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 Post subject: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:04 am 
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For reasons outlined in this entry (http://theveggiegoth.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/the-no-fu-manifesto/) on my blog, The Adventures of Veggie Goth!, I have to go almost totally soy-free (for those of you who can't get the link to work or don't want to leave this forum, the TL;DR version is, "Veggie Goth is self-conscious about the fact that tofu turns her into the Bearded Lady [and also just doesn't like it, although tempeh is pretty friggin' awesome]."), and I'm not really happy that so few completely soy-free vegan cookbooks exist in the world. (Although if anybody has anything to say about The Mediterranean Vegan Kitchen or Vegan Italiano, please to share?)

So I've decided I want to write the Big Bad Mother Monster of soy-free vegan cookbooks. Does anyone have any tips or particularly beloved recipes you'd like to share?


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:15 am 
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I don't mean to be overly critical here but I doubt that eating tofu is causing you to grow hair. Also this is a great little nugget from your blog:
"I don’t regret going veg at all. I know why I did it, and I’ll stand by those reasons as long as I’m meatless. But I’m not going to lie: For the most part, I don’t associate with other veg*ns. Why not, you ask? Sanctimony. The idea that because I don’t eat meat, I’m somehow better than all the lowlife scum that do.

I hate sanctimony. I always have and I always will. So you don’t eat meat. CONGRATU-FUCKING-LATIONS. You’re still mortal; if you were hit by a bus tomorrow, you’d either die or be seriously injured. You’re still fallible, you still make mistakes, you still put your pants on one leg at a time like every other plebe out there. You’re no better than me because you’re a strict vegan and I’m not, and I’m no better than anyone who eats meat just because they do and I don’t."


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:34 am 
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What's the scientific basis for soy promoting body hair in females?


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:03 pm 
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The part about not being able to prepare tofu that tastes good is really selling it to me. PubMed's got nothing on soy causing hirsutism.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:21 am 
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Soy is not harmful to everyone's health, but for those with underlying issues, it is not a contributor to good health. I don't consider it controversial myself, but I know a lot of vegans that do strongly, almost emotionally, relate to soy. I have autoimmune thyroid disease and, whether PubMed says it or not, soy does definitely have strong effects on the thyroid and, therefore, I do not consume it. And, thyroid issues can cause hirsutism...among a bevy of other symptoms. Backing me up on this? = my (vegan) naturopath...who is also a nutrition specialist...and vegan, did I mention that?...naturopaths go through four years of school to study the body and the effects of foods on it...and believe me, she is def. not a tool of the meat or dairy industry. Of course, it depends on the individual...but almost nothing is good for everyone...one person's nourishment is another person's poison. I have been a vegan for going on 30 years, and I have had about enough of the insinuation that, because I don't think soy is the perfect food, that I am somehow controversial or anti-vegan...or a plant from the meat industry. Far from it. I was vegan when lots of ya's were still being born!


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:22 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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Sorry to get on my soapbox, but it is something for vegans - especially younger vegans - to think about. And I will look forward to this and any other future cookbooks that offer some soy-free recipe inspiration!


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:41 am 
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Hello, fellow Hoosier. I passionately love tofu, but sometimes I eat too much soy (just like you can eat too much of anything), so I'd love to have a soy-free vegan cookbook. Especially if it's still hearty, "meat"y food that's easy to cook on a weeknight.

Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:19 am 
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Shrug. I don't think anyone here is attempting to persuade people to eat something they don't want to eat, but making health claims is another matter.

Thyroid. 2006 Mar;16(3):249-58.
Quote:
Soy foods are a traditional staple of Asian diets but because of their purported health benefits they have become popular in recent years among non-Asians, especially postmenopausal women. There are many bioactive soybean components that may contribute to the hypothesized health benefits of soy but most attention has focused on the isoflavones, which have both hormonal and nonhormonal properties. However, despite the possible benefits concerns have been expressed that soy may be contraindicated for some subsets of the population. One concern is that soy may adversely affect thyroid function and interfere with the absorption of synthetic thyroid hormone. Thus, the purpose of this review is to evaluate the relevant literature and provide the clinician guidance for advising their patients about the effects of soy on thyroid function. In total, 14 trials (thyroid function was not the primary health outcome in any trial) were identified in which the effects of soy foods or isoflavones on at least one measure of thyroid function was assessed in presumably healthy subjects; eight involved women only, four involved men, and two both men and women. With only one exception, either no effects or only very modest changes were noted in these trials. Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function. In contrast, some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients. However, hypothyroid adults need not avoid soy foods. In addition, there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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Chipmunk wrote:
Shrug. I don't think anyone here is attempting to persuade people to eat something they don't want to eat, but making health claims is another matter.

Thyroid. 2006 Mar;16(3):249-58.
Quote:
Soy foods are a traditional staple of Asian diets but because of their purported health benefits they have become popular in recent years among non-Asians, especially postmenopausal women. There are many bioactive soybean components that may contribute to the hypothesized health benefits of soy but most attention has focused on the isoflavones, which have both hormonal and nonhormonal properties. However, despite the possible benefits concerns have been expressed that soy may be contraindicated for some subsets of the population. One concern is that soy may adversely affect thyroid function and interfere with the absorption of synthetic thyroid hormone. Thus, the purpose of this review is to evaluate the relevant literature and provide the clinician guidance for advising their patients about the effects of soy on thyroid function. In total, 14 trials (thyroid function was not the primary health outcome in any trial) were identified in which the effects of soy foods or isoflavones on at least one measure of thyroid function was assessed in presumably healthy subjects; eight involved women only, four involved men, and two both men and women. With only one exception, either no effects or only very modest changes were noted in these trials. Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function. In contrast, some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients. However, hypothyroid adults need not avoid soy foods. In addition, there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate.



I live in Asia and have had this discussion multiple times with Asians - they def. don't eat as much soy as the average American vegan. And the soy they eat undoubtedly would take the form of soy sauce, tofu or soy milk - nothing more processed than that, such as a Morningstar veggie burger or soy lunch meat, for example. That stuff doesn't exist here. Also, they eat plenty of things in huge quantities here in Asia - fish, fish sauce and products, white rice and hardly ever brown, fried foods, meat, meat flavoring, metric tons of MSG - that we don't consume or hardly consume as American vegans. So I don't know what you were getting at, but it is really like comparing apples and oranges...totally different playing field as far as diet.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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And again, I am not saying that soy is "bad" or "bad" for everyone...I am saying that, as I stated clearly above, one (wo)man's nourishment is another's poison.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:35 pm 
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What Chipmunk appears to be saying is that science says one thing and your belief says another. There is simply no scientific data to back up your claim. You may choose to avoid certain foods but that doesn't mean that there is valid evidence to back up your choice. When there is scientific evidence to the contrary, Chipmunk will change her mind. That's the cool thing about science vs faith.

Processed food is a red herring (not vegan!). Tofu is processed. Soy milk is processed. It's a word that has been rendered nearly devoid of meaning.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:59 pm 
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I've heard Cousin It was just an ordinary little person, until he started eating soy.

Image

Also, on a more serious note, if you are looking for recipes that aren't heavy on soy, I find that Isa Moskowitz's books tend to be more bean/nut centered. You may want to try Appetite for Reduction for example.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:12 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
What Chipmunk appears to be saying is that science says one thing and your belief says another. There is simply no scientific data to back up your claim. You may choose to avoid certain foods but that doesn't mean that there is valid evidence to back up your choice. When there is scientific evidence to the contrary, Chipmunk will change her mind. That's the cool thing about science vs faith.

Processed food is a red herring (not vegan!). Tofu is processed. Soy milk is processed. It's a word that has been rendered nearly devoid of meaning.



You mean you think there is an equal amount of processing (read processes done, chemicals added, etc.) needed to make a block of tofu versus a Morningstar Farms' veggie burger? I think you need to go back to the drawing board and think a bit more.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:20 pm 
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And this whole discussion illustrates something that I find so strange in today's vegan community (and I repeat, I have been a vegan since many of you were in diapers, and still am a proud vegan) - it is impossible to rationally discuss the relative merits and disadvantages of soy in this community. Its almost become an emotionally driven issue instead of rational discussion. I mention that I avoid soy and most (younger) vegans I know cringe, and I can almost see the wheels turning in their head ("plant! secretly eats meat! fake vegan!).

The truth is, I also have to avoid cabbage, kale and brussel sprouts, along with soy, because all of these foods belong to a class of foods with thyroid-inhibiting substances called "goitrogens"...so friend, I suggest YOU look a big harder into the utilization of the scientific method in promotion of better nutrition, and stop getting emotional when someone with a thyroid problem politely tells you they avoid soy for health reasons. Because right now your smug attitude is almost physically palpable.

Also, I am pretty sure my doc is familiar with the scientific method, and science, because she completed almost a decade of med school...and she has told me to avoid soy, along with the other goitrogenic foods. This supposition was not based on her emotion that day, but real research. But I suppose you only support the scientific method when it agrees with your argument?


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I've heard Cousin It was just an ordinary little person, until he started eating soy.

Image

Also, on a more serious note, if you are looking for recipes that aren't heavy on soy, I find that Isa Moskowitz's books tend to be more bean/nut centered. You may want to try Appetite for Reduction for example.



I have them already and they are very helpful and amongst the only vegan cookbooks I have that do not rely on soy products almost exclusively. I am in the market for more cookbooks though, like these, and am not finding much.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:30 pm 
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zabber8 wrote:
(and I repeat, I have been a vegan since many of you were in diapers, and still am a proud vegan)


I don't know why you keep repeating that. Do you think it gives you any special credibility? Chipmunk provided scientific sourced information, and you are free to provide anything you'd like to support your thesis and all of us will make our own decisions. Just saying "My naturopath told me so," isn't going to be as convincing as actual scientific data.

zabber8 wrote:
it is impossible to rationally discuss the relative merits and disadvantages of soy in this community. Its almost become an emotionally driven issue instead of rational discussion. I mention that I avoid soy and most (younger) vegans I know cringe, and I can almost see the wheels turning in their head ("plant! secretly eats meat! fake vegan!).


That seems like a bit of a stretch. We are having a rational discussion, no one here cares if you or the OP eats soy, but just to state that it causes hirsuteness without any other material to back it up seems problematic.

zabber8 wrote:
The truth is, I also have to avoid cabbage, kale and brussel sprouts, along with soy, because all of these foods belong to a class of foods with thyroid-inhibiting substances called "goitrogens"...so friend, I suggest YOU look a big harder into the utilization of the scientific method in promotion of better nutrition, and stop getting emotional when someone with a thyroid problem politely tells you they avoid soy for health reasons. Because right now your smug attitude is almost physically palpable.

Also, I am pretty sure my doc is familiar with the scientific method, and science, because she completed almost a decade of med school...and she has told me to avoid soy, along with the other goitrogenic foods. This supposition was not based on her emotion that day, but real research. But I suppose you only support the scientific method when it agrees with your argument?


But no one was talking about goitrogens. If your particular medical situation requires that you avoid soy, it certainly makes sense for you to do so.

I really don't see anyone getting emotional about this besides you.

That said, I do understand that it is harder to find vegan food (or any food) that is soy-free, and I certainly hope you find some resources to help you do that.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:38 pm 
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But no one was talking about goitrogens. If your particular medical situation requires that you avoid soy, it certainly makes sense for you to do so.[/quote]

So if I say that soy has a compound in it that interferes with thyroid function, you disagree...but if I say that soy has a compound in it called a goitrogen that interferes with thyroid function, you agree?

Also, thyroid problems (which you just admitted can be caused goitrogens...which are found in soy) can cause excessive hairiness...read a bit of science and see...so that pic you put up of Cousin It was actually quite catty.

And yes, I am proud of the fact that I am a pioneer of this movement and will continue to mention it when I feel it is relevant. I earned that.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Again, if you have been advised to avoid soy, given your particular medical situation, you should do so.

But if you'd like to convince the rest of us to do so, it would be nice if you gave us some scientific data or other information so that we can evaluate it and make up our own minds. The fact that your naturopath said so or that you're a pioneer of this movement doesn't really give me much of a reason why I should avoid it.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:50 pm 
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I NEVER said "everyone should avoid soy" and repeatedly said "one (wo)man's nourishment is another (wo)man's poison", but you seem to have tuned that out. Yes, there are certain people that should avoid soy. Do I know if that is you? No. And I never said I did...that obv. is between you and your doctor. But you having put up a photo of Cousin It when the original poster mentioned medical issues she was having that may have been related to her thyroid's absorption of soy...totally rude...and indicative of your dismissive attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Chipmunk wrote:
Shrug. I don't think anyone here is attempting to persuade people to eat something they don't want to eat, but making health claims is another matter.


+1 yummy

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Chipmunk wrote:
Shrug. I don't think anyone here is attempting to persuade people to eat something they don't want to eat, but making health claims is another matter.


+1 yummy


But if you'd like to convince the rest of us to do so, it would be nice if you gave us some scientific data or other information so that we can evaluate it and make up our own minds. The fact that your naturopath said so or that you're a pioneer of this movement doesn't really give me much of a reason why I should avoid it.



This is like arguing with a child. Sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:07 pm 
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zabber8 wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
But if you'd like to convince the rest of us to do so, it would be nice if you gave us some scientific data or other information so that we can evaluate it and make up our own minds. The fact that your naturopath said so or that you're a pioneer of this movement doesn't really give me much of a reason why I should avoid it.


This is like arguing with a child. Sigh.


Do your children regularly ask you to provide rational arguments or scientific data?

I am actually very interested in knowing more about the soy issue. I'd just like to see something more convincing than "my naturopath told me to."

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:21 am 
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I don't think it's 'arguing with a child', more like 'arguing at'.

One of the nice things about the PPK is that it hosts people of all ages, another is that some of them are even scientists. Probably best not to assume you're talking to a bunch of juvenile, ignorant vegans.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:42 am 
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^this. I don't recognise this "emotional attachment to soy" you talk about in myself, my family, my friends nor the many vegans I know. I don't see anyone getting aerated in this discussion except you. And the flippant jokes people are making at your expense seem to stem from some of the rather, if I may say so, arrogant assertions in your posts - how lovely to have been a vegan for many years: it doesn't automatically mean you have any special insight into the chemical impact of soya consumption on the endocrine system. And, please be aware that you are not the only vegan on the forum of many decades standing.

From my own point of view, when the first claims of soya affecting thyroid in otherwise healthy individuals began to emerge many years ago, I looked into all the links and studies that were being referenced and found most of them to be simply opinion pieces. I'm open to good information, and am very willing to change my mind when the evidence is there, but in the same way that I'm not going to stop vaccinating without sufficient and sound evidence rather than woo, no matter how shrilly an antivaxer may shout, I haven't read anything that suggests that people with normal and healthy thyroid function are negatively affected by normal levels of soya consumption, nor any evidence of it making women grow excessive body hair, nor cause men to grow breasts. I'm assuming you, as a mature person, understand the difference between evidence and opinion - and that the opinion of your naturopath, nor your experience as a person with a dysfunctional thyroid, isn't really relevant - although if you have links for peer-reviewed studies, I'd be keen to read them.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:48 am 
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Ruby Rose wrote:
^this. I don't recognise this "emotional attachment to soy" you talk about in myself, my family, my friends nor the many vegans I know. I don't see anyone getting aerated in this discussion except you. And the flippant jokes people are making at your expense seem to stem from some of the rather, if I may say so, arrogant assertions in your posts - how lovely to have been a vegan for many years: it doesn't automatically mean you have any special insight into the chemical impact of soya consumption on the endocrine system. And, please be aware that you are not the only vegan on the forum of many decades standing.

From my own point of view, when the first claims of soy affecting thyroid in otherwise healthy individuals began to emerge many years ago, I looked into all the links and studies that were being referenced and found most of them to be simply opinion pieces. I'm open to good information, and am very willing to change my mind when the evidence is there, but in the same way that I'm not going to stop vaccinating without sufficient and sound evidence rather than woo, no matter how shrilly an antivaxer may shout, I haven't read anything that suggests that people with normal and healthy thyroid function are negatively affected by normal levels of soya consumption, nor any evidence of it making women grow excessive body hair, nor cause men to grow breasts. I'm assuming you, as a mature person, understand the difference between evidence and opinion - and that the opinion of your naturopath, nor your experience as a person with a dysfunctional thyroid, isn't really relevant - although if you have links for peer-reviewed studies, I'd be keen to read them.


Again, like the last poster, you are reading with your heart and not your mind. I NEVER STATED once during this whole conversation, that soy PRODUCED thyroid problems. What I did say, and please read carefully instead of skimming before you make accusations, is that in PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN PRE-EXISTING TROUBLES soy is not recommended because it further inhibits thyroid function. This is where, in my opinion that, through the attitude you displayed in this conversation, you and the other poster have proven my theory in spades about the modern vegan community getting defensive and emotional when any soy negatives are discussed. It is a classified as a goitrogen, meaning a substance that produces goiters...of the thyroid...and my MD endocrinologist was the one who tipped me off to it. Do you suspect that she is making rash statements and not reading "science"?


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