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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:50 am 
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jojo wrote:
paprikapapaya wrote:
andi_vert wrote:
Arrr, Giovanni products -even those for damaged hair- made my hair really really dry and shitty. Glad they work for some of you!


Yup, my hair is like hay with it. The products are way too light!


My hair's super fine and gets greasy really fast. Maybe it works best for that type of hair?


That could very well be it because my hair is the same way the diameter of my ponytail is probably around .75 cm, tops.

I've been using the Urban Decay Urban Defense tinted moisturizer, but it has to go on in such a thin layer to not look cakey that I assume it doesn't do crepe for sunscreen purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:15 am 
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lepelaar wrote:
Both Aveda and Estee Lauder have been removed from this safe list from the Dutch anti-testing organization Proefdiervrij. They were both still on there when I checked a few days ago.

I'm still torn about which way to go. On the one hand, I don't want my money going towards a parent company that does animal testing. On the other, I think supporting a good company can have an influence on policies that a parent company makes. When The Body Shop was taken over by L'Oreal, there were some people who argued that they could work from within to change the testing policies of the larger company. Maybe that's a little pie-in-the-sky, though. I don't know.

I'm afraid that if I give Aveda/EL a pass on this issue, I'll be doing it for self-serving reasons. It took me years to find a product that keeps my hair from turning into a haystack, and their Be Curly line is the only thing that does the job. I've been trying Lush's R&B for the last couple of weeks and my hair is a mess. Went back to the Be Curly for one day and the difference is clear. :(

I feel you. I'm going to try looking for alternatives, even though it SUCKS and would be much, much easier if I just stuck with Origins. I don't know. This whole thing makes me think of that horrific giant chart of all these products and their horrible parent companies. http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/images/howard-OrganicTop25Nov06.jpg I think twice about buying some of these brands, but I don't avoid them altogether. So does that make me a hypocrite? I really can't say.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:29 am 
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alice1drland wrote:
I feel you. I'm going to try looking for alternatives, even though it SUCKS and would be much, much easier if I just stuck with Origins. I don't know. This whole thing makes me think of that horrific giant chart of all these products and their horrible parent companies. http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/services/images/howard-OrganicTop25Nov06.jpg I think twice about buying some of these brands, but I don't avoid them altogether. So does that make me a hypocrite? I really can't say.

I'll be living in the woods now, if any of you guys need me!


Honestly, I do the best I can. I try to find cruelty free as much as possible, but I know there are always things I'm screwing up on or forget to check. Then there's medications and other hygiene related items that I have little choice on. Looking at the organic brand charts is always depressing.

In the end, I try to do the absolute best I can, on as many products as I can. I don't feel like it makes me hypocritical. I also don't know how I feel about the whole Estee Lauder debacle...it goes back to the questions caring consumers have debated for years; is it better to support child (?) companies who don't test and are vegan, since that at least sends the message those products are in demand? Or is it best to not give any $$ to the big parent company? In the end, I think it all comes back to personal choice. I don't think anyone who sticks with these companies is being a selfish asparagus, but I also don't think that taking business elsewhere is overreacting. Me? I'm just glad I'm too poor for Origins and Aveda! Dilemma solved!


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:11 am 
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baps wrote:
Dang I had no idea simple were owned by unilever!!! Bollocks.


I can't believe they don't even have it written on the Corporate Info page of the UK Simple website. Sneaky mustards.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:03 pm 
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jojo wrote:
baps wrote:
Dang I had no idea simple were owned by unilever!!! Bollocks.


I can't believe they don't even have it written on the Corporate Info page of the UK Simple website. Sneaky mustards.

Yes! Because I use their eye make up remover (and make up wipes occasionally) and I checked their website and everything to be sure they weren't owned by someone who tests. dammit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:04 pm 
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For people looking for new skincare stuff to replace Origins, I've really been loving Mario Badescu's stuff lately. It's not all vegan, but a lot of it is and the ingredient lists are short so it's easy to figure out what is or isn't vegan.

And I'm going to repeat my recommendation for Paul Mitchell for people trying to replace Aveda haircare. It's good stuff and a good company to support. http://origin.www.peta.org/living/beaut ... chell.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:32 am 
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Thanks for the tip, jessilikewhoa. I've located some Paul Mitchell salons here and will go take a look.

On the plus side, while trying to figure out what make up companies I could use to replace my MAC stuff, I discovered that Sephora is now open in NL, and the one I can get to easiest (about 1/2 hour on pub trans) is selling the whole Urban Decay line! I keep reading about UD and assumed it wasn't available here, so WHOOHOO!!! (Hoping they also carry Demeter fragrances, because I've been dying to get some ever since sniffing them in Chicago.)

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:06 pm 
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This annoyed me so much, the moisturisers that I currently use are Clarins and Origins, both owned by EL and most of my makeup is by MAC also owned by EL. I can't really justify throwing out what I already own by them, because that would be a waste of a few hundred pounds and wouldn't really serve a purpose other than costing me more money having to replace all the products, but I doubt that I'll buy from those brands in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:54 am 
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I keep thinking about this, because there's this nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that there are probably a lot of companies that are on cruelty free lists the way all the EL brands were or Avon and Mary Kay were, who are currently selling in China. I only googled a few (Chanel, Dior, and Revlon who also own Mitchum, Almay, and Sinful Colors) putting the company name plus China, and all of those companies appear to sell in China. I didn't check smaller companies like Urban Decay or Too Faced or Tarte, so maybe they're safe. But this whole China thing sucks so much. Like so so soooo much.

I'm just really torn by the whole thing. If everyone ends up selling in China and having to follow this stupid policy what then? I can't use the indie makeup brands because mineral makeup breaks me out and irritates my eyes.

GAH just. Stupid stupid Chinese government.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:20 am 
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jessilikewhoa wrote:
I keep thinking about this, because there's this nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that there are probably a lot of companies that are on cruelty free lists the way all the EL brands were or Avon and Mary Kay were, who are currently selling in China.

I've been thinking about that, too. And also what, if anything, the EU ban will mean for me as a European consumer. I also wonder if the weird thing with Simple has to do with their American distribitor being Unilever, because the parent company is given as something else on the British website. I don't see why you would throw out what you already have (it was vegan when you bought it after all), but as for buying new ones... I'm still not sure. There's too much conflicting information when you look for crueltyfree and vegan products. Latest frustration: label says 100% vegetable, 2nd ingredient is beeswax. Gah!


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:15 am 
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jessilikewhoa wrote:
I keep thinking about this, because there's this nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that there are probably a lot of companies that are on cruelty free lists the way all the EL brands were or Avon and Mary Kay were, who are currently selling in China. I only googled a few (Chanel, Dior, and Revlon who also own Mitchum, Almay, and Sinful Colors) putting the company name plus China, and all of those companies appear to sell in China. I didn't check smaller companies like Urban Decay or Too Faced or Tarte, so maybe they're safe. But this whole China thing sucks so much. Like so so soooo much.

I'm just really torn by the whole thing. If everyone ends up selling in China and having to follow this stupid policy what then? I can't use the indie makeup brands because mineral makeup breaks me out and irritates my eyes.

GAH just. Stupid stupid Chinese government.

Yep. I'm closing my eyes and crossing my fingers that companies like Urban, Too Faced, Tarte and Lush are all safe. Those are the companies I'm trying to stick to, but I don't know if I'm just deluding myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:39 pm 
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I'm doing the same thing, but I use some drugstore stuff too, like my concealers and foundation are all Almay stuff that looked to be vegan from reading the ingredients. I can't afford to only buy HE or boutique brands. I'll be having this internal debate for a looooong time I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:49 pm 
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alice1drland wrote:
Yep. I'm closing my eyes and crossing my fingers that companies like Urban, Too Faced, Tarte and Lush are all safe. Those are the companies I'm trying to stick to, but I don't know if I'm just deluding myself.


Lush is safe (and does not trade in China yet). They will never animal test.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:02 pm 
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cornflowers wrote:
alice1drland wrote:
Yep. I'm closing my eyes and crossing my fingers that companies like Urban, Too Faced, Tarte and Lush are all safe. Those are the companies I'm trying to stick to, but I don't know if I'm just deluding myself.


Lush is safe (and does not trade in China yet). They will never animal test.


I know Lush is sold in Hong Kong. Does that count?


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:14 am 
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I found this on Lush's site, so I'm guessing that the animal testing law doesn't cover Hong Kong, but I can't say 100% for sure.
http://www.lush.com/pfj/partnerships/china.html

I've previously read that Japan requires testing as well (why I don't buy Nars as they're owned by Shiseido who are based in Japan) but I can't find a list anywhere of what countries require animal testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:31 am 
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That is what is confusing: almost of of the major international brands have sold in China for years, and that includes the Estée Lauder brands. So e of the articles talk about "expanding in China." that phrase has a few meanings, so it isn't very helpful.

I haven't been able to find information on this. I wonder if it is a matter of import quantities or how the products are distributed. As far as Chanel goes, I know that their Asia distribution includes Australia. Russia seems split between Asian and Europe colors and products. Their Asia launches are always in Japan (as far as color exclusives anyway).

A quick Google search just now brought up all sorts of references to Bobbi Brown (a supposedly non testing EL ownedcompany) being sold in China since at least 2009/2010.

Someone needs to do a proper investigative treatment on this issue, if all of these dozens of companies have been lying about this for years, especially the ones crowing about leading the no test charge in the EU, that would be a pretty enormous scandal.

ETA: I've always understood that the Japan testing laws apply to Japan asked companies, and not all of the products imported into Japan. Most of the listed-as-not testing brands are available in Japan.

I always wondered if vegetarian Kristin Bauer I can't remember her full. Are for. true Blood realized that she singlehandedly caused a rush on Nars lip pencils when Pam used it on the show.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:54 pm 
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jessilikewhoa wrote:
I found this on Lush's site, so I'm guessing that the animal testing law doesn't cover Hong Kong, but I can't say 100% for sure.
http://www.lush.com/pfj/partnerships/china.html

I've previously read that Japan requires testing as well (why I don't buy Nars as they're owned by Shiseido who are based in Japan) but I can't find a list anywhere of what countries require animal testing.


Hong Kong has an independent judiciary system and (as I understand it, anyhow), has an autonomous government aside for military/defense laws. I would also guess that it's not obligated to China's animal testing law (of course, Wikipedia does not make me an expert).

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:53 pm 
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vegan beauty blog logical harmony has an update on this whole estée lauder scandal:
http://www.logicalharmony.net/an-update ... z1qvM4Nkj0

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:07 pm 
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jessilikewhoa wrote:
I'm doing the same thing, but I use some drugstore stuff too, like my concealers and foundation are all Almay stuff that looked to be vegan from reading the ingredients.


may i ask which almay products you use? my mineral makeup isn't cutting it for me anymore, and my e.l.f. makeup isn't super-good at covering my dark undereye circles. thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:50 pm 
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I use the Nearly Naked foundation in Ivory, I mix a nickel sized dollop of it with a pea sized squirt of Too Faced BB Cream in Vanilla Glow and OCC Tint in R0, and I get a mix that evens out and matches my very pale pink toned skin. I use the Almay stuff to form the bulk of the mix so I can conserve the more expensive stuff, plus it's this really neutral almost grey toned color so it makes a nice base. It comes in a really stupid glass bottle with no pump though, so I transferred it into a cheap plastic pump bottle I ordered from Muji.

For concealer I use the Smart Shade anti-aging concealer in Light under my eyes, it's thick but it doesn't settle into lines. I use the Clear Complexion concealer in Light for pimples, it's a bit too yellow for my skin, but I keep using it because I like that it's medicated (salicylic acid).

Like I said, I read the ingredients and they seemed vegan, there is non-specified glycerin and lecithin though that you might want to email them about. From my research it seems like the majority of glycerin in cosmetics now is veg sourced, and the majority of lecithin in everything tends to be from soy, so I didn't bother checking.

You have to be careful with Almay because they're owned by Revlon which means they put unneeded silk in a bunch of their products (seriously, what the fizzle Revlon, take out the damn silk!) but it wasn't in any of these products.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:53 pm 
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That website says that Aveda now tests and quotes their FAQ page as saying "where required by law," but Incant find that language on the Aveda site. They still say they never have and never will test.

Is it under the more info link that isn't iPad clickable? They have a banner that says "the end of animal testing." if they are hiding more under that, it is really super slimy.

Whoops! Link would be helpful. http://www.aveda.com/discover/index.tmp ... the_change

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:36 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
That website says that Aveda now tests and quotes their FAQ page as saying "where required by law," but Incant find that language on the Aveda site. They still say they never have and never will test.

Is it under the more info link that isn't iPad clickable? They have a banner that says "the end of animal testing." if they are hiding more under that, it is really super slimy.

Whoops! Link would be helpful. http://www.aveda.com/discover/index.tmp ... the_change

Should be accessible by iPad:
http://www.aveda.com/cms/customer_service/faq.tmpl#faq2

The FAQ answer at the top of the page says "where required by law," and I remember it saying so prior to this whole thing. I was just blissfully ignorant of the context until this story broke. I'm sure they're trying to make the more visible part of their website imply that they would never, EVER test on animals (in Americaaaa wheeee).


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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:39 pm 
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thanks, jesslikewhoa! i'm über-pale and can't afford high-end makeup. i'll have to look into almay. and yeah, what the fork, revlon? they put silk in evvvverything. i've heard such great things about colorstay, but again, the stupid silk. urgh.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:42 pm 
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(I left off the VegNews and PETA awards because I don't give a shiitake what either organization thinks.)
Quote:
In order to be beauty, it must also be good. Beauty is the result, but also the process.”
—dominique conseil, aveda president

Our stance on animal welfare is one of our founding principles: we don't conduct animal testing, and don't ask others to do it for us, unless the law requires it. We're continually developing new products, but our safety testing relies on human volunteers and scientific databases.

where we stand

Aveda is working toward the end of animal testing—without exception. In 1989, we were the first privately held company to sign the Ceres Principles for corporate responsibility, which call for safeguarding of the Earth and "its inhabitants." One of our most prized accolades is our 2004 PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) Proggy Award for Progress: "Best Cruelty-Free Personal Care Products."
The sad reality is that most ingredients have been tested on animals at some point, and new international regulations both support and challenge efforts to protect them. But we see an opportunity: along with advocacy groups and the global scientific community, we can work to develop more animal-free, in vitro (i.e. test tube) alternatives, to replace unnecessary in vivo tests (on living things).


where animals stand with us

Our commitment to being animal-friendly goes well beyond the confines of the lab; we live and breathe it. Just a few examples:

Our Blaine, Minnesota manufacturing plant is certified as a wildlife habit by the National Wildlife Federation, thanks to our restoration efforts. In fact, at Aveda's request, we worked with NWF to create “drive with care” signs that would help protect wildlife on our campus as well as other locations around the country.
We have an ongoing relationship with Audubon Minnesota to enhance the nesting habitat on the grounds of our Blaine, Minnesota headquarters. This has included construction of a chimney swift house, a purple martin house, wood duck nesting boxes, and bluebird houses. We have also been working with Audubon on the issue of bird-building collisions.
We have supported Audubon's Upper Mississippi River Initiative through our the Aveda Earth Month program since 2007 with funding directed towards water quality work that helps protect and enhance river habitat for birds and other wildlife.
We have supported animal relief, donating to the Animal Humane Society in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and to the National Wildlife Federation after the Gulf Oil Disaster.
Over the past decade, our network has raised over $8 million for grassroots organizations that help protect endangered plants and their environs, including the animals therein.
We support the Endangered Species Act and in 2006, we sent more than 500,000 signatures—from our network and guests—to the United Nations and the White House to support it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad news about Estee Lauder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:48 pm 
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So, in other words, they are bscuring this new testing with a bunch of crepe and a wall of text. What slime balls.

My mom is really upset about this because she has a large gift certificate to use up from Christmas.

Thanks for the help.

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