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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:46 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
Tigon wrote:
Fantasy is a difficult genre to write powerful women into, due to the worlds defined by brute strength. I think Martin does a good job at writing believable strong female characters.

What what? It's fantasy! You can write any damn thing you want, including powerful women who can kick asparagus with arms made of CorTen steel. Writers don't get a pass for promoting the same old sexist tropes because a powerful woman is apparently just too fantastical.


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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:48 am 
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To point out the obvious, not all fantasy is about "worlds defined by brute strength". In fact, I would say a huge amount of it isn't at all! Look at all the books about magical worlds, just as one example.

As an aside, on "strong women" (a phrase I dislike for a number of reasons) in fantasy, I suggest checking out Dangerous Women, a collection of short stories edited by GRRM and Gardner Dozois.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:59 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:33 am 
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Quote:
The violence (rape is certainly violence) on the show isn't there to turn people on. It is a story that takes place in a harsh world where these are their realities. Unfortunately it's still a reality in many parts of our world today. But yeah, HBO has changed some things to add nudity and other strange events that they think works for ratings. I really enjoy the show, though certainly not because of the hard to watch violence. Fantasy is a difficult genre to write powerful women into, due to the worlds defined by brute strength. I think Martin does a good job at writing believable strong female characters.


I havent read the books yet, I am still curious though, because I have read that the books still make it clear that while rape is a common thing in that fantasy world (as it is in the real world) it's not a good thing, but a brutal, horrifying thing. In the series, at least the first season that I did watch, it did not feel like this at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:06 pm 
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monkeytoes wrote:
I was just watching an episode of Monsters Inside Me


I have no idea what this show is but I am guessing it is something that would feature scabies. There was a scabies outbreak this week at the large (adults) hospital here. I am not obsessing on it and I am not a complete germaphobe but it keeps popping into my head even though there was none reported at the children's hospital (where I take my son) and I know there are a lot worse things you can catch at the hospital, still SCABIES. Little bugs making tunnels thorough your skin.


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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:58 pm 
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Tigon wrote:
VeganinBerlin wrote:
Someone on the ppk, not sure who, said/implied that all the "sexy rape" on this show was ok because it does turn a lot of people on.

Wow. It's hard to imagine someone saying that.

Well that's because (if it it was the thread I'm thinking of) it wasn't said like that. It was probably me that VeganinBerlin was referring to, because there were comments in the thread that felt shaming to me, it was getting into a 'how could you possibly like to watch that?!' Kind of game, and that wasn't cool with me. The rape that the show depicts is in fact 100% fabricated and consensual on part of the actors. Comparing it to pedophilia is not accurate because there is no way to consensually fabricate sex with a child. But if someone does experience pedophilic fantasies, it doesn't mean they are a bad person. As long as they never act on it. And in fact it is very common for people to enjoy 'age play' in which thier consensual, adult parter acts as if they were either very young, or very old, or any combination thereof.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Not that I don't wish the show would show a stronger feminist perspective, or was at least harder for a young audience to stumble across.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Mars wrote:
The rape that the show depicts is in fact 100% fabricated and consensual on part of the actors..

I've stopped watching several shows because of this. I can see your side of it, but for me I don't think it's something that needs to be shown to audiences, and that's where I draw a pretty hard line. it'd be different if it were implied or hinted at, but often it's quite graphic/confronting. bummer.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:32 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
Tigon wrote:
Fantasy is a difficult genre to write powerful women into, due to the worlds defined by brute strength. I think Martin does a good job at writing believable strong female characters.

What what? It's fantasy! You can write any damn thing you want, including powerful women who can kick asparagus with arms made of CorTen steel. Writers don't get a pass for promoting the same old sexist tropes because a powerful woman is apparently just too fantastical.


+ a million! If you're making up a fictional world with fictional characters, a woman could be all kinds of bad asparagus and have as much brute strength as anyone else.


I also get really irked by people using history as an excuse for sexism in fantasy. like, "these women orcs have to stay home and cook and can't go out and fight. that's how things were back then!" back when? when they were really orcs???

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:34 pm 
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Arisaig wrote:
monkeytoes wrote:
I was just watching an episode of Monsters Inside Me


I have no idea what this show is but I am guessing it is something that would feature scabies. There was a scabies outbreak this week at the large (adults) hospital here. I am not obsessing on it and I am not a complete germaphobe but it keeps popping into my head even though there was none reported at the children's hospital (where I take my son) and I know there are a lot worse things you can catch at the hospital, still SCABIES. Little bugs making tunnels thorough your skin.

Scabies is probably far too tame for this show! Seriously, there are some truly horrifying parasites out there. But yeah, my ex's brother brought home scabies from work once and their whole household got the itchies. No fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:10 pm 
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joshua wrote:
Mars wrote:
The rape that the show depicts is in fact 100% fabricated and consensual on part of the actors..

I've stopped watching several shows because of this. I can see your side of it, but for me I don't think it's something that needs to be shown to audiences, and that's where I draw a pretty hard line. it'd be different if it were implied or hinted at, but often it's quite graphic/confronting. bummer.


Yeah. The actors may have consented to participate in the scene (though I don't know, did they? Were they given the option to say no without the risk of losing their jobs?) but the audience certainly did not give informed consent to watch it. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to depict sexual violence in a movie, but I think it is relevant to consider what the purpose of doing so is, and the impact it has on the actors and audience, and I do think that in many cases the harm outweighs the artistic/entertainment value.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Yes, indeed. I was defending my stance against shaming various sexual perversions, not saying that I don't think the show is problematic. I've actually hardly watched any of this show at all really. Half at most.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:01 pm 
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I am WAY too amused by pretending for a few minutes that I am not a mostly fluent reader of middle english:
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Sum men clepen it the well of [y]outhe for [th]ei [th]at often drynken [th]ere of semen allweys . . . lyuen withouten sykeness

It's been a long day, okay?

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:26 am 
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Mars wrote:
Comparing it to pedophilia is not accurate because there is no way to consensually fabricate sex with a child. But if someone does experience pedophilic fantasies, it doesn't mean they are a bad person. As long as they never act on it.


I guess I do not think that computer-generated pedophilic porn (or porn that otherwise depicts pedophilic porn without actually using children as actors) is non-problematic either. I am not shaming people with pedophilic urges or rape fantasies, but that doesn't mean I think watching pedophilic or rape porn is unproblematic.


Quote:
Yeah. The actors may have consented to participate in the scene (though I don't know, did they? Were they given the option to say no without the risk of losing their jobs?) but the audience certainly did not give informed consent to watch it. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to depict sexual violence in a movie, but I think it is relevant to consider what the purpose of doing so is, and the impact it has on the actors and audience, and I do think that in many cases the harm outweighs the artistic/entertainment value.

I was just watching a (very good!) german movie in the theatre and I had read several positive reviews about it. And every one failed to mention that one of the main plot twists is the rape of all the girls in the town. They didn't show it explicitly, thankfully, but it was so strange to me that no reviewer cared to mention that it all. It's still a good movie but still..

Quote:
I also get really irked by people using history as an excuse for sexism in fantasy. like, "these women orcs have to stay home and cook and can't go out and fight. that's how things were back then!" back when? when they were really orcs???

I've had so many otherwise very intelligent men tell me so and I've never understood that logic at all. Maybe because to them fantasy= middle aged + some dragons ?

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 8:53 am 
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monkeytoes wrote:
Scabies is probably far too tame for this show! Seriously, there are some truly horrifying parasites out there.


I am never watching this show - thanks for the warning. I know some of what's out there and I do not want to see it in HD, let alone real life.

I guess knowledge is power but I am perfectly fine with all the usual "bugs" that populate my body.


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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:27 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
like, "these women orcs have to stay home and cook and can't go out and fight. that's how things were back then!" back when? when they were really orcs???

Hah. I really like it when writers introduce things like new races or cultures that reverse the gender roles and treat people equally just to shine a light on the injustice and stupidity of all the backwards traditions.

My original point was just that you're writing from that kind of backwards culture and too many writers, for some reason, just don't use their creativity to escape it. They'll stick to human historical cultures and just fail to write female characters with any significance into their stories. Like Conan the Barbarian (as opposed to Conan the Comedian). I like that Game of Thrones doesn't do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:46 am 
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zwingtip wrote:
I am WAY too amused by pretending for a few minutes that I am not a mostly fluent reader of middle english:
Quote:
Sum men clepen it the well of [y]outhe for [th]ei [th]at often drynken [th]ere of semen allweys . . . lyuen withouten sykeness

It's been a long day, okay?


There's a well of youth in the semen alleyways?

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:49 am 
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Tigon wrote:
My original point was just that you're writing from that kind of backwards culture and too many writers, for some reason, just don't use their creativity to escape it.


Butting in to a conversation: There are no eras of human history without strong women. They've just largely been written out by male historians. (Particularly when we're talking medieval fantasy, the Middle Ages were certainly far less backwards than Game of Thrones seems to thin)

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:59 am 
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I wasn't claiming there were eras without strong women. I was claiming that there were times when brute strength was extremely important and the abuse of anyone weaker, whether that's raping, taking slaves, etc. was forced upon others. Writing a hero into that world who isn't physically imposing takes more creativity than simply making your hero someone like Conan.

I dunno, I guess that's a controversial idea that others disagree with. I thought that was the explanation for why so much fantasy is or appears to be sexist. You start with a world based on brute strength and lazy writers don't write their way out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:05 am 
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I'm just saying that the era that GoT is in theory emulating is nowhere near that dependent on brute strength. Not to mention that rape and murder were A LOT bigger deal (more stigmatized) with a complex legal system in place to deal with them. It seems to me that it should be easier to write badass ladies into an apparently medieval fantasy where the main cultural source of misogyny in the historic Middle Ages (the Church) is absent in your world. But I'm hardly an expert. Women in medieval lit is just one of my academic research interests.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:42 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
I also get really irked by people using history as an excuse for sexism in fantasy. like, "these women orcs have to stay home and cook and can't go out and fight. that's how things were back then!" back when? when they were really orcs???

Or when the woman power is their "feminine wiles" or "motherly love". That shiitake is tired.

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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:35 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Space to post things that do not go with any other topic
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:49 pm 
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