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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:52 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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Also, I refrained from posting articles, because you can google as well as I can, but here is an explanation...froma scientifically motivated website:

What are goitrogens and in which foods are they found?

Introduction

Goitrogens are naturally-occurring substances that can interfere with function of the thyroid gland. Goitrogens get their name from the term "goiter," which means an enlargement of the thyroid gland. If the thyroid gland is having difficulty making thyroid hormone, it may enlarge as a way of trying to compensate for this inadequate hormone production. "Goitrogens," like circumstances that cause goiter, cause difficulty for the thyroid in making its hormone.

Foods that contain goitrogens

There are two general categories of foods that have been associated with disrupted thyroid hormone production in humans: soybean-related foods and cruciferous vegetables. In addition, there are a few other foods not included in these categories - such as peaches, strawberries and millet - that also contain goitrogens. The table below shows a list of some foods that contain goitrogens.

Soybean-related foods

Included in the category of soybean-related foods are soybeans themselves as well as soy extracts, and foods made from soy, including tofu and tempeh. While soy foods share many common ingredients, it is the isoflavones in soy that have been associated with decreased thyroid hormone output. Isoflavones are naturally-occurring substances that belong to the flavonoid family of nutrients. Flavonoids, found in virtually all plants, are pigments that give plants their amazing array of colors. Most research studies in the health sciences have focused on the beneficial properties of flavonoids, and these naturally-occurring phytonutrients have repeatedly been shown to be highly health-supportive.

The link between isoflavones and decreased thyroid function is, in fact, one of the few areas in which flavonoid intake has called into question as problematic. Isoflavones like genistein appear to reduce thyroid hormone output by blocking activity of an enzyme called thyroid peroxidase. This enzyme is responsible for adding iodine onto the thyroid hormones. (Thyroid hormones must typically have three or four iodine atoms added on to their structure in order to function properly.)


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:56 am 
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You know things have gone downhill when someone starts SHOUTING IN PEOPLE'S EYEBALLS.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:06 am 
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I did read your posts carefully, and I am not in the least emotional about this issue (other than to feel a certain amount of amusement at your extreme and somewhat inappropriate SHOUTING AT MEEEE!!!! response).

Perhaps you would be willing to review the original poster's contribution and link, which most certainly was suggesting that soya affected healthy individuals in ways which include hirsuitism? I don't feel in the least defensive or emotional about soya, and I am not being "dismissive" of your health problems - my point is that I simply don't see the "soy negatives" that you are screeching about as being an area of any concern whatsoever for the overwhelming majority of us who have normal thyroid function. Of course, as others have said, if it's a food which you cannot eat because of your specific medical condition, don't eat it - but your avoidance of the food (whether it's on the advice of your naturopath as you originally stated, or your endocrinologist as you changed it to later) is no more relevant than if you had a tree nut allergy and were claiming "the modern vegan community getting defensive and emotional when any [nut] negatives are discussed".

I'm not sure I'm fully expecting a rational response here, given the timbre of previous replies, so you'll have to accept that I understand what you are saying, and politely disagree with you.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:07 am 
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zabber8 wrote:
Also, I refrained from posting articles, because you can google as well as I can, but here is an explanation...froma scientifically motivated website:

What are goitrogens and in which foods are they found?

Introduction

Goitrogens are naturally-occurring substances that can interfere with function of the thyroid gland. Goitrogens get their name from the term "goiter," which means an enlargement of the thyroid gland. If the thyroid gland is having difficulty making thyroid hormone, it may enlarge as a way of trying to compensate for this inadequate hormone production. "Goitrogens," like circumstances that cause goiter, cause difficulty for the thyroid in making its hormone.

Foods that contain goitrogens

There are two general categories of foods that have been associated with disrupted thyroid hormone production in humans: soybean-related foods and cruciferous vegetables. In addition, there are a few other foods not included in these categories - such as peaches, strawberries and millet - that also contain goitrogens. The table below shows a list of some foods that contain goitrogens.

Soybean-related foods

Included in the category of soybean-related foods are soybeans themselves as well as soy extracts, and foods made from soy, including tofu and tempeh. While soy foods share many common ingredients, it is the isoflavones in soy that have been associated with decreased thyroid hormone output. Isoflavones are naturally-occurring substances that belong to the flavonoid family of nutrients. Flavonoids, found in virtually all plants, are pigments that give plants their amazing array of colors. Most research studies in the health sciences have focused on the beneficial properties of flavonoids, and these naturally-occurring phytonutrients have repeatedly been shown to be highly health-supportive.

The link between isoflavones and decreased thyroid function is, in fact, one of the few areas in which flavonoid intake has called into question as problematic. Isoflavones like genistein appear to reduce thyroid hormone output by blocking activity of an enzyme called thyroid peroxidase. This enzyme is responsible for adding iodine onto the thyroid hormones. (Thyroid hormones must typically have three or four iodine atoms added on to their structure in order to function properly.)


Please provide the link/reference.

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We are here to discuss the gender politics of cats, not your mommy issues. - Expired Sanity


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:11 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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Actually, there are quite a few real, peer-reviewed medical studies on this topic...I can't remember which poster said there were "none", but that is incorrect. Here is one of several I found through a very quick search, done by the US Food and Drug Administration's (FDAs) Division of Biochemical Toxicology.

Consequently, the study's facts fully support what I was saying. Additionally, the study actually takes it one step further than I was ever suggesting...by concluding that soy may actually inhibit function in a regular thyroid, not necessarily only in one that is already under the pressure of disease. FYI: Inactivated TPO would indicate a non-functioning thyroid. And "geinstein" is a compound that is found in soy in rather high concentrations.

Possible Effects of Soy on Human Thyroid Health

The total genistein concentrations in rat serum (Table 1) are similar to those in humans (Table 2), suggesting a similar tissue exposure. It reasonable to conclude that human isoflavone consumption could produce isoflavone levels in the thyroid (Figure 2) sufficient to inactivate human TPO, as seen in rats.

In humans, early findings showed that goiter in infants fed soy formula was reversed upon supplementation with iodine (17). Progression to a hypothyroid state may
also be aided by biochemical impairment of hormone synthesis and metabolism, and/or
exposure to environmental goitrogens, for example, sulfonamides, glucosinolates,
cyanogenic glycosides, flavonoids (48), and persistent halogenated aromatic compounds.
Nonetheless, we should be alert to the finding that soy-induced goiter and other hypothyroid indicators have been reported in humans in the absence of evidence for iodine deficiency (24).

Soy products are heavily marketed to postmenopausal women for relief of menopausal symptoms, despite the absence of consistent clinical data demonstrating any such benefit in human trials (25). However, of concern is that this is the same subgroup in which frank hypothyroidism and a subclinical hypothyroid state (49) are most likely to occur (up to 4 and 10%, respectively) (50,51). Further, the incidence of chronic autoimmune thyroiditis, the major
risk factor for the development of hypothyroid disease in women (50), increases with age in women.

Dietary genistein causes a potent stimulation of T-cell– and B-cell–mediated immunity
in rats (36,52), an effect found with other estrogenic compounds (e.g.,p-nonylphenol, ethinylestradiol). In addition, suicide inactivation of TPO by dietary genistein in rats likely produces covalent binding of genistein to TPO. This modification could well be followed by TPO structural changes, especially in the three-dimensional shape and charge distribution. This could lead to a new antigenic form of TPO (a neoantigen) that could stimulate recognition by the immune system (53). Further support for this notion comes from the fact that anti-TPO is the
major thyroid autoantigen circulating in human serum (54). Although the etiology of thyroid autoimmunity is unknown, the multitude of genistein effects in rats suggests that soy consumption could cause or exacerbate this illness.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:13 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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Ruby Rose wrote:
I did read your posts carefully, and I am not in the least emotional about this issue (other than to feel a certain amount of amusement at your extreme and somewhat inappropriate SHOUTING AT MEEEE!!!! response).

Perhaps you would be willing to review the original poster's contribution and link, which most certainly was suggesting that soya affected healthy individuals in ways which include hirsuitism? I don't feel in the least defensive or emotional about soya, and I am not being "dismissive" of your health problems - my point is that I simply don't see the "soy negatives" that you are screeching about as being an area of any concern whatsoever for the overwhelming majority of us who have normal thyroid function. Of course, as others have said, if it's a food which you cannot eat because of your specific medical condition, don't eat it - but your avoidance of the food (whether it's on the advice of your naturopath as you originally stated, or your endocrinologist as you changed it to later) is no more relevant than if you had a tree nut allergy and were claiming "the modern vegan community getting defensive and emotional when any [nut] negatives are discussed".

I'm not sure I'm fully expecting a rational response here, given the timbre of previous replies, so you'll have to accept that I understand what you are saying, and politely disagree with you.


The peer reviewed study I just shared will be of interest regarding that statement, as it concludes from its research that soy would also be of detriment to a so called "healthy" thyroid, if excessively consumed...particularly after menopause. I did not know this until I did a bit of reading this afternoon, and assumed the issue was only with already thyroid compromised individuals. But it appears that, based on this research and more that I have perused, soy may also adversely affect a normally functioning thyroid.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:17 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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And I apologize for becoming "shill", but I was having trouble following other posters' stream of logic, which went from 1) you are saying that soy is bad for all, to, immediately, 2) stop wasting our time because this is your individual health problem and everybody has things that they are adverse to. I just couldn't understand which it was that I was being accused of, because the convo went back and forth from one to the other.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:51 am 
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Yes, it's often that way in a discussion when there are many posters who are interested in pursuing slightly different tangents of the argument at the same time. But let's all stay calm, and an interesting and fruitful exchange may emerge!

I have googled the first piece you posted - which is an opinion piece by a man named George Mateljan. I haven't heard of Mr Mateljan, but this doesn't stand in the way of him having an opinion which is worth considering. The knowledge of the importance of dietary iodine intake for healthy thyroid function is longstanding (I recall reading about an environmental study among children in India about 25 years ago or more where the high incidence of hypothyroidism was linked to low dietary iodine). My reading of the part you quoted just seems to reflect the knowledge we have from animal studies that way in which flavinoids (which are found in soya) can affect thyroid function in rats with medically-induced thyroid dysfunction is by reducing the absorption of iodine. So far so good, however, these studies don't show what level of soya consumption in humans would cause sufficiently reduced iodine absorption to affect healthy thyroid function, and what the effect of that thyroid dysfunction would be. And similarly, we know from other animal studies (including the ones referenced in your second quotation) that this effect is reversed by iodine supplimentation. Which I think Tofulish posted about on the first page.

The information which would be useful to find from peer-reviewed studies would be:
1) What level of flavinoids, and what combination of flavinoids (is it more than just genistein) affect thyroid function in healthy adult humans?
2) What level and type of flavinoids are present in soya-based foods?
3)Is there a difference between more-intensively and less-intensivley processed soya foods in the amount and types of flavinoids they contain?
4) What percentage or amount of the total daily (or other timespan) food intake would need to be soya-products to result in the accumulation or overdose of flavinoids which might affect the healthy human thyroid?
5) What level of dietary iodine is required to prevent or reverse this effect? Is this more than the normal dietary iodine resources we consume?
6) If soya consumption affects healthy thyroid function, what are the specific effects of this disruption (i.e. is it "typical" thyroid dysfunction symptoms, or are there atypical symptoms like hirsuitism?)

Any peer-reviewed studies on the above would, I think, be useful to this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:55 am 
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Zabber8,

I am going to step in here and ask you to tone it down. As far as I can see (and yes I have read the whole thread) no one is being dismissive of your health problems or your decisions on what you want to eat for your health. All people have done is ask for references for the data so that they can make up their own minds. This is hardly an unreasonable request.

Describing other people's reactions as emotional is not a great debating tactic either, please don't.

If you keep posting at the PPK (and I hope you do) please be aware that we are fans of references/citations when talking science (nutritional or otherwise).

Also, can I ask everyone else it this thread to keep it awesome, so no more pics of Cousin IT etc.

Thanks

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:05 am 
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matwinser wrote:
Zabber8,

I am going to step in here and ask you to tone it down. As far as I can see (and yes I have read the whole thread) no one is being dismissive of your health problems or your decisions on what you want to eat for your health. All people have done is ask for references for the data so that they can make up their own minds. This is hardly an unreasonable request.

Describing other people's reactions as emotional is not a great debating tactic either, please don't.

If you keep posting at the PPK (and I hope you do) please be aware that we are fans of references/citations when talking science (nutritional or otherwise).

Also, can I ask everyone else it this thread to keep it awesome, so no more pics of Cousin IT etc.

Thanks

Mat.


Thanks so much. Please note the US FDA study I shared above.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:09 am 
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Huffs Nutritional Yeast

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I am, in fact, also a huge fan of consulting science when deciding what I will eat and how. That is, in fact, precisely why I am a vegan.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:28 am 
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The Doerge and Sheehan paper that was copied and pasted from without providing a reference is actually taken into account in the Messina review I mentioned earlier (unfortunately, the full text is behind a pay wall). It's important to consider all of these statements in context rather than in isolation. For instance, the review mentions that the Ishizuki study in reference 24 in Doerge and Sheehan isn't appropriately designed. It also highlights some differences between rats and humans. Infants receiving soy formula and adults eating soy foods are also two entirely different scenarios, because serum isoflavone levels are much higher in formula-fed infants.

I will also point out that this paragraph was omitted from the above quote:

Doerge & Sheehan wrote:
The failure to find hypothyroidism caused by genistein in rats, despite extensive inactivation of TPO (35), or by mixed isoflavone consumption (47) points to additional risk factor(s) necessary to induce hypothyroidism. In particular, iodine deficiency is necessary for soy to cause antithyroid effects in rats. Although the mechanism of this iodide effect is unknown, a significant literature supports this concept (10,14, 46,47).


Let me highlight the key passages in the abstract I was referring to, as the purpose of my posting it doesn't seem to have been sufficiently clear:

Thyroid. 2006 Mar;16(3):249-58.
Quote:
Soy foods are a traditional staple of Asian diets but because of their purported health benefits they have become popular in recent years among non-Asians, especially postmenopausal women. There are many bioactive soybean components that may contribute to the hypothesized health benefits of soy but most attention has focused on the isoflavones, which have both hormonal and nonhormonal properties. However, despite the possible benefits concerns have been expressed that soy may be contraindicated for some subsets of the population. One concern is that soy may adversely affect thyroid function and interfere with the absorption of synthetic thyroid hormone. Thus, the purpose of this review is to evaluate the relevant literature and provide the clinician guidance for advising their patients about the effects of soy on thyroid function. In total, 14 trials (thyroid function was not the primary health outcome in any trial) were identified in which the effects of soy foods or isoflavones on at least one measure of thyroid function was assessed in presumably healthy subjects; eight involved women only, four involved men, and two both men and women. With only one exception, either no effects or only very modest changes were noted in these trials. Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function. In contrast, some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients. However, hypothyroid adults need not avoid soy foods. In addition, there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate.


This is at odds with the blanket statement that soy strongly affects the thyroid. Whether it may in very specific cases is a different matter, but it's an important distinction to make.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:36 am 
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Thanks, Chippie. When there's time, someone here should probably do a good search for anything post 2006 - not that that's going to change the opinions of anyone with a strong faith-based perspective of the safety of soya consumption.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:34 am 
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zabber8 wrote:
matwinser wrote:
Zabber8,

I am going to step in here and ask you to tone it down. As far as I can see (and yes I have read the whole thread) no one is being dismissive of your health problems or your decisions on what you want to eat for your health. All people have done is ask for references for the data so that they can make up their own minds. This is hardly an unreasonable request.

Describing other people's reactions as emotional is not a great debating tactic either, please don't.

If you keep posting at the PPK (and I hope you do) please be aware that we are fans of references/citations when talking science (nutritional or otherwise).

Also, can I ask everyone else it this thread to keep it awesome, so no more pics of Cousin IT etc.

Thanks

Mat.


Thanks so much. Please note the US FDA study I shared above.


I did see that and at the risk of being considered a pedant (which is fine, I am) a quote from a study is not a reference/citation.

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:44 am 
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First, it was insisted during the course of this conversation that (an acceptable level of) scientific study on this issue just did not exist. Then, when I found one, among several I saw, and mentioned it here, it just wasn't good enough to pass muster of the forum's junior detectives. This place sure does give me a chuckle.


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:52 am 
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Perhaps it might wipe the smile off your face if you went back and looked again at what other posters have written. As Chipmunk pointed out in great detail - even bolding the text to make it easy for you to read - the selected piece of text you quoted from came from a study where they clearly and specifically ruled out soya damaging healthy thyroid function. As I wrote, if you can find some evidence in the areas which would be helpful to the discussion rather than making leaps in inferencing from opinion pieces, I for one would be interested in reading them. No need for sarcasm, thanks.

And if you're struggling to fully get what kind of information is being asked for here, can I recommend reading Bad Science by Dr Ben Goldacre, which is a very accessible book introducing evidence levels.

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We are here to discuss the gender politics of cats, not your mommy issues. - Expired Sanity


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:53 am 
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Ok,

Believe it or not, I am trying to be nice here.

Firstly, you have said that scientific studies exist to back up what you are saying and have been asked to reference them. I don't understand what is unreasonable about that or why that seems to be annoying you.

Secondly, snark wins no arguments. Please drop the attitude.

Thanks

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:04 am 
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zabber8 wrote:
her thyroid's absorption of soy


Her what now?

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Cake is always the appropriate intervention. - choirqueer
We are here to discuss the gender politics of cats, not your mommy issues. - Expired Sanity


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 Post subject: Re: HALP for a still-in-pre-production soy-free cookbook
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:09 am 
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Right, I am locking this. I don't think it is helping anyone and it is far far from the OP's post.

I will let the OP know it is ok to start a new thread.

Mat.

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