower, a lot of medical professionals think the recommendation is too low. If the doctor thought she was deficient she probably would have prescribed a higher dose, like 50,000IU a week.


Oops, I think the units I gave should have been ng/ml.

Anyway, I haven't yet seen any convincing evidence that levels on the low end of normal require additional supplementation, even "in the winter." If you already have a steady and adequate source of vitamin D in your diet, and your levels are normal, there is no reason to add an additional supplement, unless your doctor has a specific reason for suggesting it.

I do agree that supplementing vitamin D is appropriate for almost everyone, and I am certainly not arguing that anyone should ignore a potential deficiency just because vitamin D is overhyped. I'm just not sure where the 2000 units is coming from. I have yet to see any government agency or professional organization recommend that level, although I have seen many individual practitioners recommend it. I don't know what evidence they are basing that recommendation off of. There is potential for overdose with vitamin D, and while I think one is unlikely to overdose even with a multivitamin AND a few daily servings of fortified foods AND a separate 2000 unit supplement, the supplement is an added expense without any proven benefit.

Here is one recommendation from the National Institutes of Health, recommending 600 IU daily for most adults: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... fessional/


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Just to make it clear, I am not ignoring my GYN dr, I am just going to consult my regular dr to see if maybe taking a multi vitamin with 100% dv is okay vs taking the high dose of just vitamin d. I really take everything bone related very seriously because my mom has low bone density and I am built just like her. It is a part of the reason I like the vegan diet so much because I feel like I am doing some prevention by not eating the foods that may leach more calcium from my bones. I know it is winter coming up too but I am a sahm, and the kids and I get outside almost daily and even when it snows (which is only did like 2 times last year) we have even more fun outside.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:09 pm 
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I've heard even people in, lets say, super hot sunny areas who work on fields all day with no sunscreen, often test low or low-normal for vitamin D.

I'd say, even though your multi with 100% rdv is probably more than fine to keep you in the same part of the safe zone, why would you want to stay in the low-safe when you could be in the high-safe? Higher levels of D tend to make people feel that much better, energy, mood, etc. If you feel you can't afford the expense of the supplement long term then I get it, but other than that?

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:08 am 
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b.vicious wrote:
Veg_Eric wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
nooch is your friend.



Nooch is not a (reliable) source of B12. There is only one variety of Red Star nooch that has B12 added to it, but regular nooch does not contain B12.

I think it's sensible (and can have health benefits) to take more b12 than the recommended daily amount.

After all a B12 deficiency can cause irreversible damage.

It's true that not all nooch has B12, but Red Star isn't the only brand that does - Kal (the big blue can) also does.


i buy bulk bin nooch and had always assumed it had b12 added until i read this thread. i checked yesterday at earthfare and the nooch there does have b12 added. i was going to take a pic, but my phone was out of memory. i know relying on packaged foods is not always the safest bet, but i feel better knowing i haven't been b12-less as long as i've been shoveling into the bulk bin.

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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:29 am 
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I just popped two B12 caps. And left them next to my monitor--- I need to take them more regularly as well! And VitD...


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:47 am 
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Mars wrote:
I've heard even people in, lets say, super hot sunny areas who work on fields all day with no sunscreen, often test low or low-normal for vitamin D.

I'd say, even though your multi with 100% rdv is probably more than fine to keep you in the same part of the safe zone, why would you want to stay in the low-safe when you could be in the high-safe? Higher levels of D tend to make people feel that much better, energy, mood, etc. If you feel you can't afford the expense of the supplement long term then I get it, but other than that?

You have to be careful with anecdotal evidence, and of course the placebo effect. There is not yet a preponderance of evidence that supplementation of vitamin D beyond adequate levels is beneficial.

There is also concern about toxicity -- levels above 50 ng/mL can produce adverse effects, so we are looking at a range from 30-50 ng/mL for what is both adequate and (potentially) safe.

Quote:
The FNB [Food and Nutrition Board at the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies] concluded that serum 25(OH)D levels above approximately 125–150 nmol/L (50–60 ng/mL) should be avoided, as even lower serum levels (approximately 75–120 nmol/L or 30–48 ng/mL) are associated with increases in all-cause mortality, greater risk of cancer at some sites like the pancreas, greater risk of cardiovascular events, and more falls and fractures among the elderly.
Under "Health risks from excessive vitamin D" at http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... fessional/

How much higher than 30 does one need to be to get the supposed benefits? When should they get followup measurements, to be sure they aren't too high? These are questions that will require further study before people can safely jump on the higher-than-normal bandwagon. Of course, the question of whether there is truly any benefit will have to be addressed before any of those finer details are worked out.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:40 am 
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I'm so proud- I bought a B-Complex sublingual thing yesterday! And administered my first dose this morning. Woo!


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Beanitarian wrote:
Mars wrote:
I've heard even people in, lets say, super hot sunny areas who work on fields all day with no sunscreen, often test low or low-normal for vitamin D.

I'd say, even though your multi with 100% rdv is probably more than fine to keep you in the same part of the safe zone, why would you want to stay in the low-safe when you could be in the high-safe? Higher levels of D tend to make people feel that much better, energy, mood, etc. If you feel you can't afford the expense of the supplement long term then I get it, but other than that?

You have to be careful with anecdotal evidence, and of course the placebo effect. There is not yet a preponderance of evidence that supplementation of vitamin D beyond adequate levels is beneficial.

There is also concern about toxicity -- levels above 50 ng/mL can produce adverse effects, so we are looking at a range from 30-50 ng/mL for what is both adequate and (potentially) safe.



Mars: Anecdote about people working in sunny conditions having below normal vitamin D. Higher vitamin D makes people feel better.
Bean: We shouldn't use anecdotal evidence to recommend people to supplement to attain above normal vitamin D levels

Mars: why not be in the high normal instead of the low normal?
Bean: there isn't evidence to say people should be above normal!

It seems like you are talking about two different things.


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 Post subject: Re: Take your b12
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:40 pm 
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kimba wrote:
It seems like you are talking about two different things.

Hmm. Not really. I hope I can clarify here.

kimba wrote:
Mars: Anecdote about people working in sunny conditions having below normal vitamin D. Higher vitamin D makes people feel better.
Bean: We shouldn't use anecdotal evidence to recommend people to supplement to attain above normal vitamin D levels

I wasn't referring to the anecdote about deficiency and sun exposure--I was talking about the statement that higher vitamin D levels make people feel better being an anecdotal statement rather than a scientific statement that is supported by data from large numbers of people. There is currently only very scant evidence that higher vitamin D levels affect mood or any other parameters related to well-being. Certainly deficiency is bad for your bones, but there is not strong evidence that a level of 35 or 40 ng/mL is any better than a level of 30. All of those numbers are in the normal range.

kimba wrote:
Mars: why not be in the high normal instead of the low normal?
Bean: there isn't evidence to say people should be above normal!

I'm saying there is not enough evidence that vitamin D levels should be any higher than just above 30 ng/mL, which is the bottom of the normal range. Some sources list a normal range of 30-100 ng/mL, while the information from the NIH I posted above states that from what we know so far, the risks outweigh the benefits for vitamin D levels of over 50 ng/mL. 30-50 ng/mL seems like a relatively narrow window when testing for vitamin D levels is pretty expensive and unlikely to be done on a regular basis ("monitoring" likely won't be covered by insurance unless you have symptoms of deficiency or toxicity).

As I said above, there is currently no strong scientific evidence to promote a vitamin D level of 40 or 45 over 30 or 35 ng/mL. There is evidence that levels above 50 ng/mL might be harmful.

Does that help at all? Or am I missing something?


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