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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:57 pm 
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I don't know. When I read some of the things said in this thread I think it must be pretty hard to be a parent and read that and not want to jump in to defend yourself. Not everything, obviously, but the few things - like the comment esme addressed and the things that are like having a baby is selfish. Or say..if someone is saying they don't want to have a baby because it takes over your life and all of a sudden MOTHER is just your identity and like...what if there's a mother out there who doesn't live her life that way and she wants to interject something about that experience but feels she can't because she's not childless.

I don't know, I think about my mom too much.

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Last edited by Fee on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 pm 
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Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just think it'd be a very uncomfortable ordeal, and the physicality of childbirth and pregnancy is one of the reasons why I think it's not for me. I mean, your body goes through so many changes. I know some people have good feelings about it, but I don't know that the good hormones would make up for the bad hormones, and then I'd have to face going off anti-depressants (or not, but then if something did happen to the kid I would blame myself). I still haven't been able to watch an actual birth happen; it just seems traumatic to me. Mothers usually say it's worth it, I know, I've been told a number of times, but for someone on the fence, it certainly keeps me there.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I'm still happy the thread is here; it's nice to hear what other people think about all the issues involved with wanting to not be a mom. (The companion thread in the Living Room is also really interesting.) I'd also be sad to see it go. The conversation has mostly been on topic, and mostly been respectful. For an internet thread in which dozens of people have participated, that's pretty good.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Fee wrote:
I don't know. When I read some of the things said in this thread I think it must be pretty hard to be a parent and read that and not want to jump in to defend yourself. Not everything, obviously, but the few things - like the comment esme addressed and the things that are like having a baby is selfish. Or say..if someone is saying they don't want to have a baby because it takes over your life and all of a sudden MOTHER is just your identity and like...what if there's a mother out there who doesn't live her life that way and she wants to interject something about that experience but feels she can't because she's not childless.

I don't know, I think about my mom too much.


That makes sense, Fee. i think some people have jumped in to share stuff like that without sounding like they are offended. I guess I just meant that if it seems like it's going to be very offensive to you, maybe don't read it? Kind of like not reading the comments on articles about vegan diets.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:06 pm 
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As a parent, I don't agree with a lot of what's said in this thread and it doesn't matter because I don't have to agree! I make my choices for myself and I hope everyone else does too. I hope this thread can survive because the playground has been really helpful to me and I think it's just as important for non parents to have a place to discuss their choices and feelings.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:13 pm 
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JillW wrote:
I've been married around 7 years and my partner is possibly even more adamant than me about not having kids. Even so, neither he nor I have seriously investigated permanent birth control. We talked about it a little bit some time back, but he was resistant to surgery and I don't want to pressure him nor have surgery myself. Therefore, believe it or not, we use condoms as our sole method of birth control! Maybe it's not so rare, but it seems funny to be a middle aged married person and still using condoms. There it is.


You are not alone! Mr Q and I are very similar to you!! Except we aren't married and have been together for way longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:21 pm 
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I missed la vie sale's comment but reading it, I'd probably interpret it with my own spin including the fact that women seem pressured into having kids by society in general as we've established in this thread. To be able to go against expectations that you may receive since a child is really difficult. Some women may have kids because it is what they think women do, I know I felt that way when I was younger. To realize that isn't the path for me and realize that I can get away from societal norms makes me feel liberated.

I also have no interest in physically having a baby and yes, I don't want to carry a baby or push a baby out which is why if we ever had kids, adoption ranks higher. I don't know how it is misogynist to say you don't want to give birth.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Fee wrote:
I don't know. When I read some of the things said in this thread I think it must be pretty hard to be a parent and read that and not want to jump in to defend yourself. Not everything, obviously, but the few things - like the comment esme addressed and the things that are like having a baby is selfish. Or say..if someone is saying they don't want to have a baby because it takes over your life and all of a sudden MOTHER is just your identity and like...what if there's a mother out there who doesn't live her life that way and she wants to interject something about that experience but feels she can't because she's not childless.

I don't know, I think about my mom too much.


Thanks, Fee. That's pretty much it.

I've been reading this thread since the beginning, and I keep reading it for the same reason I started: because the vast majority of my friends IRL are child free and I think it's really important to keep hearing about what issues are important for CF people, things not to do if you don't want to be a dbag etc. "Just stop reading" isn't really a good solution, unless you WANT your parent friends to continue not understanding why it makes you annoyed that they talk about how "rich" you must be and etc.

Child free issues can be discussed without generalizations and insults towards parents. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:27 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
Child free issues can be discussed without generalizations and insults towards parents. Right?


Totally right.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:29 pm 
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that's a good point, C&S. I felt kind of bad for saying just don't read it right after I posted. It would definitely be cool if this could be a thread where people could learn more about different viewpoints on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:35 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
that's a good point, C&S. I felt kind of bad for saying just don't read it right after I posted. It would definitely be cool if this could be a thread where people could learn more about different viewpoints on the subject.


PS, this is why i shouldn't post in this thread. because i sort of agree with everything everyone says.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:36 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I also have no interest in physically having a baby and yes, I don't want to carry a baby or push a baby out which is why if we ever had kids, adoption ranks higher. I don't know how it is misogynist to say you don't want to give birth.


Jigglypuff didn't say it was misogynistic to say that, I agree that it's just entirely inappropriate to comment on someone else's vagina.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:36 pm 
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Invictus wrote:
Okay, this is what I posted earlier.

I think one of my pet peeves is the phrase "Being a mother is the hardest job on Earth." I hear it at work all the time, especially when we're about to deploy or just got back, I assume to placate the families. And you know what? No. No it isn't. People in your audience just put their lives at risk every day for months on end, made impossible decisions with inadequate information, displayed moral and physical courage. Not everyone every day. But enough people on enough days. And that's just one career field. How about people teaching in underfunded schools, or firefighters, or counselors, or a million other valuable and intently difficult career fields? It gets my goat, and that ain't vegan.


I didn't really intend to read this thread because as a mom, it doesn't really apply to me. But I got bored and curious. For the record, I am a stay at home mom. Well, technically a work at home mom since I have a part time job I do from home. I am also a mom of a kid with special needs, which people really like to say is the hardest job in the world. And it is from that perspective that I just want to give your comment a standing ovation. I find it patronizing when people say things like that. It's not the hardest job on Earth. It's not even close. It's not even the hardest job I've ever had, and I've had some cushy jobs. When people say it, it feels like they are trying to placate me and it just feels gross.

So with that, I will go read my 3 year old a book that has one syllable words in it. Oh god, why me? It's so hard!


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:45 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
PS, this is why i shouldn't post in this thread. because i sort of agree with everything everyone says.



That's also why I stopped commenting and started listening (more).

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:06 pm 
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thanks fee, you really articulated what i've been feeling about this thread. i didn't want to post in it, because i have kids but reading some of the stuff posted (which has ranged from a couple very insulting, to mostly fairly innocuous and thoughtful comments) made me feel the same way i do when i read about people not wanting to be vegan... when you hear people making comments that come across as the equivalent of "i could never be vegan because CHEESE!" it's hard to resist trying to debate that. not that i think having kids is like being vegan, but it is hard to not take it personally.

i think the title and first post made it very clear what kind of thread was intended, and i do regret that it was taken off topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:07 pm 
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I am really, truly sorry. I just can't imagine putting your body through that. Michelle Duggar has said that she likes being pregnant though or whatever, so good for her? I don't know. I just feel horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:12 pm 
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I don't follow. What are you sorry about ndpittman?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:14 pm 
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for talking about m duggar's vagina.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Ah! Thanks for the clarification littlebird.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Are any of you part of an organized childfree group? Someone I met once is starting one and we have our first meeting (a potluck) in a couple weeks. As far as I know, the purpose of the group is just to meet new friends who don't have kids.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Kelly wrote:
As a parent, I don't agree with a lot of what's said in this thread and it doesn't matter because I don't have to agree! I make my choices for myself and I hope everyone else does too. I hope this thread can survive because the playground has been really helpful to me and I think it's just as important for non parents to have a place to discuss their choices and feelings.


Thanks, Kelly. This makes a lot of sense. I read the Playground sometimes, but I don't jump in to offer alternatives or my perspective, because that space is specifically set up to discuss issues around parenthood/raising children, and that is a very important thing to have as part of this community. So if this one thread is for people to discuss the choice not to have kids, and/or what it feels like not to have kids, why are so many people with kids finding offense? I appreciate Kelly's post, above. Obviously every one should feel free to read this and any other thread, and to comment on it. But why would parents come here to defend parenting? No one is going to the Playground defending not having kids. Of course some of the things said here aren't true from a parent perspective, but they are very real to the people sharing their experiences here who do not have kids. What a lot of people here are trying to express is how it feels to live in a world where parenthood is the norm, and where to not have children feels like making an against the grain choice that is constantly criticized. I feel like people should be able to vent about that, express that, and of course we should all strive to do so with care. People will fumble along the way, but it's an important conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:30 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
Kelly wrote:
As a parent, I don't agree with a lot of what's said in this thread and it doesn't matter because I don't have to agree! I make my choices for myself and I hope everyone else does too. I hope this thread can survive because the playground has been really helpful to me and I think it's just as important for non parents to have a place to discuss their choices and feelings.


Thanks, Kelly. This makes a lot of sense. I read the Playground sometimes, but I don't jump in to offer alternatives or my perspective, because that space is specifically set up to discuss issues around parenthood/raising children, and that is a very important thing to have as part of this community. So if this one thread is for people to discuss the choice not to have kids, and/or what it feels like not to have kids, why are so many people with kids finding offense? I appreciate Kelly's post, above. Obviously every one should feel free to read this and any other thread, and to comment on it. But why would parents come here to defend parenting? No one is going to the Playground defending not having kids. Of course some of the things said here aren't true from a parent perspective, but they are very real to the people sharing their experiences here who do not have kids. What a lot of people here are trying to express is how it feels to live in a world where parenthood is the norm, and where to not have children feels like making an against the grain choice that is constantly criticized. I feel like people should be able to vent about that, express that, and of course we should all strive to do so with care. People will fumble along the way, but it's an important conversation.


This. While I recognize certain things do need to be called out if they're troublesome, I think MJ has a very valid point.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:01 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
No one is going to the Playground defending not having kids.


But parents in the Playground don't say anything about being childfree. I mean, I read it...99% of the time I don't post because it doesn't apply to me. Like the gluten free threads or the gardening threads. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't say something if I found something I read was either wrong or offensive.

I agree with what moooo was saying about parent privilege. And I think when a thread is about any sort of minority group and you're in the majority you should probably checkity check your privilege at door before you comment, but it doesn't mean that you have nothing valuable to add or that you're not allowed to challenge anything said within the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:23 pm 
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i think it's also really dependent on your perspective as to whether parents can be considered a "majority" or not. i mean, yeah, people have kids, because otherwise the human race would die out. but i think it's problematic to put all parents in one category, as though we were some kind of cohesive body.

i would bet that people with children are actually a minority on this forum, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:34 pm 
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But I'm talking about in society in general, which is what a lot of what this thread is about. How we're treated as childfree women today.

Obviously we have a large number of vegans here, but that doesn't stop anyone from looking at me side-eyed when I tell people I'm vegan IRL. It's actually very similar to the look I get when I tell them I'm not ever having kids.

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