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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:43 am 
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My pet peeve is now the lack of vegan Swiss rolls in my life. Thanks guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:51 am 
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Alaina wrote:
i got the "plant have lives too and they communicate with each other" bullshiitake yesterday. Ugh. Anyone who passed second grade science class knows that's not true!


Plants do have lives and many do "communicate" with each other (the magic of molecules!). Maybe they were claiming that plants were sentient? Which they are not, but even if they were, eating plants kills less plants than eating animals who've eaten plants.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother when I was like 6. Some idiot teacher had told me (or I had inferred from her) that plants weren't living. So, being a brat, I asked my mother if trees were alive. She said yes, so I said "no they're not! You're wrong, haha!"


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:11 am 
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Yeah, this thread is kind of making me want a TLT. Or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:05 pm 
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annak wrote:
Yeah, this thread is kind of making me want a TLT. Or two.


MMmm, and my coconut bacon just arrived. Wasn't too thrilled with my first taste, but will try it out in a sandwich. It is so insanely salty and the overall flavor and texture really reminded me of bacon in a creepy way.

I know I am ridiculous: I buy a meat-like analogue and then get creeped out if it's too "real."

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
Maybe they were claiming that plants were sentient? Which they are not...


Yeah they are! Because of that study someone was saying something about!

Vegan hypocrite!

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:21 pm 
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hahahaha :)


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:52 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
I buy a meat-like analogue and then get creeped out if it's too "real."


I do this too. ALL THE TIME.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:37 am 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
My pet peeve is now the lack of vegan Swiss rolls in my life. Thanks guys.

This! Seeing all of the Entenmann's, Little Debbie, Hostess and whatnot boxes drive me nuts. I just want to eat cheap, mainstream vegan junk food! I really don't want to eat $5 quinoa cookies! And I know we've talked about it before in other threads but I want cheapo $2 pizzas and easy mac and all of that terrible food for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:27 am 
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sea wrote:
lavawitch wrote:
I buy a meat-like analogue and then get creeped out if it's too "real."


I do this too. ALL THE TIME.


I did this the first time I gave in and bought smart tenders. "It's supposed to taste like chicken!" I cook with it that night and when I got asked why I didn't eat I reply, "It tastes just like chicken..."

Clearly there is no satisfying me haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:44 am 
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I enjoy when foods taste like the meat they are replicating, just not when they feel like the meat they are replicating. Real meat is so slimy, and i do not like to eat slime.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Nimmy wrote:
sea wrote:
lavawitch wrote:
I buy a meat-like analogue and then get creeped out if it's too "real."


I do this too. ALL THE TIME.


I did this the first time I gave in and bought smart tenders. "It's supposed to taste like chicken!" I cook with it that night and when I got asked why I didn't eat I reply, "It tastes just like chicken..."

Clearly there is no satisfying me haha.



Another impossible to satisfy vegan here - I was craving fish fingers, got a packet of Redwoods' psuedo fish fingers, and then sat there going "Eww...why do they taste like FISH?"


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
Alaina wrote:
i got the "plant have lives too and they communicate with each other" bullshiitake yesterday. Ugh. Anyone who passed second grade science class knows that's not true!


Plants do have lives and many do "communicate" with each other (the magic of molecules!). Maybe they were claiming that plants were sentient? Which they are not, but even if they were, eating plants kills less plants than eating animals who've eaten plants.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother when I was like 6. Some idiot teacher had told me (or I had inferred from her) that plants weren't living. So, being a brat, I asked my mother if trees were alive. She said yes, so I said "no they're not! You're wrong, haha!"

They meant lives like animals have lives. So yea I guess sentient. I can't have conversations with people that think a plants life is just like an animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Alaina wrote:
Ariann wrote:
Alaina wrote:
i got the "plant have lives too and they communicate with each other" bullshiitake yesterday. Ugh. Anyone who passed second grade science class knows that's not true!


Plants do have lives and many do "communicate" with each other (the magic of molecules!). Maybe they were claiming that plants were sentient? Which they are not, but even if they were, eating plants kills less plants than eating animals who've eaten plants.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother when I was like 6. Some idiot teacher had told me (or I had inferred from her) that plants weren't living. So, being a brat, I asked my mother if trees were alive. She said yes, so I said "no they're not! You're wrong, haha!"

They meant lives like animals have lives. So yea I guess sentient. I can't have conversations with people that think a plants life is just like an animals.

Apparently this is a serious new venue of philosophical inquiry.

Notre Dame Philosophical Review
April 10, 2013
Plant-Thinking: A Philosophy of Vegetal Life
Quote:
If you have been paying attention to that recent flood of work in Animal Studies (and I guess even if you haven't), Michael Marder's book will strike you as the logical next step in the conversation about ethically compelling forms and modalities of life.

In other words, Marder reads in this exclusion of plants a kind of recoil from the privileges of human thought and subjectivity, following the deconstructive sense that the privileged term in any opposition is consistently constructed and haunted by its abjected others.

Indeed, Marder deserves much credit for forcefully inserting the question of vegetable life into the mix of contemporary ethical discourse in philosophy. He exhaustively and persuasively makes a sweeping negative case concerning Western thinking and its abjection of plant.

But the more "positive" account of vegetal life is, I think, where the book falters. This is primarily because Marder's plants teach us lessons that seem strangely familiar: "The positive dimension of plant-being, as the outcome of a critique of metaphysics, will spell out an inversion of traditional valuations, valorizing the other over the self, surface over depth, and so on".

As laudable as they are, sentiments like "Plant thinking starts with the explosion of identity" depend very heavily on stock deconstructive chestnuts, the sort of stuff that has been offered as the ethical upshot of (among other formations) language, literature, painting, friendship, the feminine, the unconscious, death, desire, and animals.

Plants "tend to their other without limit, without term, and without ever reaching their final destination". In their rhizomatic patterns of growth without entelechy, plants "welcome the other better" than animals or humans; they exemplify the logic of the gift. Plants, like so many other deconstructive memes, are "resistant to idealization".

Given Marder's sense that "the emancipation of the flower will not come to pass without plant-thinking piercing through layer after layer of the idealist repression weighing upon it", plant thinking here seems more concerned with combating a totalizing human form of "idealist repression" than anything else.

In the end, though, we owe Marder (along with a series of recent books in what we might call "critical plant studies," especially Matthew Hall's Plants as Persons and Richard Doyle's fine Darwin's Pharmacy) a great debt for widening the contemporary philosophical discussion of life and ethics, taking it into the plant kingdom. Who knows where these provocations will lead? It may be that in the future the salad bar will no longer offer an unproblematic ethical refuge from the rest of the menu at the steakhouse.
(emphasis mine)

I swear this isn’t actually written by The Onion and I double-dare anyone to read the entire review without their head exploding.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Citizen Ritson wrote:
Apparently this is a serious new venue of philosophical inquiry.

Notre Dame Philosophical Review
April 10, 2013
Plant-Thinking: A Philosophy of Vegetal Life
Quote:
If you have been paying attention to that recent flood of work in Animal Studies (and I guess even if you haven't), Michael Marder's book will strike you as the logical next step in the conversation about ethically compelling forms and modalities of life.

In other words, Marder reads in this exclusion of plants a kind of recoil from the privileges of human thought and subjectivity, following the deconstructive sense that the privileged term in any opposition is consistently constructed and haunted by its abjected others.

Indeed, Marder deserves much credit for forcefully inserting the question of vegetable life into the mix of contemporary ethical discourse in philosophy. He exhaustively and persuasively makes a sweeping negative case concerning Western thinking and its abjection of plant.

But the more "positive" account of vegetal life is, I think, where the book falters. This is primarily because Marder's plants teach us lessons that seem strangely familiar: "The positive dimension of plant-being, as the outcome of a critique of metaphysics, will spell out an inversion of traditional valuations, valorizing the other over the self, surface over depth, and so on".

As laudable as they are, sentiments like "Plant thinking starts with the explosion of identity" depend very heavily on stock deconstructive chestnuts, the sort of stuff that has been offered as the ethical upshot of (among other formations) language, literature, painting, friendship, the feminine, the unconscious, death, desire, and animals.

Plants "tend to their other without limit, without term, and without ever reaching their final destination". In their rhizomatic patterns of growth without entelechy, plants "welcome the other better" than animals or humans; they exemplify the logic of the gift. Plants, like so many other deconstructive memes, are "resistant to idealization".

Given Marder's sense that "the emancipation of the flower will not come to pass without plant-thinking piercing through layer after layer of the idealist repression weighing upon it", plant thinking here seems more concerned with combating a totalizing human form of "idealist repression" than anything else.

In the end, though, we owe Marder (along with a series of recent books in what we might call "critical plant studies," especially Matthew Hall's Plants as Persons and Richard Doyle's fine Darwin's Pharmacy) a great debt for widening the contemporary philosophical discussion of life and ethics, taking it into the plant kingdom. Who knows where these provocations will lead? It may be that in the future the salad bar will no longer offer an unproblematic ethical refuge from the rest of the menu at the steakhouse.
(emphasis mine)

I swear this isn’t actually written by The Onion and I double-dare anyone to read the entire review without their head exploding.



What?




No really, what?

I don't mind considering the life of plants, but when omnis use it as a way to put down veganism as unethical while still chomping down on everything they can I just can't listen. It's as though they expect their 'clever' philosophizing to make vegans snap and go on a fleshy rampage like "RAWR I WILL CONSUME ALL LIFE BRING ME CUCUMBERS AND PUPPIES AND CHECKOUT CLERKS AND ALSO ROCKS BECAUSE I SAW ONE WITH EYES GLUED ON IT ONCE"


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:36 pm 
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i don't think that's the point? they're entertaining the idea that we might be doing more (or different) harm than we think, but i don't think anything here suggests that we might as well do as much harm as we can if we can't be perfect. i know that that argument gets made, but i don't think this is that argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Okay, I went and read the whole piece - it seems to be an exercise in deconstruction and a way of opening up philisophical debate as far as I can tell. Maybe it's more about finding a new angle in philsophy than arguing a plant is actually planning its weekend.

On the other hand...bleugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:45 pm 
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acr wrote:
i don't think that's the point? they're entertaining the idea that we might be doing more (or different) harm than we think, but i don't think anything here suggests that we might as well do as much harm as we can if we can't be perfect. i know that that argument gets made, but i don't think this is that argument.



I know :) That was a tangent based on seeing another stupid comment on the Secret Life of Plants - my informed opinion is above.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:58 pm 
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well, your first reaction was shared by one of the series editors, so i might not have been thinking critically (or pessimistically) enough. i guess i'm too baffled by the argument that i might as well strangle a chicken if i'm willing to pick a tomato to see it coming. luckily, any negative feelings that article might have inspired in me were neutralized by the ween quote.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Sometimes I get so frustrated with other vegans. Complaining that there are no good vegan restaurants in your city when there are eight to choose from (and many other vegetarian ones). Seeing an exciting new vegan product and immediately complaining about all the trivial things wrong with it. (It's OK to want vegan products to meet high standards, but start off with how excited you are that magical vegan things like marshmallows and edible cheese even exist before you complain that it's not the right flavor/ingredient/size/whatever.)


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:02 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Sometimes I get so frustrated with other vegans. Complaining that there are no good vegan restaurants in your city when there are eight to choose from (and many other vegetarian ones). Seeing an exciting new vegan product and immediately complaining about all the trivial things wrong with it. (It's OK to want vegan products to meet high standards, but start off with how excited you are that magical vegan things like marshmallows and edible cheese even exist before you complain that it's not the right flavor/ingredient/size/whatever.)



It's a great shame that this is too long to sig.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:08 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:17 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Sometimes I get so frustrated with other vegans. Complaining that there are no good vegan restaurants in your city when there are eight to choose from (and many other vegetarian ones). Seeing an exciting new vegan product and immediately complaining about all the trivial things wrong with it. (It's OK to want vegan products to meet high standards, but start off with how excited you are that magical vegan things like marshmallows and edible cheese even exist before you complain that it's not the right flavor/ingredient/size/whatever.)



+ a million! i hate when vegans beg for a vegan option then shiitake on it. not everything vegan will be the best thing ever but try to give places credit...

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:27 pm 
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conversely to this, i hate it when products that I have ethical problems with yet are vegan i am supposed to accept because they are vegan. Like Silk and other companies making organic products while with the other hand they give money to fund anti-gmo labeling campaigns. I will not buy such things, and I feel as strongly about that as not buying a block of cheese. Still my decision, and i didn't beg them to make anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:31 pm 
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It sucks when vegan food is bad, because I hate having to feel like I need to praise them for trying at all. Shitty food is shitty food.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:46 pm 
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vegetable_assassin wrote:
conversely to this, i hate it when products that I have ethical problems with yet are vegan i am supposed to accept because they are vegan. Like Silk and other companies making organic products while with the other hand they give money to fund anti-gmo labeling campaigns. I will not buy such things, and I feel as strongly about that as not buying a block of cheese. Still my decision, and i didn't beg them to make anything.

No, I think it's fine not to support companies like Silk or any company you have a problem with. But there can be a ridiculous level of criticism about new vegan products and events. It has sugar. It has oil. It isn't whole grain. It isn't gluten-free. It is gluten-free. The flavor isn't the one hoped for. The packaging isn't right. They're not selling it in X place. It's too expensive.

Obviously not everyone is going to like every product and criticism can be helpful and necessary. But the level of really harsh, heavy criticism about anything new that comes out, without any context can be too much.


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