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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 9:45 pm 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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sadface on having to leave him, vijita - 'cause he sounds really awesome. i too have valid reasons for not wanting to become pregnant (or adopt children) & i've never had a doctor or family member (besides my spouse) who's truly been on the same page.... your post the other day really got to me because i was so confused as to why so many of those who care you were so upset at you for wanting what was best for you. while i don't always agree or understand a person's decision, i always try my hardest to respect it. i mean, you knew what would best serve you and it made me upset (partially because i know i'd receive a similar reaction) that other people disregarded it.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:33 am 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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I always get SO annoyed when people act like having children is the biggest and most worthwhile thing to do.
Obviously having a child is a wonderful thing if you want one, just like falling in love is wonderful, having a family is wonderful, having wonderful friends is awesome. But just because you had a child doesn't mean that you can't do other meaningful things with your life! (Obviously this is mostly a female issue, because males have done that ever since the birth of culture).
There are plenty of mothers who do great great things while being a parent, even objectively greater things than keeping their kids alive. Mothers are medical doctors, nurses, artists, engineers, bio chemists, ngo's, they write books and they are scientists who try to cure cancer or try to keep our drinking water clean, they are architects and veterinarians, they are construction workers and they do volunteer work that help people stay alive. They are politicians and political activists and journalists. They are art curators and they are entrepreneurs and they create amazing inventions. They are the people who work on factories, making the products we couldn't live without. They are the people who keep everything clean. They are great friends who drive out to pick up their friends at 4 in the morning after they just got dumped. They are people who do meaningful things that are greater than just their own life and the life of a child. Not because keeping your child alive and happy isn't awesome, of course it is, but it is not the greatest thing you can do. Great people do things that make a difference in the lives of those who they are not related to.

Obviously people should do what they want to do with their lives. We don't owe anyone to be the kinds of people who try to make the world a better place for other people. But acting like it's the greatest thing a person can do - well, that's just plain wrong.

I think I may have posted this before, but it's a WONDERFUL read. It collects my thoughts on parenthood so well; how creating unattainable goals for mothers is basically unfeminist, how our notions of how to care for children are purely cultural, how trying to be a perfect parent is basically just setting yourself up for failure etc.: Erica Jong on the Madness of Modern Motherhood.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 5:38 am 
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I agree that there are lots of mothers who do other things besides being a mother but it seems like the mother thing is only played up. Even if they don't do "major" things in their life, they are people that are more than their kids. They are friends, they are parts of various types of communities, they are human beings with their own minds. Sure being a mother is one thing in their life but it doesn't mean that is all they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:12 am 
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I definitely agree. Parent or no parent, every person have value in their own right, no matter what they do.
My point is simply that the whole "having a baby and being a mother is something that is universally better than anything you could accomplish if you don't have a child" is just straight up false. If that was true we wouldn't have evolved nor survived as a species. The evolving and upholding of a society that can keep us safe and healthy is, objectively, more important than any single person being kept alive and happy.

All that being said, I do think that Denmark celebrates working mothers and working women in general, a lot more than many places do. It probably has a lot to do with the cultural norm being that after the first year, you put your child in daycare and go back to work. The american culture of being a SUPER DUPER STAY AT HOME MOM is slowly appearing, though. I've seen well educated ladies on newspaper blogs arguing that basically it's bad for the children that they are not the center of their mother's world for the first 5-6 years of their lives. Which makes me want to rip my hair out.

I love it when there are celebrations of women accomplishing something. I've seen female networks celebrating awesome women in science and arts and those are amazing. I don't think someone being a mother is ever equated in those circles with that being a primary thing. It definitely gives me hope for the future when women are being celebrated for being brilliant and hard working. Kindness and softness have long been the main goal of femininity and it makes me uncomfortable.

Also, it is totally normal that people celebrate when they get their master's degree, a ph.d., etc. I think it's pretty common to have a party to celebrate when you finish trading school, too. I'm all for celebrating whatever goals people achieve. I don't think it's tacky or anything. It's not like people have to bring gifts or anything, it's just a bunch of people hanging out, drinking wine, celebrating. I think every single child free person should feel free to celebrate whatever they want to.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:37 am 
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Well I think of my mother who was a single mother for many years, worked two full time jobs at one point. She does some community work but very little. She never went to college, worked as a janitor all her life but she has a full, active life and it wasn't centered around promoting me as her greatest accomplishment. She has friends, she has family beyond me, she is a caring person, she loves dogs, she loves has lots of friends who she enjoys spending time with, despite never going to college, she owns a house and is able to retire next month and plans to spend more time with her friends and family. I know my mom has had a rough life and I'm proud of her but I can't imagine what her life would've been if she had tried to make me the entire center of her life. Now I won't say we have issues but it'd be much, much worse if I was only thing going for her.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 7:09 am 
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i'm willing to go out on a limb and say that it's much easier for mothers with partners to make their children their greatest accomplishment. because there's less pressure on them to earn money, so they can choose to allow their lives to revolve around their kids.)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 12:35 pm 
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it is hard finding a gyno who is on board with being child-free. i have had to switch doctors a few times. once a doctor asked 'what would happen if my boyfriend decided to want kids'...well, golly geez doctor, i will just pop out one of them babies to keep him around! because having kids to keep a man around is not only going to keep him around but totally the right thing to do!!!

seriously, i learned from an early age, that if a guy is not going to stick around for you, he will not stick around for you and a kid. i am still seeing women my age puzzled by this.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 4:51 am 
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I wonder if the rise of the cult of motherhood is somehow linked to the rise of social media. In the sense of, social media gives more people a platform to express their views, also to people who might not have had the chance of being heard before. So if before you would read about great achievements in magazines and tv, now you have any one who can posting status updates on facebook and twitter and people see it and relate it and share it and suddenly it becomes a Great Important Thing.
Especially if stay at home mothers who before had no chance to express themselves publicly now have the possibility and (maybe?) the time to do so, it all spirals out of control.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:01 am 
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It could also be in response to childfree women becoming more accepted/mainstream. There is a more public awareness of those of us who choose not to be tied down to the role of motherhood, which holds a definite sense of freedom. Perhaps the cult of motherhood is their way of saying "Yes, but we're still important! We're valid! You may be free, but look what I'm doing!"

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:39 am 
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I saw a commercial for a new CW show about a virgin accidentally getting artificially impregnated by her doctor. She seems to not want the kid but everyone around her is convincing her how great it will be. This show makes me sad already even though it looks like a rom-com type thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:38 am 
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missmuffcake wrote:
I saw a commercial for a new CW show about a virgin accidentally getting artificially impregnated by her doctor.

Wait.

How?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:59 am 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
missmuffcake wrote:
I saw a commercial for a new CW show about a virgin accidentally getting artificially impregnated by her doctor.

Wait.

How?


Medical malpractice is hilarious.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:

Medical malpractice is hilarious.



i know right?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Here's the pitch...attractive gyno jerks off at the office, forgets to wash hands or wear gloves. Attractive young inexperienced patient comes in for exam. Whoopsie! Hilarity ensues! A surefire hit.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:34 pm 
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I'd like to believe that isn't the actual storyline, but given it's the CW it probably is.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:10 pm 
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From the website: "All of Jane’s meticulous life plans are turned upside down, however, when she sees her doctor for a routine check-up and is accidentally artificially inseminated with a specimen meant for the patient in the next room."

So...yeah, completely wackerdoodles, but technically not actually biologically impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:12 pm 
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what, so he doesn't speak to his patients while he's doing procedures? maybe women aren't people, so they don't deserve the conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:37 pm 
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That's not a sit-com; that's two separate malpractice suits. What kind of person thinks that's a good idea for a show?!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:37 pm 
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....and a HILARIOUS lawsuit ensues. Oh no, wait, that just happens in the real world.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:50 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
From the website: "All of Jane’s meticulous life plans are turned upside down, however, when she sees her doctor for a routine check-up and is accidentally artificially inseminated with a specimen meant for the patient in the next room."

So...yeah, completely wackerdoodles, but technically not actually biologically impossible.

And of course she's uptight. Because, relax, women. Smile. Have unwanted pregnancies.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 4:42 pm 
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and upon realising it (right away, since the woman in the next room would most definitely inquire) why wouldn't he give the first woman plan B or whatever else would be appropriate.

oh wait? is her name mary, and is it set in the middle east around the year 0?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:26 pm 
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i was telling my boyfriend about the show...we discussed how it reinforces the idea that women are just baby vessels. i seriously doubt the cw will bring up abortion.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:41 am 
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I've been bingeing on STFU, Parents posts on the Mommyish website lately for some reason, and in my wanderings, I also ran across this (admittedly not too recent) post: Adultism: People, Get Over Your Hatred Of Children.

Not only does the author equate the creation of child-free spaces with Jim Crow segregation, (Seriously? Seriously?!), and seems to feel like those of us who choose to remain child-free face "no judgement", but she also seems to blame "adultism" for the early sexualization of young girls and child celebrities. What? I'm so confused. Can anyone else make heads or tales of how she gets from restaurants banning kids under six and people choosing not to have kids to the exploitation of Demi Lovato?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:17 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
From the website: "All of Jane’s meticulous life plans are turned upside down, however, when she sees her doctor for a routine check-up and is accidentally artificially inseminated with a specimen meant for the patient in the next room."

So...yeah, completely wackerdoodles, but technically not actually biologically impossible.

And of course she's uptight. Because, relax, women. Smile. Have unwanted pregnancies.
You look so much prettier when you're smiling about your unwanted pregnancy!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:19 am 
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That woman has serious issues.

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