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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Alaina wrote:
Soy that has been genetically modified, sprayed with chemicals, and then processed in even more chemicals, like hexane, is bad for you.

I know we've been over this before like a billion times and Alaina, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have major issues with statements like this. I think it's equally fear-mongering to go on about genetic modifications and "chemicals" (does this mean pesticides?? what chemicals are we talking about?) when there's no definitive study showing there are legitimate issues with GMOs, hexane, etc. It's fine if that's your personal belief, but it's misleading to make such a bold statement as if it's undisputed fact, just like it's misleading and wrong to say soy gives you manboobs. Of course hexane is not great for you, but the levels in soy are *incredibly* low and you'd have to consume an awful lot of soy products to get anywhere near the harmful levels. I work with hexane every day, probably even inhale a bit (which is much, much more harmful than ingesting a few ppm's worth), but it's not been shown even among chemists like me who are exposed every day that there is an actual health risk unless you're huffing or bathing in the stuff. There are many other things you're exposed to every day -- like UV, air pollution, or certain solvents used in everyday products -- that are way more likely to negatively impact your health but are not given as much air time because they're not nebulously science-y and don't make sexy sexy news stories.

If we're willing to roll our eyes over obviously dopey health claims about soy and other foods, then we should be willing to question and research (with lots of skepticism) every other health claim that people make.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:41 pm 
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emmalv wrote:
I went for a "wellness check" as my work calls it. Went to a new doctor because I don't have a general one, and she didn't give me attitude about a vegan diet but was all "oh for sure we'll want to test for anemia then." I bit my tongue, and yes, I realize some vegans/vegetarians may subsist solely on french fries and chips (just like omni's) and yes some people's iron levels might be lower than others' for a variety of reasons, but I thought it was sad that a medical professional could really be so clueless about nutrition by assuming one must have meat in order to avoid anemia. I haven't got my results back but I would bet that my iron levels are awesome.


Yeah, we're pretty much taught to do that in medical school, right or wrong. Nutrition isn't really given a lot of attention in most curricula and so a lot of the information we get is really oversimplified, so unless you have a doc that has a special interest in the subject or who lives in an area with a lot of vegans, most docs are going to have that reaction. If someone says they're vegan, there's a light bulb that's supposed to go off in our head saying, "Do a CBC & check B12 levels!" They're just trying to cover all of their bases. Lots of people are anemic and have no idea, since it's got pretty vague symptoms unless it's fairly severe. I can understand being annoyed, though, since as you said, there are lots of omnis who are anemic and eat tons of red meat, and most doctors probably wouldn't blame THEIR diet.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:22 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
Alaina wrote:
Soy that has been genetically modified, sprayed with chemicals, and then processed in even more chemicals, like hexane, is bad for you.

I know we've been over this before like a billion times and Alaina, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have major issues with statements like this. I think it's equally fear-mongering to go on about genetic modifications and "chemicals" (does this mean pesticides?? what chemicals are we talking about?) when there's no definitive study showing there are legitimate issues with GMOs, hexane, etc. It's fine if that's your personal belief, but it's misleading to make such a bold statement as if it's undisputed fact, just like it's misleading and wrong to say soy gives you manboobs. Of course hexane is not great for you, but the levels in soy are *incredibly* low and you'd have to consume an awful lot of soy products to get anywhere near the harmful levels. I work with hexane every day, probably even inhale a bit (which is much, much more harmful than ingesting a few ppm's worth), but it's not been shown even among chemists like me who are exposed every day that there is an actual health risk unless you're huffing or bathing in the stuff. There are many other things you're exposed to every day -- like UV, air pollution, or certain solvents used in everyday products -- that are way more likely to negatively impact your health but are not given as much air time because they're not nebulously science-y and don't make sexy sexy news stories.

If we're willing to roll our eyes over obviously dopey health claims about soy and other foods, then we should be willing to question and research (with lots of skepticism) every other health claim that people make.

Pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemicals fertilizers, I meant the whole slew of everything that's considered a chemical. There's also no definitive study (as if there's any such real thing as 100% definitive when it comes to something that has a margin of error) that those things are not bad for you, and that's the problem. You can't say that are safe, because that's also making a bold statement as undisputed fact. People aren't science experiments and we shouldn't be ingesting things that haven't been proven to be safe. And no I do not believe GMO's are safe. In fact I shouldn't be asked to believe for them to be safe, because it should proven that they are, before they are fed to people. There's already lots of studies showing that BT corn causes cancer and leukemia in lab mice and lab rats as well.
I'm fully aware of all the solvents and pollution in other things, but we were talking about food. When you live in a world where there's toxic chemicals everywhere, you need to reduce your exposure as much as you can to as much as you can. I have much more personal control over what I eat versus what I breathe, so that's a good place to start taking out as many toxic chemicals as possible. I buy everything at home organic and GMO free, it's reduced my rosacea outbreaks and lessened other skin problems, and I have less allergic reactions, all from reducing my exposure to GMO foods, pesticides, and weird food additives. I also lost a bit of weight and I didn't change my caloric intake or workout routine.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 6:04 pm 
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This thread about GMOs might be of interest.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:00 pm 
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I've been in Toronto for a week and it is truly one of the most vegan-friendly places I've ever been. Even a lot of non-veg restaurants have clearly marked vegan options and I've been eating incredibly well. There's a huge Whole Foods and little health food stores everywhere to stock up on things like nooch and VWG, and even the regular supermarkets stock lots of things like Daiya, Gardein, and Tofurky. I would KILL to have even a quarter of these options in Amsterdam.

My peeve is that today I was in Sephora and this guy was helping me find vegan makeup. He told me he was vegetarian and had tried to go vegan but it was too difficult. WTH? If you live in forking TORONTO and find it hard to be vegan, you're not trying very hard at all. I mean, there's a forking vegan restaurant in the food court in the same mall as the Sephora where this guy worked! I could have cried.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Yesterday after work I went on a field trip (seriously, I can spend hours there) to the Whole Foods megastore not-at-all-close to my apartment, and impulse-bought a Daiya frozen pizza (red flag #1-I've never tasted Daiya before). So I go home and bake it, raising my eyebrow at the instructions to heat the oven to 500 degrees fahrenheit (red flag #2). Well, 14 minutes later, I go to take it out of the oven and it is burnt to a crisp. So I broke off a small non-burnt part to taste the cheese, and it was horrible-it reminded me of fake cheese from a can or something equally disgusting.

I'm just hoping that WF will give me a refund, because I paid $10 for that piece of garbage!

Lesson learned: if you're not a big fan of frozen pizza to begin with, and you're trying a vegan product for the first time...just say no. Sigh.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Does it really say to bake at 500 for 14 minutes? The Tofurkey pizzas cook at 420 for ~11-13.

But why would WF give you a refund for not liking something? I've never heard of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:30 pm 
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They might give a refund for the instructions saying to burn it to a crisp, but you might have more luck contacting daiya. They'd probably send you a coupon. You might be ok with some product of theirs.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Whole foods is actually awesome about giving refunds if you just don't like something. Doesn't hurt to ask!


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Never would have occurred to me! Maybe I'll finally try that $12 pistachio gelato. If I like it, $12 well spent, but it's just too much money to risk on potentially bad ice cream, even if it is my all time favorite that I've not had since vegan.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Yes, it actually said to bake at 500 for 13-17 minutes, and to put the pizza directly on the rack! Insanity. I wouldn't have bothered with a refund if it had just been an issue of taste, and I suppose my common baking sense should have kicked in, but...$10 is a lot when you only make $9.38/hr! ;)

Luckily, WF gave me my money back, no questions asked. I'm totally up for trying other Daiya products; just not of the frozen pizza variety.

Lavawitch, are you referring to the pistachio cashew creme gelato by Organic Nectars? If so, I wouldn't recommend it, although your palate could be different than mine. It was just not sweet enough for my liking.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:08 pm 
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missmuffcake wrote:
Mr. Shankly wrote:
That's why there's a lot of food that I haven't posted in both of those threads that I eat myself.

If something contained bee products or milk - I would be like 'it's not vegan', then I would move on for the day. Some of those comments and the length of them were just ridiculous.

The bee/milk thing isn't so much the problem as one super weird ingredient that isn't glaringly obvious that it isn't vegan. One of those "bigwordsx-6 #4" types.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:13 pm 
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for me it is 'natural flavors'....

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:20 pm 
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I'm not sure of the brand. I might like it then! Real Italian pistachio gelato shouldn't be super sweet.

Glad you got the money back.

I like the mozzarella shreds in small amounts.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:23 am 
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Alaina wrote:
couroupita wrote:
Alaina wrote:
Soy that has been genetically modified, sprayed with chemicals, and then processed in even more chemicals, like hexane, is bad for you.

I know we've been over this before like a billion times and Alaina, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have major issues with statements like this. I think it's equally fear-mongering to go on about genetic modifications and "chemicals" (does this mean pesticides?? what chemicals are we talking about?) when there's no definitive study showing there are legitimate issues with GMOs, hexane, etc. It's fine if that's your personal belief, but it's misleading to make such a bold statement as if it's undisputed fact, just like it's misleading and wrong to say soy gives you manboobs. Of course hexane is not great for you, but the levels in soy are *incredibly* low and you'd have to consume an awful lot of soy products to get anywhere near the harmful levels. I work with hexane every day, probably even inhale a bit (which is much, much more harmful than ingesting a few ppm's worth), but it's not been shown even among chemists like me who are exposed every day that there is an actual health risk unless you're huffing or bathing in the stuff. There are many other things you're exposed to every day -- like UV, air pollution, or certain solvents used in everyday products -- that are way more likely to negatively impact your health but are not given as much air time because they're not nebulously science-y and don't make sexy sexy news stories.

If we're willing to roll our eyes over obviously dopey health claims about soy and other foods, then we should be willing to question and research (with lots of skepticism) every other health claim that people make.

Pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemicals fertilizers, I meant the whole slew of everything that's considered a chemical. There's also no definitive study (as if there's any such real thing as 100% definitive when it comes to something that has a margin of error) that those things are not bad for you, and that's the problem. You can't say that are safe, because that's also making a bold statement as undisputed fact. People aren't science experiments and we shouldn't be ingesting things that haven't been proven to be safe. And no I do not believe GMO's are safe. In fact I shouldn't be asked to believe for them to be safe, because it should proven that they are, before they are fed to people. There's already lots of studies showing that BT corn causes cancer and leukemia in lab mice and lab rats as well.
I'm fully aware of all the solvents and pollution in other things, but we were talking about food. When you live in a world where there's toxic chemicals everywhere, you need to reduce your exposure as much as you can to as much as you can. I have much more personal control over what I eat versus what I breathe, so that's a good place to start taking out as many toxic chemicals as possible. I buy everything at home organic and GMO free, it's reduced my rosacea outbreaks and lessened other skin problems, and I have less allergic reactions, all from reducing my exposure to GMO foods, pesticides, and weird food additives. I also lost a bit of weight and I didn't change my caloric intake or workout routine.


Uh, this scare-mongering makes me feel very uncomfortable. Is anyone else triggered by this? I sometimes think I need to spend less time on vegan websites, there is so much guilt-tripping about perfectly fine food.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:26 am 
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I don't usually see that kind of stuff here.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:33 am 
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No, you are right. I meant mostly vegan blogs. But even more so, this is a place I normally feel safe from this triggering stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Today's peeve involves a former museum colleague with whom I'm friends on FB. Her husband is a carpenter, she works at Plimoth Plantation (living history recreation of the English settlement on Cape Cod circa 1627; super cool), and they are very into homesteading stuff. Lots of what she posts is cool - an organic garden, rescue goats, lots of green construction projects, etc. - but recently she's been posting pictures of the chicken coop they've been working on, and of the chickens who will live (alas, all too briefly) in it. Her references to these birds by name, followed by her breezy aside about which ones are "destined for the stew pot," made me feel like I'd been stabbed in the eye with a fork. I quickly hid the post before I said something that would accomplish nothing to A. change her mind, B. help the chickens, or C. make me feel any less sick to my stomach, and inevitably lead to some stupid exchange about sustainability and honesty and blahblahblah. UGH.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Alaina wrote:
couroupita wrote:
Alaina wrote:
Soy that has been genetically modified, sprayed with chemicals, and then processed in even more chemicals, like hexane, is bad for you.

I know we've been over this before like a billion times and Alaina, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have major issues with statements like this. I think it's equally fear-mongering to go on about genetic modifications and "chemicals" (does this mean pesticides?? what chemicals are we talking about?) when there's no definitive study showing there are legitimate issues with GMOs, hexane, etc. It's fine if that's your personal belief, but it's misleading to make such a bold statement as if it's undisputed fact, just like it's misleading and wrong to say soy gives you manboobs. Of course hexane is not great for you, but the levels in soy are *incredibly* low and you'd have to consume an awful lot of soy products to get anywhere near the harmful levels. I work with hexane every day, probably even inhale a bit (which is much, much more harmful than ingesting a few ppm's worth), but it's not been shown even among chemists like me who are exposed every day that there is an actual health risk unless you're huffing or bathing in the stuff. There are many other things you're exposed to every day -- like UV, air pollution, or certain solvents used in everyday products -- that are way more likely to negatively impact your health but are not given as much air time because they're not nebulously science-y and don't make sexy sexy news stories.

If we're willing to roll our eyes over obviously dopey health claims about soy and other foods, then we should be willing to question and research (with lots of skepticism) every other health claim that people make.

Pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, chemicals fertilizers, I meant the whole slew of everything that's considered a chemical.

Like water? I don't think you understand what that word means.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Desdemona-That is mind-boggling to me. It reminds me of Gordon Ramsay's The F Word where he buys turkeys to raise in his back yard, with the help of his small children, to teach them where their food comes from. He even has the kids name them! And in one episode one of the turkeys gets an infection and they are worried about it dying...aaaargh.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:25 pm 
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vegancatlady wrote:
Desdemona-That is mind-boggling to me. It reminds me of Gordon Ramsay's The F Word where he buys turkeys to raise in his back yard, with the help of his small children, to teach them where their food comes from. He even has the kids name them! And in one episode one of the turkeys gets an infection and they are worried about it dying...aaaargh.
*Head explodes.*

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:09 pm 
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I wonder how long most people with backyard chickens keep backyard chickens. I mean, not how long a given chicken lives, but how long the chickenkeepers stay into the whole deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:31 pm 
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people and their forking chickens....ugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:54 pm 
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United Airlines has a code, VGML, that is supposed to indicate a vegan meal - no animal products. This year I've done a few overseas flights and I am growing less and less confident that these meals--which used to be sometimes pretty bad but at least vegan--are even vegan. Out of LAX I got what appeared to be paneer in a curry. This time, going from Seattle to Tokyo, I got a cheese sandwich in the middle of the flight (saved it for hubby) and one of the meals had a cookie with egg in the ingredients. The condiments seem standard issue (way to find the one balsamic vinaigrette on earth with whey), which they haven't *always* been, so I'm not concerned about those - I can read the labels - but I'm more concerned about the entrees.

Do I try requesting a Jain meal? Do I just not order a special meal and refuse the regular meal, taking my own food with me? Or do I just not eat the special meal I ordered and end up wasting it, after they go to out of the way to accommodate me (albeit unsuccessfully)? Feh.


Pet peeve the second: related to flying United, an unintentional 24 hour layover in Seattle introduced me to Cafe Flora's sunchoke hush puppies and that is not a bell I can unring. I need more, but can't get more. They could at least write another cookbook with the recipe!


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan pet peeves
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Don't say that! I am just now buying tickets and usually choose United because the VGML is usually so good! i got vegan cookies last time, even!

ETA: usually all the food i get on United seems to come out of catering services in the Newark NJ area. It is uniformly Indian-type food with nothing even suspect. I know the United flights in South America get the same meals [makes you wonder about freshness]. West coast might be different.

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