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 Post subject: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:07 pm 
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There is a muscle-bound civilian gym-jock who works for me, and has on multiple occasions told me that veganism leads to diabetes. I've brushed him off in as nice a way as I can most times, but he did it again last Friday and, I wasn't a very happy camper that day. I called him out on it, and he told me to look up Hypoinsulinemia. So I did, and found absolutely nothing to validate anything he said. In fact, what I thought was correct, was more strongly confirmed.

I have Googled, and Wikipediad as much information as I can find about Diabetes, Hypo/er glycemia/insulinemia and its relationship to diet/veganism, and still found nothing to support a word he says. For the record, I do not have diabetes, am not at risk and don't have any experience involving diabetes, which is why I'm asking here, maybe someone does!

My question is, before I go rain on his parade, does anyone have any information that is contrary to this? I have a few links I'll e-mail/print out for him, so if you have a favorite article on this, or something, link it for me!

Diabetes Vegan:ADA control group study

Link 2

Link 3

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:42 pm 
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I am living proof that a vegan diet helps reverse diabetes. With the help of the PCRM and Dr. Neal Barnard's suggestions, I got my HbA1C from a 14 to a 5.4 in about a year. You've chosen some good links to support your side of it!

Oh, I've also just befriended this great doctor and the individuals involved in her study:

http://theplantrx.com/about/

Back to Dr. Barnard...tell Mr. Jock to watch this video, which does relate to the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:55 pm 
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Veganism will not cause diabetes. He's dumb. Eating poorly will, whether you're a vegan or not. Tell him a person with a Bachealors in Dietetics told ya this.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:58 pm 
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He may be thinking of the atkins or carb-free diets out there. I just did a quick search and found no link between hypoinsulinemia and veganism, but a possible link between it and carb elimination diets.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:06 pm 
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Another link:

http://www.pcrm.org/health/prevmed/diab ... index.html

Notice that a *lowfat* vegan diet is emphasized, which is what I am following and which helps me.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Yeah, Dr Barnard has a book on how to reverse diabetes (type 2) with a vegan diet.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:09 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Yeah, Dr Barnard has a book on how to reverse diabetes (type 2) with a vegan diet.


The book is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Pro ... 360&sr=1-1

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:23 am 
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Anyone who tells you to look something up on the internet as their only argument is generally full of it. He probably meant to say, hyperinsulinemia. He's probably trying to tell you that eating too many carbs increases insulin production which increases fat storage which causes insulin resistance.

It's a popular argument among the crowd that thinks saturated fats and low-carb diets are healthiest. (I do think vegan sources often do a similar thing with exaggerating the evidence about cow's milk and type 1 diabetes.) Here's a popular low-carb blog discussing this idea: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/diabetes/ There are several errors in his argument, but it does sound very convincing on the surface.

We still don't know what really causes most kinds of diabetes. For type 2 diabetes, excess weight, inactivity, and poor diet are factors, but it's still not clear what mechanism sets off insulin resistance in some people and not others.

As far as veganism goes, all of the mainstream preventative measures for any kind of diabetes are compatible with veganism. For type 2 diabetes (which is probably all he's talking about), that's mainly losing weight, eating lots of fiber, eating fruits, vegetables, and whole grains. Eating brown rice and legumes, in particular, have both been shown to reduce your chances of getting type 2 diabetes.

There was a very recent study showing a relationship between a fatty acid in cow's milk and lowered incidence of type 2 diabetes, but it's a preliminary study, so it's not clear if it was that fatty acid or something else associated with the milk (like vitamin D, which all cow's milk in the U.S. is fortified with, and which has already been shown to correlate with a reduced risk of type 2 diabetes) that had the effect. We'll have to wait for follow-up studies to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:51 pm 
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I'm type II diabetic (genetic...I didn't "earn" it from being sedentary, having excess weight, poor diet, etc) and while I went vegan for ethical reasons, my a1c is consistently under 6 now and I am not a super healthy vegan eater (I'm supposed to test my blood daily, but I rarely ever do...I just exercise, eat in moderation...usually...and get my a1c checked regularly). I love cookies etc and I eat them...lots of them.

My doctor told me a couple years ago that the latest research showed that a vegan diet was the most beneficial for type II diabetes. he gave me a printed copy of some article/study about it, but I don't have it anymore.

Anyway, yeah--I'm hardly a symptomatic diabetic at all now. Even if I wasn't vegan for ethical and environmental reasons, I would be for health reasons.

Also, as a former(ish) gym rat (was into fitness and figure competitions and was a personal trainer) who was a vegan, I can tell you 100% that a vegan diet is also great for athletes and even muscle-heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Many studies show vegans are at lower risk for diabetes and insulin resistance. (Some of these are about vegetarian diets, but still relevant).

Insulin sensitivity-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16164885
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15940383
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15523486
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14749752
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11591239
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10687887

Diabetes-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20713332
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20425575
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19386029
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19339401
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18349528
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17397638
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873779

Ask him to present a single study showing that a vegan diet causes or worsens either one of these conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:17 pm 
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I don't want to be mean, but I know this guy is a moron because he discredited the PCRM article because of quote "Vegan Bias". He then told me he didn't say Veganism causes diabetes, but a carb heavy diet will(which is NOT what he said, ever). Regardless, he told me to now look into Glucagon and "That soy doesn't produce a Glucagon response like meat, so your blood sugar levels are going to get whacked, overproduce insulin and become resistant." I looked into it, and found a Swiss article about patients who had their pancreas and some other organ removed that produces Glucagon, had no problems unless they already had diabetes. I also looked into what causes Glucagon responses, and funny enough, the only thing remotely relating to Glucagon:meat relationships was a high protein intake would cause a Glucagon response. He must still think vegans don't get protein or something.

But I'm preaching to the choir I guess, I'm not wasting my effort talking to him anymore, when he discredits PCRM as vegan biased.

Edit: Reading the last insulin article you posted Vegimator, I realize the title would just crush him:
"Vegan proteins may reduce risk of cancer, obesity, and cardiovascular disease by promoting increased glucagon activity."

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:28 pm 
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vegimator wrote:


This post is awesome. So many resources all compiled together!

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:20 pm 
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His glucagon comments make no sense. But really, I often avoid using PCRM as a source because they are a bit biased. They are one of the vegan groups I was thinking of that uses selective information when talking about what causes type 1 diabetes.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:36 pm 
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He's full of crepe. Both parents have diabetes as a result of their lousy diet and lack of exercise, and in my mom's case, crappy genes. I have been ovo-lacto veg (with several vegan phases and a year or so of "omni" where I ate fish) for more than 25 years. In my mid-40's now I have normal blood sugar, normal to low cholesterol levels, normal to low blood pressure, and despite being about 25 lbs overweight, do not have any of the heath issues that sometimes accompany carrying extra weight.

Eating too many simple carbs and processed foods and not getting adequate levels of exercise can cause more harm than eating a healthy plant-based diet.


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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Cawbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:53 pm 
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He's nutso. That's my input!

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:59 pm 
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I know this thread is a few days old now, but if someone tells you some bullshiitake like this and is adamant about it there is no way they are going to listen to you even if you present them with evidence. Next time he starts spouting some crepe you ask him to prove it. It's not up to you to prove that being vegan DOESN'T cause diabetes. You aren't going to find studies about stuff that doesn't cause other stuff. The onus of proof is on him if he wants to get into a debate with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:24 am 
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The Veganbetic wrote:
linanil wrote:
Yeah, Dr Barnard has a book on how to reverse diabetes (type 2) with a vegan diet.


The book is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Pro ... 360&sr=1-1


Heya veganbetic, thanks for the link! I'm not diabetic, but borderline. My last A1c was 5.5 though, although my sugar was a little high at 111 I believe. It was worse before, I'm only recently vegan, was previously veggie for just over a year before switching. I'm hoping my next 6 month work up is even better. :)

I did see your personal story over on that plant rx page though I think? Someone from there commented on my blog and asked me to write something too, wooo! :) haha

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:59 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
I know this thread is a few days old now, but if someone tells you some bullshiitake like this and is adamant about it there is no way they are going to listen to you even if you present them with evidence. Next time he starts spouting some crepe you ask him to prove it. It's not up to you to prove that being vegan DOESN'T cause diabetes. You aren't going to find studies about stuff that doesn't cause other stuff. The onus of proof is on him if he wants to get into a debate with you.


This makes me wish there were like buttons here.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:17 am 
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I'm doin' Atkins. No cawbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:52 pm 
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beyondwillpower wrote:
The Veganbetic wrote:
linanil wrote:
Yeah, Dr Barnard has a book on how to reverse diabetes (type 2) with a vegan diet.


The book is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Neal-Barnards-Pro ... 360&sr=1-1


Heya veganbetic, thanks for the link! I'm not diabetic, but borderline. My last A1c was 5.5 though, although my sugar was a little high at 111 I believe. It was worse before, I'm only recently vegan, was previously veggie for just over a year before switching. I'm hoping my next 6 month work up is even better. :)

I did see your personal story over on that plant rx page though I think? Someone from there commented on my blog and asked me to write something too, wooo! :) haha


You're so welcome---and here's to your future-improved 6-month work up. Yay, you! :-)

Yeah, that was me on the Plant RX page. And I'm gonna go check out your blog!

Did you see the latest stats re: the US and diabetes?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/50048/

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:21 pm 
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When you say your bG was a little high at 111, do you mean a fasting bG?

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:42 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
When you say your bG was a little high at 111, do you mean a fasting bG?


Sorry, yes, fasting.

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Quote:

Heya veganbetic, thanks for the link! I'm not diabetic, but borderline. My last A1c was 5.5 though, although my sugar was a little high at 111 I believe. It was worse before, I'm only recently vegan, was previously veggie for just over a year before switching. I'm hoping my next 6 month work up is even better. :)

I did see your personal story over on that plant rx page though I think? Someone from there commented on my blog and asked me to write something too, wooo! :) haha
You're so welcome---and here's to your future-improved 6-month work up. Yay, you! :-)

Yeah, that was me on the Plant RX page. And I'm gonna go check out your blog!

Did you see the latest stats re: the US and diabetes?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/50048/


Thanks for the link, those stats are truly depressing. :(

and thanks for wishing me a good work up:)

I had my first day today for getting started in this study I'm doing. I've lost 4 lbs since they first screened me for it early this month. I hate going to the doc but I wanted in this study pretty badly and now I'm in and I like going to this place better than my gp's office. ha. So, it's a 2 year long study and they will check my labs every 6 months. (and pay me 125$ each time!) ha. woooo! ;)

I was sad to find out that I'm not in the study group that I was SO hoping to be in. Meh. Oh well. I'll still rock my blood test results. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Veganism and Health Issues
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Yeah, I guess 111 is a little high for fasting. Of course, to get a better picture of what's up with your blood sugars, you'd need to be testing regularly.

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