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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:20 pm 
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missmuffcake wrote:
last night the fresh cilantro at the store was a bust...so i saw organic cilantro past & read the ingredients....um, it had milk...um?
The same thing happened to me! I can't remember which one it it was, but my partner went shopping and could only find whatever herb I'd put on the list in a tube. Fortunately I was intrigued enough to read the ingredients before squeezing it into my curry or whatever because - hey presto! - it had milk. I gave it to my sister so it wasn't wasted but what the fizzle??

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:20 pm 
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monkeytoes wrote:
I ordered a veggie sandwich at Subway once and the girl asked me if I wanted to add bacon. Then she told me I should eat meat because the god said it was OK and don't I read the bible, and her manager gave me my sandwich free because I didn't come in for a sermon.


I don't understand this. Why does "dominion" have to mean pack them in factories and slaughter them and not enjoy watching fluffy lambs frolic and ensure no harm?

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:30 pm 
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And "dominion" is not where permission to eat meat comes from in the Bible anyway. "Dominion" is clearly in the context of "you can only eat plants." People are not good readers by and large.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:05 pm 
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I think its amazing how much veganism has changed me and the things I cared about. I went vegan 7 years ago, and I have almost none of my omni friends. I created a vegan community, which is great and we do lots of great things together, but I lost so many people because they just didn't invite me out or I didn't want to go to fancy dinners in the evening and eat fries while everyone thought that was what vegan food was. My friends had a last dinner for a great friend of mine who was going into hospice to die, and they didn't invite me because they thought it would be a big deal to get food and it would detract from her.

Its a big identity change to go from someone who can go anywhere, buy anything and doesn't read labels and thinks more consciously about her consumption.

I wish veganism were superconvenient and automatic - so you could just live your life and have veganism be one of many traits, and less of a huge identifying one. It would be nice to just happen to be vegan, like you just happen to be a Mets fan or like dogs and appletinis.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I think its amazing how much veganism has changed me and the things I cared about. I went vegan 7 years ago, and I have almost none of my omni friends. I created a vegan community, which is great and we do lots of great things together, but I lost so many people because they just didn't invite me out or I didn't want to go to fancy dinners in the evening and eat fries while everyone thought that was what vegan food was. My friends had a last dinner for a great friend of mine who was going into hospice to die, and they didn't invite me because they thought it would be a big deal to get food and it would detract from her.

Its a big identity change to go from someone who can go anywhere, buy anything and doesn't read labels and thinks more consciously about her consumption.

I wish veganism were superconvenient and automatic - so you could just live your life and have veganism be one of many traits, and less of a huge identifying one. It would be nice to just happen to be vegan, like you just happen to be a Mets fan or like dogs and appletinis.

This. One year I was outed from a long-term boyfriend's birthday plans because his friends "didn't think I'd have fun" at a restaurant. And I admit, sometimes I cringe at the thought of outings when I can't eat anything but a loved one's birthday is kind of an exception to that. Is it really that far-fetched that being asked would be nice? Yeesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I wish veganism were superconvenient and automatic - so you could just live your life and have veganism be one of many traits, and less of a huge identifying one. It would be nice to just happen to be vegan, like you just happen to be a Mets fan or like dogs and appletinis.


maybe it's because since i went vegan i've lived in cities where vegan food and paraphernalia are relatively easy to find, but i feel like being vegan is sort of a side aspect for me. i think the only one of my friends who would use that word to describe me is the one who's gone vegan since i met her. and when i first moved to boston, omni friends were the ones who introduced me to all of the really great veg restaurants. it sucks that your friends came to view you as an inconvenience, but when i hear people describe experiences like that i always want to assume that they must have been not-so-great friends to start with, because really, who cuts you out because of food? it's just so weird to me. is food really that central to other people's social experiences? i hope i don't sound snarky; i'm honestly sort of bewildered by the idea of ditching friends because they're hard to feed.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:37 pm 
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One of my closest friends is paleo. Now we just meet for coffee instead of going out to eat.

I feel like I can't allow my veganism to define me because I live someplace where there really aren't many vegans around. I've got my local PPK peeps, but even in this tiny corner of the world, we're all pretty far flung and making plans takes a concerted effort. (And this'll be even more the case when I move to a smallish provincial town in Belgium soon.)

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:17 pm 
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acr wrote:
when i hear people describe experiences like that i always want to assume that they must have been not-so-great friends to start with, because really, who cuts you out because of food? it's just so weird to me. is food really that central to other people's social experiences? i hope i don't sound snarky; i'm honestly sort of bewildered by the idea of ditching friends because they're hard to feed.


Well, there are some events that are about your friendship, but there are also others that are about other people, or about work or about food culture.

So here is an example. I met these 3 women in a class I took. They are awesome and constantly suggest "Hey, let's go get vegan ice-cream! or try this new vegan place!" and they create spaces for me to hang out with them and eat vegan food, but they all had birthday parties for their 1 year olds (same age as my daughter) and 2 didn't invite us to the parties which were at catering halls. They didn't want to pay $50 for me, given that I couldn't eat anything there. So when its about our friendship, then they make the event vegan, but for stuff where I am just one of many guests, then its an omni event, and I'm not invited.

Also, NYC (and the legal/finance community) has a real culture of eating out and trying new places. So people get all excited to go "to that new sushi place" or "oooh! reservations at Sparks!" "Have you read about that new place that just opened?" When I was working, my colleagues and friends (because you spend all day, night and weekends together) would go out to eat all the time, and at some point, they didn't want to trek downtown/uptown/to Brooklyn to one of the 20 vegan places, they wanted to get food in midtown or at that new sushi place or get burgers and beer around the corner, and then they didn't invite me. And I think I definitely missed out on the opportunity to network and talk shop etc because I wasn't invited.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I think its amazing how much veganism has changed me and the things I cared about. I went vegan 7 years ago, and I have almost none of my omni friends. I created a vegan community, which is great and we do lots of great things together, but I lost so many people because they just didn't invite me out or I didn't want to go to fancy dinners in the evening and eat fries while everyone thought that was what vegan food was. My friends had a last dinner for a great friend of mine who was going into hospice to die, and they didn't invite me because they thought it would be a big deal to get food and it would detract from her.

Its a big identity change to go from someone who can go anywhere, buy anything and doesn't read labels and thinks more consciously about her consumption.

I wish veganism were superconvenient and automatic - so you could just live your life and have veganism be one of many traits, and less of a huge identifying one. It would be nice to just happen to be vegan, like you just happen to be a Mets fan or like dogs and appletinis.


I totally identify with this. I haven't had these exact experiences, but I've definitely been left out in other ways. My husband's dad does these really elaborate meals for family on Sundays, and he used to accommodate us when we were vegetarian, but he's pretty much given up since we've been vegan. Every now and then, I'll convince him to do a pizza night, and we'll bring our own cheese. After we missed out on a few of them, he made it clear that we're always invited (he doesn't actually call and invite us), but we'd still have to bring our own food. Just one example of many.

I mean, I totally get it and don't expect to be accommodated, but then my mom and aunt will go out of their way to make sure we can eat and feel "normal," so I know it's possible. Kind of a bummer, but I guess it comes with the territory.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:57 pm 
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i'm probably being naive. maybe everyone i know is excluding me from stuff all the time, and i just don't hear about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:47 pm 
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acr wrote:
i'm probably being naive. maybe everyone i know is excluding me from stuff all the time, and i just don't hear about it.


that's just what I was thinking as I was reading this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:53 pm 
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ameyfm wrote:
acr wrote:
i'm probably being naive. maybe everyone i know is excluding me from stuff all the time, and i just don't hear about it.


that's just what I was thinking as I was reading this thread.


Yeah, I have never once had someone exclude me 'cause I'm vegan. In fact, it's the opposite- I get the invite, but then the spiel of "I know you probably won't want to, won't like it, etc., but you're still invited!" My brother even offers me food he makes, knowing it isn't vegan, to be polite. At work, too, I'm always considered- they buy vegan doughnuts, make sure we go to vegan restaurants, etc. I just...I wouldn't tolerate anything less. I invite my friends to everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:57 am 
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Being vegan has been really isolating for me.

Being a new mom has also been really isolating.

The confluence of the two is crushing. My vegan friends mostly have their own childfree lives so they are all eager to get together after work (ie 6 pm best case scenario more like 7:30) (my kid gets exhausted and winds down for sleep and is unfit for socializing right about then) and go eat somewhere. If we go to a restaurant people want my kid to behave like a tiny adult. Instead, my kid likes to run around everywhere and I have to monitor her carefully so she doesn't hurt herself, so I don't enjoy my food let alone the awesome conversations or hanging out and my friends are frustrated that I can't give them my full attention. And I'm frustrated at spending $25 on a meal I can't enjoy a good portion of which ends up on the floor. Weekends are good for me, but that is when everyone else wants to do something fun. All the people who were going to be my kid's "fun aunt" have generally stopped by once in the 15 months since I had her. And then they go off to the whirl of fun stuff that I can't take L to because she needs to nap, its overwhelming or dangerous etc. And about half the time I want to go somewhere, my kid ends up needing a nap or being sick right, so at the last minute I have to cancel. So in practice I almost never see my friends at all the random potlucks and dinners and festivals and event that I did when I wasn't a mother. I see people when they make an attempt to see me and arrange their schedules to fit with my kid's sleep and attention needs, so normally at my house, daylight hours. A friend who used to be my best friend, the person I saw at least 2x a week but have now seen 3x in 15 months calls it "lifestyle timing differences."

So I hang out with other mothers of kids who are about the same age as Leela and its great because our kids get along, they are around in the daytime, and they understand her limits and if we need to cancel etc. But they are almost all omnis and so I feel a disconnect there. They bring a ton of non-vegan snacks and I can't explain to a baby that we don't eat those things because she wants them, and the parents will give L a nonvegan muffin and then say "oh sorry!" And then I can be the crazy vegan who says "Never give my kid animal products" or "please can we not bring snacks or at least no nonvegan snacks?" Because then I'd have no one to hang out with. And there is so much casual conversation about things I find cruel - like people mentioning that they ate chicken, or going to zoos or are rehoming their cat for no good reason, and it makes me feel bad for the animals and separate from these people who could be part of so much cruelty and I feel suppressed because I can't say much about it. I will mention resources for going dairy and egg free for people, suggest alternatives to zoos and farms, and I am almost always the upbeat positive happy model of veganism. I really wish that it didn't matter to me to hear about or see meat or cruelty etc.

Anyway motherhood is isolating and being vegan is isolating for me. So basically there are only a few people who are both that I want to hang out with. And that is hard. I feel like all the vegans talk about focusing on the joy of being vegan and all the moms focus on the joy of being a mom, so that means you can't have real conversations about how hard and isolating both can be.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:09 am 
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Oh Tofulish, that sucks. I'm sorry you're feeling so isolated on both fronts. Have you checked into whether meetups for vegan parents exist in your area? I don't know how thick on the ground vegans are in your area, but maybe something like that exists? Or maybe it might be worth starting a meetup group like that online and see if other people are out there looking for a similar thing?

I love the PPK, but one of the downfalls of an online community is that everyone is so far flung. I know a lot of us would love to hang with you and Leela, (I know I would! And give you a big hug right now!) but dang if that commute isn't a bisque.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:30 am 
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I work really hard to keep vegan mom friends and I organize stuff and invite people and reach out (even here on the PPK :) ) and its a lot of work for an event that is often cancelled. We've all tried to do local vegan meet-ups (at least 3 have folded in the 15 months since I had L) and they work once in a while but everyone is really busy and kids get sick etc. And sometimes just bc someone is vegan and a mother doesn't mean you have a ton in common (I vaccinate my kids! I don't think BigPharma is the devil! I don't think everyone who isn't vegan or holistic is dumb sheeple and that is just a little sampling of some of the differences). And the vegan groups that are established and fun have a lot of people in them who don't like kids, so I can take L with me, but I get comments about "oh she's so destructive!" if she touches anything or her running up to people wanting to interact and seeing them be polite but kind of blow her off because they're here to talk about their lives and their veganism over delish veg food and they don't really want to spend their time on a kid. Which I understand.

Thank you for the hugs. I don't mean to be rude. I think people often think oh if you're complaining you must want a solution and if you haven't found a solution then you just aren't trying hard enough (move to Portland! ) or "Iwould never tolerate that! Or "oh they must have been shitty friends to begin with." So the fault lies with you. It can't be that it is just hard But sometimes it feels like I have two strong core identities that each isolate me a lot. I can't stop being vegan and I can't stop being a mother. I just wish this was easier - that I could turn off one aspect or the other. I think society really screws over mothers and it isolates them in a prison of unrealistic expectations and mythology (Enjoy Every Minute! This is The Greatest Joy You Will Ever Experience (subtext shut up)). But that is another thread :)

I am grateful for my online community (hence the 14,000 posts). I can't imagine how hard this would be without the PPK.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:40 am 
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Oh, tofulish. ((hugs))

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:18 am 
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That sucks that the meetups don't work out...the group here, in Louisville, KY of all places, has people of all ages and stages in their lives...single people, childless couples, people with kids, people in their 50s and 60s, newbie vegans, people who've been vegan for a long time, and just people who are interested in becoming vegan. And there are a lot of people in the group -- the potlucks are huge. My husband and I have had trouble breaking in socially though and the last one we went to was just awkward and cliquey. :\


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:37 am 
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Gah! I just listened to a show on Belgian radio that discussed an initiative that's going on now called "Days without Meat" where they're challenging people to eat less meat (not even go completely vegetarian let alone vegan). It was going really well, they had a discussion with the director of the main Veg*n organization in Belgium and a chef who has happily added a lot of vegetarian dishes to his menu (as opposed to the one sad option - if any - that most restaurants here have). They were reading reactions from listeners over the air too, and of course there were a few contrarians but mostly they were from people who wished there were better options when going out. All fine and dandy. Until the last comment before the show ended... the DJ read out a comment from one of those jackasses that thinks that "those soy eating veg-heads are destroying the rainforest!!!" And then the show ended. That was it. That was the final word. No chance for anyone to point out the fallacy in that thinking! I think I heard a vein in my head pop.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:44 am 
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We have two awesome vegan groups in the next town! I went to them all the time before I had L and the people are great and the food is fantastic. But they aren't kidfriendly - many are in the evenings when people come home from work and L is going to bed and the other is mostly adults and not a ton of kids around breakable stuff, so kids are tolerated. And I could go to them alone and ask my husband to watch her, but that often doesn't work for his schedule, she wants her mom when she is tired and I would also love to be able to blend both pieces of my life.

Lepelaar that sucks. When that happens to me I argue with the ether for days.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:15 am 
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15 months is the worst time for that. When they get a bit older they start to play together and you've had a bit more time to sift the crap-heap that is the new mum scene. It really will get better, I thought I'd go mad at that age and I wasn't even vegan! Now I have vegan, motherhood and (eek) home education too! And you find a lot of loonies rising this train, believe me!


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:59 am 
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missdelaney wrote:
ameyfm wrote:
acr wrote:
i'm probably being naive. maybe everyone i know is excluding me from stuff all the time, and i just don't hear about it.


that's just what I was thinking as I was reading this thread.


Yeah, I have never once had someone exclude me 'cause I'm vegan. In fact, it's the opposite- I get the invite, but then the spiel of "I know you probably won't want to, won't like it, etc., but you're still invited!" My brother even offers me food he makes, knowing it isn't vegan, to be polite. At work, too, I'm always considered- they buy vegan doughnuts, make sure we go to vegan restaurants, etc. I just...I wouldn't tolerate anything less. I invite my friends to everything.

My friends are all pretty considerate too. Because my friends know I'm really into food, they are often telling me what they made/ate at a restaurant/a new restaurant, none of which are usually vegan. I actually find it kind of interesting, because my mind just goes to veganizing it. My boss made this jerk rice dish with pork and veganized the recipe for me with crispy tofu and crispy kale.

There are times when I'm back in Alberta that people just don't get it, but even my friends with carcasses hanging in their garage cooked me up a vegan gnocchi, and they always eat whatever I'm eating too, which is an unnecessary but thoughtful gesture. I guess I am lucky!


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:02 am 
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Tofulish, are your friends not into the same tv shows as you? Since I mentioned this in another thread, one of my friends got pregnant and I would often go over to her house just to eat dinner and watch tv, which is why being dropped for (seemingly) being childless really bugged me, since i'm not like 'weeeee let's go out and shop and eat and drink'. I mean, obviously you want to get out of the house sometimes, but I don't see why people can't come over and chill with you guys.

Or maybe invite your vegan friends along to a fun kid place, like one of those interactive science museums or (when it's warmer) a water park. Adults love that shiitake, no matter how mature they pretend to be.

I wouldn't want to deal with non-vegan parent playgroups/family either. The idea of having to constantly have to bat food away from a kid's mouth makes my ovaries slam shut. It sounds like more stress and work than wrangling the toddler themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:03 am 
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missdelaney wrote:
ameyfm wrote:
acr wrote:
i'm probably being naive. maybe everyone i know is excluding me from stuff all the time, and i just don't hear about it.


that's just what I was thinking as I was reading this thread.


Yeah, I have never once had someone exclude me 'cause I'm vegan. In fact, it's the opposite- I get the invite, but then the spiel of "I know you probably won't want to, won't like it, etc., but you're still invited!" My brother even offers me food he makes, knowing it isn't vegan, to be polite. At work, too, I'm always considered- they buy vegan doughnuts, make sure we go to vegan restaurants, etc. I just...I wouldn't tolerate anything less. I invite my friends to everything.


Yeah, same. Even my co-workers, who are all older omnis, are really considerate and make sure that if we go out to a lunch thing, there's something I can eat. I'm pretty lucky that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:04 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I wouldn't want to deal with non-vegan parent playgroups/family either. The idea of having to constantly have to bat food away from a kid's mouth makes my ovaries slam shut. It sounds like more stress and work than wrangling the toddler themselves.



Word.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:13 am 
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Semen Strong
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Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19212
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I like the mothers in all the groups. They are very level-headed, generous, intelligent and kind and I really appreciate their friendship. Its just hard when every playdate involves non-vegan snacks (try telling a 15 month old - no you can't have the crackers because there is a bit of dairy in them and we don't want to support torture) and when people tell you about their dinner last night and you kind of want to flinch because you hear veal and think baby cows stuck in boxes starving to death and they hear yummy deliciousness with cheesey potatoes on the side.

And as for TV, she goes to bed at 7ish and the process can be anywhere from 30 mins to 3 hours, so I would be a terrible host.

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