| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:40 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 1:42 am 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
For me, mine started out as being very mild and continued that way for a while and I never really thought it was rosacea just my usual sensitive skin acting up but it eventually got much worse and I really wish I would have seen a dermatologist about it sooner because now it has become very painful and much harder to get under control. But that's just me and rosacea comes in many different forms and differs from person to person. Your eyes are definitely most important though!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 5:03 pm 
Offline
Writes Vegan Haiku

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 29
VeganinBerlin wrote:
If the thing on the skin is mild, do you really need to do something about it?

But as far as my eye is concerned, if it really is what I'm thinking it is, than it's very freaky.


I would try to find out what's irritating your face in case it gets worse. It doesn't always, though. Just from looking around the office, there are lots of people who get skin problems in winter and are fine by summertime. (On the other hand, I had a few years of fairly mild symptoms that I could mostly ignore, before it worsened to a point where it interfered with living a normal life.)

I agree that you don't want to ignore eye inflammation, though. I think the term for this in ophthalmology is blepharitis, and I'd guess ophthalmologists understand it better than dermatologists.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:00 pm 
Offline
Memorized Veganomicon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 91
Location: GA
How is your vitamin D level? When mine is low, the rosacea worsens. Also, it can worsen with GI distress, especially acid reflux. If you don't have any of those issues, you may want to try a probiotic or digestive enzymes. Rosacea sucks.

_________________
"I'm sorry not everything tastes like rainbows and kittens! Some of us like candy that tastes like loss of innocence and pharmacy countertops and death metal." -mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:21 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
My vitamin D level is good but I definitely have stomach issues, heartburn and occasional bloating. I do take a digestive enzyme and in the past I did take a probiotic but maybe I should start taking it again.

Has anyone here ever had or know someone who has had ipl laser treatments for their rosacea? My dermatologist thinks I should get it and my parents want to pay for it for me. I'm very interested and I'm probably going to schedule a consultation.

Also, a friend of my mom's gave her the number of someone who is doing a study on rosacea at a university that work with your doctor and dermatologist and try out new treatments on you. I don't have all the details and I'm really not sure how I feel about being a test subject but I guess some of the other people that they've studied for it have really improved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:54 am 
Offline
Writes Vegan Haiku

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 29
TL;DR: I wouldn't do it unless you're at a point where damage from IPL or laser would be an improvement over the problem you have now, and maybe not even then. The risks don't seem worth it given the typically modest or worse results, and I don't think the doctors promoting these treatments are representing the risks fairly.

Longer version:

I haven't tried IPL or laser treatments for a couple reasons. One, my dermatologist, who sells laser treatments and is a well-known rosacea expert and dermatology professor in the UK, told me that laser and IPL are useless for flushing, though he does sometimes recommend them for treating fixed redness once the flushing has calmed down. Two, there are lots of reviews complaining of permanent skin damage and worsening of symptoms. Here are some pages with examples:

IPL has a 57% 'worth it' rating on realself.com
Rosacea Group forum - Do not do IPL
IPL and Laser Damage Support forum

For some reason I hear more negative things about IPL than laser treatments, but I think they all come with risk of skin damage and worsening of rosacea symptoms. Some of the negative reviews are from people who went to questionable practitioners, like an alternative therapist who went to a seminar from a manufacturer, but plenty of others are from people who were personally treated by reputable dermatologists with the right degrees and board certification. Usually the reviews say the therapist insisted there were no risks and that the therapy couldn't make their problems worse, only better.

I don't think damage is the most likely outcome. The rosacea forums on the internet are seemingly more full of people who have tried lots of laser and IPL therapists without any substantial improvement, usually at a cost to themselves in the thousands. There are a smaller number of people who say they saw a major or mild improvement, but it's never clear what's different between them and the patients who got a catastrophic result. Also lots of these people who report improvement were getting multiple therapies (medication, topicals, laser or IPL, lifestyle & nutrition changes) over a period of years, so it's difficult to tell what the long-term gradual improvements they describe are related to.

I think people who got a bad result might be more likely to write about it than people who improved, but people also seem to love writing about their improved skin, so I think the effect is not as strong as some people expect.

If you do get IPL or laser, I'd recommend seeing someone who has a history of performing these therapies on people with rosacea and symptoms similar to yours, and checking their reviews carefully online. Then I'd insist on starting with conservative settings and doing test patches. If the therapist dismisses your concerns, I'd politely decline and leave. There is a strong temptation to get too caught up in positive thinking and only look at the upside, and that seems to lead to lots of people getting treatments that they regret later.


Last edited by jrl on Sun May 12, 2013 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 3:54 am 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 1447
Location: Berlin
Kitties flock to me wrote:
How is your vitamin D level? When mine is low, the rosacea worsens. Also, it can worsen with GI distress, especially acid reflux. If you don't have any of those issues, you may want to try a probiotic or digestive enzymes. Rosacea sucks.


I have had diarrhea for the past weeks and I also had to throw up a few times. My digestion is definitely out of whack at the moment.

I had my vitamin d tested a few weeks ago and it was fine. But I havent been taking supplements since then.

I think it also got worse because I was in the sun too long. My skin hurt badly afterwards :(

_________________
http://www.veganinberlin.com
"Money ain't got no owners, only spenders." - Omar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:02 am 
Offline
Writes Vegan Haiku

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 29
I also wanted to say, if you have rosacea and significant GI symptoms, I'd suggest talking to a doctor about getting tested for SIBO. There are a couple studies that report treating GI infections also cures rosacea symptoms:

Rosacea and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth: Prevalence and response to rifaximin (Pre-publication write-up here.)

Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth in Rosacea: Clinical Effectiveness
of Its Eradication
(PDF here.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:16 am 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8180
Location: Brasil
My derm wanted me to get laser treatment and I was leery. Frankly my derm is a cosmetic dermatologist and always has the newest machines and I'm not 100% sure I trust his judgment.
But to be fair, I have a few other things going on that color my opinion- I have a history of melanoma (in multiple locations on my body) and I don't think I've seen anything that makes me feel like there is no risk from IPL. Maybe it's my own mania, and I'm willing to accept that.
Second, I had an accident about 15 years ago and lost most of skin on the left side of my face. It is great now, you'd never know, but some of the skin there is a graft and the rest is all much younger- i wonder if both sides of my face would respond in the same way.
Last, I keloid like a mother hubbard [even in my mouth] and never can tell how i'm going to scar. Seems like too great a chance to take for me.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 4:39 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
Looks like I might skip the IPL. I'll do some more research on it but it doesn't sound like it's for me, at least not at this point because my main concern is the flushing.

My current dermatologist is also a cosmetic dermatologist, I should have been a bit more skeptical about the IPL but I was pretty desperate at that point.

I'm feeling a bit optimistic today, something I'm doing or probably a combination of them seems to be making an improvement on my skin. I went out with my mom for Mother's Day and had a few moments of pretty bad anxiety and I didn't flush once. It's also pretty warm today and still no flushing!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 8:21 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
I just had a terrible flare up and I want to cry. It feels like boiling water being splashed onto my face. I had just finished eating a couple slices of the amy's roasted vegetable pizza and it happened. Looking at the ingredients I can't see anything that I can think of that would bother me. Maybe it was just a coincidence but I feel so disappointed, I thought maybe I would go whole day without it happening.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:52 am 
Offline
Banned from Vegan Freaks.

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:52 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Don't get upset every time you flush. I know it's super hard not to, but your just making things harder for yourself. At some point I said to myself, you have Rosacea, your stuck with it for the rest of your life, and no matter how much improvement you see your still going to flush and have breakouts and flare ups so just get over it, cause driving yourself crazy over flushing / breakout / etc isn't helping anything.

I would try every antibiotic and cream that's not an experiment before I turned to laser, IPL or being an experiment. There's still different antibiotics that you can try and different cream regiments, and you are not the first person to have to go through several different ones before you see results.

I don't wash my face constantly either! I know I should twice a day, but if I pick up a steady regiment of twice a day my skin gets too dry and starts to get a light red that is uniform all over my face. So I wash my face in the morning when I shower most days, some days I just let the water get on my face and don't soap it up. I'll wash it at night if I feel greasy, or dirty. If I go too long without washing I get pustules, so there's some middle ground of like 1.2 times a day with an occasional day off that seems to work for me.

I was also washing and exfoliating my face all the time because I wanted clear skin! And it was just making things worse. I hardly ever exfoliate now, I do it like once a month, sometimes I go longer.

I've also noticed that I switched birth control pills, for totally unrelated reasons, and my skins been less dry. Who would have thought. I think with Rosacea there's so many factors that affect it you can drive yourself crazy trying to pinpoint every single one, and that's a factor in it self.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:32 pm 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8180
Location: Brasil
alaina, that is so true about the washing- i run in the middle of the day, and twice a day i wash my face with water only. no soap. otherwise i Will Be Sorry.

Something that I tend to do when I'm having an attack (if i don't have the metronidazole with me, which at least in the moment makes my skin feel better during a flush. of course, i keep it in my fridge so i almost never have it.....) is put something cool on my face. icepack, cold soda, cool washcloth, whatever. it may be the wrong thing to do but it makes me feel better, and literally keep my cool.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:15 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
I know you're right, when I get upset about my flushing it just makes things worse and the flush usually lasts for much longer. It's just so hard to stay calm about it especially when I'm out in public.

I guess I just need to be more patient, which definitely isn't something I'm good at. I've only tried two different antibiotics and three different creams and I guess there are still a lot more things to be tried and I think the ipl would only be a last resort now that I've looked into it. There are so many risks and my derm didn't even mention them to me which makes me even more suspicious.

One of the first things my doctor tried for my skin was birth control and it ended up just making me break out all over my chest so I got off it but maybe I should ask my derm if she thinks trying a new kind would be worth a try.

I'm going to try just washing my face in the mornings now and see how that works for me, I think that twice a day is doing more harm than good for my dry skin. Also, something I tried that seemed to help with my flare ups was avene thermal spring water spray. It didn't make the redness go down or anything but it was cooling and helped my face feel more comfortable, I'm going to purchase a full size one next time I'm at my derm.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:45 pm 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8180
Location: Brasil
oh man i used to buy those and they were soooooo awesome! i don't remember what brands i tried but any decent spring water in a spray bottle kept in the fridge..... bliss!

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:10 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
I'll have to try putting mine in the fridge next time, or like you said any decent spring water from a grocery store and I'll just use my own spray bottle. More convenient and more affordable!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:17 am 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 1447
Location: Berlin
Just wanted to give head ups: I went to my doctor, she looked at my face and listened to me but she was more concerned with my digestion problems (and said my skin problems probably are caused by this) and now I'm doing blood tests and other stuff. She thinks I might be celiac :/

But I definitely do have flushing all the time. I mean, if it keeps like it is now its not too horrible. I hate it the most when Im at university and the air is bad and I have to leave the lecture because my skin just feels like it's burning.

_________________
http://www.veganinberlin.com
"Money ain't got no owners, only spenders." - Omar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:31 am 
Offline
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 8180
Location: Brasil
good for you, the sooner you know the sooner you can take measures to resolve it. hope it all works out soon and definitively.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:46 am 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 1447
Location: Berlin
I dont feel as horrified anymore, but man, the flushing IS annoying. I mostly get it in closed rooms and then I really crave soft wind and something cold on my face.

_________________
http://www.veganinberlin.com
"Money ain't got no owners, only spenders." - Omar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:13 pm 
Offline
Banned from Vegan Freaks.

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:52 pm
Posts: 353
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Korisnory wrote:
I know you're right, when I get upset about my flushing it just makes things worse and the flush usually lasts for much longer. It's just so hard to stay calm about it especially when I'm out in public.

I guess I just need to be more patient, which definitely isn't something I'm good at. I've only tried two different antibiotics and three different creams and I guess there are still a lot more things to be tried and I think the ipl would only be a last resort now that I've looked into it. There are so many risks and my derm didn't even mention them to me which makes me even more suspicious.

One of the first things my doctor tried for my skin was birth control and it ended up just making me break out all over my chest so I got off it but maybe I should ask my derm if she thinks trying a new kind would be worth a try.

I'm going to try just washing my face in the mornings now and see how that works for me, I think that twice a day is doing more harm than good for my dry skin. Also, something I tried that seemed to help with my flare ups was avene thermal spring water spray. It didn't make the redness go down or anything but it was cooling and helped my face feel more comfortable, I'm going to purchase a full size one next time I'm at my derm.


I know it's super hard not to get upset, and super hard to be patient with it. It seriously took me months in the antibiotics, and more months afterwards on the creams, before I was deemed in remission. I also went through the whole "I can't take this shiitake anymore go away I'm so ugly from this" part, and honestly the faster you get over that, focus on it less and do your treatments, the happier you are, even when your skin still looks like crepe. Just remember "IT WILL GET BETTER"

Birth control is another one of those meds you can try a bunch of before you find the right one, and it may not even do anything. I've switched pills several times over the years and this is the first time I noticed anything with my skin, and it's not a major improvement, but enough for me to notice. Part of the reason I switched was my periods were like I would wear a panty-liner for a day. And it made me feel worried and unhealthy. Basically I needed to get a period to feel sane.

That spray sounds delightful!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:53 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
VeganinBerlin, the flushing really is annoying, isn't it? But hopefully you and your doctor will be able to get everything under control soon! I totally understand that feeling of just wanting to press something cold against your face.

Alaina, I get hormonal acne, nothing terrible but it is annoying so I'd like to find the right birth control to help clear it up. Right now they have me on spironolactone for my hormonal acne but I've only been on it a week and a half so it's too soon to tell any improvement but I get dehydrated and dizzy SO quickly on it even though I drink plenty of water and I have to watch my potassium intake on it, I don't think I can handle this long term so I'm going to ask about switching the spironolactone out and maybe trying the pill instead.

I feel like my face is getting worse, maybe it's just a coincidence but I'm paranoid either the minocycline, the finacea or both is making things worse! My face seems redder and I feel like I'm breaking out more than usual. I am on my period but I feel like I have more pimples than usual. I'm also frustrated that I can't pinpoint any triggers, sometimes just sitting in a cool room watching tv causes me to flare up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:13 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
Ok, my face is most definitely getting worse. Instead of just flushing, my face is red all over and not going away. I wonder if I should stop taking the minocycline for a couple days and see if it gets better and if that doesn't work stop using finacea and see if that makes any difference? Or just keep on using both of them until my next derm appointment which isn't til the end of the month and see what happens? Do these type of treatments usually make you get worse before you get better?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:27 am 
Offline
Writes Vegan Haiku

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 29
Unless the acne is really papules and pustules (I just call them bumps) from rosacea, the antibiotics and topicals are treatments for a condition you don't have. They can help with redness around the bumps (perilesional erythema), but won't normally help with diffuse redness or flushing. This paper talks about it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3315876/

If someone prescribed me Finacea and antibiotics for flushing, I'd want to know their reasoning. I might keep taking them for a while to entertain the doctor, but I wouldn't expect an improvement.

If your main concern is the flushing and diffuse redness, some things that could help are constricting the vasculature in your face (alpha agonists like clonidine or the topical brimonidine that Galderma recently applied for FDA approval for), inhibiting the vasodilation (beta blockers like propranolol), or figuring out what's causing the flushing (not easy and possibly something other than rosacea).

I've also found that cutting out all topicals except for a non-irritating moisturiser (I keep mine in the refrigerator) and avoiding anything irritating like hot water on my face helped cut down on the redness and maybe reduced the severity of the flushing a little. I had red, dry plaques on my cheeks at one point from irritation. Your situation is a little different from mine in that you have some other conditions (acne and possibly what sounds like eczema or seb derm), so this might not be the best approach for you.

Diet also helps some if you can find any triggers: I flush badly to anything hot, nitrates, and alcohol. Here's a possibly dubious list of foods that contain substances that can cause vasodilation, from a story on NPR about Dr David Buchholz's ideas about migraine. I would consider whether any of those could be causing problems for you but would try not to stress out about it or go an extreme diet. I think celiac or a non-celiac gluten intolerance is also worth considering. I've seen a few people on rosacea forums claim their rosacea cleared up with gluten abstinence, but it's really hard to tell how long it stayed that way or whether it would have cleared up anyhow, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:01 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
I woke up this morning and from the neck down I am covered in hives! I have no idea how this even happened. I’m not someone who usually gets hives. I can’t think of anything that could have caused it except maybe the antibiotics? I wasn’t particularly stressed or anxious yesterday and nothing new happened. It was a pretty calm, normal day. I’m going to call the advice nurse at the derm and maybe my general doctor too.


Jrl, Yeah this is just a little hormonal acne on the chin and occasionally around the hairline that I’ve had probably since I was 17. It doesn’t really bother me but it seems to bother all the derms I see. It’s always the first thing they want to treat even though it’s so minor compared to the other problems my face has.
Thank you for that list of foods, it’s very handy. I’m starting to wonder if a lot of my problems aren’t digestive related. The last time I was at the doctor I brought up my heart burn and she was pretty much no help at all and basically said some people have it, some people don’t try taking tums! Ughgh!! It seems to be getting worse too. A terrible burning in my stomach that sometimes goes up to my chest and sometimes in my throat along with nausea. It’s starting to affect my sleep so I need something done about it regardless and if she’s dismissive about it this time I guess it’s time to find a new doctor.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:30 pm 
Offline
Writes Vegan Haiku

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 11:56 am
Posts: 29
Sorry to hear about the hives; that's pretty unusual. You might want to talk to the doctor about antihistamines, which are sometimes useful for people with flushing problems. It might also be worth ruling out mastocytosis. It might not be very likely but you have some non-specific symptoms that go along with it (hives, flushing, reflux).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Tired of rosacea
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:44 pm 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:02 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Oregon
I have been taking allegra for probably near 3 weeks but not very consistently. Mastocytosis that's scary! But It's probably something I should ask about.

I called the derm advice nurse and they want me to stop taking the minocycline. They're pretty sure I have an allergy to the tetracycline class antibiotics because previously I had a reaction to doxycycline.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer