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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
oh, and i totally thought the benatar reference really was about ms. pat. (particularly "suffer the little children"/"hell is for children" oops!)


I linked to his book in my first post here.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:02 pm 
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People who regret having children: http://www.experienceproject.com/groups ... ren/219469


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:28 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
The PPK isn't about excluding folks, OF COURSE, but part of what we mods do is try to promote respectful dialogue, and that includes sometimes reminding people about the original intent of a thread. In this case, the OP specifically asked for childless women's takes on a particular issue, so the above post was intended both to add to that conversation and to attempt to remind other posters of what the topic of this thread is. I will note that there have been a bunch of reports made about some of the posts made by parents in this thread, and Isa earlier requested some respect for the OP's question.


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3632

Quote:
1- Even if you say "safe space to talk about manicures" someone will come in and disagree with your idea about manicures. Then the thread becomes more about modding the thread than about the subject itself.

2- It can actually create a hostile environment. For instance, because it's a "safe space to talk about manicures" people can insult people who don't have manicures, and no one can defend them because it's a "safe space." It becomes a convenient way to shut people down.

3- It's a discussion board, not a livejournal or facebook page. We can not dictate how a thread is going to turn out. As long as people are exercising basic common sense and not being purposefully crassholes, all opinions are welcome, for better or for worse.

Obviously if a topic is in need of a "safe space" then it is an emotionally charged topic. It seems like a bad idea to have these emotionally charge topics be one-sided.

So I would suggest that if a topic is too much for you to handle, then don't discuss it on a message board. If you would like to discuss only one viewpoint on a subject, perhaps take it to your facebook or a place where you have more control.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:39 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
The PPK isn't about excluding folks, OF COURSE, but part of what we mods do is try to promote respectful dialogue, and that includes sometimes reminding people about the original intent of a thread. In this case, the OP specifically asked for childless women's takes on a particular issue, so the above post was intended both to add to that conversation and to attempt to remind other posters of what the topic of this thread is. I will note that there have been a bunch of reports made about some of the posts made by parents in this thread, and Isa earlier requested some respect for the OP's question.


http://forum.theppk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3632

Quote:
1- Even if you say "safe space to talk about manicures" someone will come in and disagree with your idea about manicures. Then the thread becomes more about modding the thread than about the subject itself.

2- It can actually create a hostile environment. For instance, because it's a "safe space to talk about manicures" people can insult people who don't have manicures, and no one can defend them because it's a "safe space." It becomes a convenient way to shut people down.

3- It's a discussion board, not a livejournal or facebook page. We can not dictate how a thread is going to turn out. As long as people are exercising basic common sense and not being purposefully crassholes, all opinions are welcome, for better or for worse.

Obviously if a topic is in need of a "safe space" then it is an emotionally charged topic. It seems like a bad idea to have these emotionally charge topics be one-sided.

So I would suggest that if a topic is too much for you to handle, then don't discuss it on a message board. If you would like to discuss only one viewpoint on a subject, perhaps take it to your facebook or a place where you have more control.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:45 pm 
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rhelune wrote:


My mom would fit in. I think this is because my sister died. Maybe she is trying to fit in with my choice? I don't know for sure...My insecurities are to afraid to ask if she regrets me (I know she does not) and her insecurities are always around the question "if she was a good mom"...

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:12 pm 
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My mother's life would definitely have been better had she never reproduced. I know she made the bed, but I feel sorry for her any way. Whatever happens: poverty, war, abuse, personal loss, it's harder if you do have children (who aren't adults yet). She's been through a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:22 pm 
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My mom told me before that she never would've had a child by my father if she knew that I would've been obese. He was a large man (nearly 500 lbs at one point) and I think she blamed genetics since she was also obese (but on a lesser scale). I'm not worried, genetics is a small part and I can take responsibility.

Anyway, my mother was greatly affected by a late term (8 month) still born a few years before me. I think it greatly affected our relationship and I don't think she ever got over it. I think losing a child has got to be one of the most difficult things you can encounter as a parent, hell I cry if I think about my (cat, dog) babies dying one day. I know it'll happen, I know it'll be painful but I think I can comfort myself in knowing that they shared their lives with us and we try to give them a good life. With a child though, I don't think any parent ever expects it to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:35 pm 
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Obesity is not a disease, even if it is a risk for some. She shouldn't feel guilty because of that.

My mother lost a toddler son when I was 2 months old. She's been overprotective ever since. A helicopter parent. Extremely superstitious and frightened. She god rid of my biological father for good when I was about 5yo, and I've had a wonderful father ever since.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:29 pm 
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rhelune wrote:


I do find it interesting that most of these seem to be people who had unplanned pregnancies... not a lot of "I wanted kids and then regretted it."


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:39 pm 
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In terms of the complaining that parents aren't allowed to post in this thread, that isn't true. We asked that the thread not be steered into a parenting thread. Maybe it's an imperfect solution, but it's a solution that seems to be working for the people who have no children that want to talk about it. Parents are allowed to post in this thread and in fact have been. Some in a respectful way and some not so much. Which is why the mods keep needing to remind people to stay on topic. Because we're like parents.

AND PS, 98% of the people posting have been respectful. The other 2% will probably be calling me a crasshole on their FB right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:48 pm 
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rhelune wrote:
Also, liking babies is not a reason to have a baby, but to work with babies. Babies stop being babies soon and become toddlers, kids, teenagers.

oh, man, this. some women i've known who said for years that they didn't want families changed their minds in their thirties, which would be fine, but when they were explaining the shift (which they seemed to feel compelled to do; i never asked), they all said things like, "i don't know, i just started noticing babies more, and suddenly babies seemed so much cuter than they had before." seriously? it bothered me so much. you know they're only babies for, like, a second, right? did surly adolescents seem cuter, too? what about that nine-year-old boy throwing sticks at the other kids in the playground? does he fill your heart and uterus with longing? i know that once the kid is there, most people love it the same amount forever, but parents to be rarely talk about a sudden desire to help an adolescent with his or her algebra homework. they go on and on about how cute baby clothes and shoes are, though. it seems so silly. for the most part, the tenderness adult humans feel toward baby humans is just programming. it isn't a sign.

i feel a lot of relief when i remember that no kid of mine will ever have to take care of me when i'm old and feeble. i've seen the heartache and stress that my dad and aunt have experienced trying to look after my grandfather, and i know that my dad is already trying to get things in order so my sister and i won't be in that situation someday. i wouldn't think twice about doing whatever i needed to do for my parents, but still, i hate the idea of someone i love having to rearrange his or her entire life for me. my great-grandmother lived alone in a fourth-floor walk-up in the inner city from the time her husband died, when she was in her late sixties, until she died in her nineties, and in the meantime she survived two kinds of cancer while bringing her own groceries home on the bus. she set an excellent precedent. my mom gave me great-grandma's very sturdy flat-bottomed shopping bag when i moved out, and it's still holding groceries. so far, so good.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:50 pm 
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I'm a bit confused by solipstination's comment above, and Ariann's very hurtful comment in the companion Playground thread about how this "thread already went down an ugly, judgmental route; I think there's very little risk of the same happening here no matter who posts."

No one said anyone is unwelcome here. And the implication that we are ugly and judgmental by talking about being CFBC and wanting a respectful place to do so is really mean-spirited. Some self-identified parents have contributed to this thread, like Desdemona's thoughtful posts. But why is it ugly and judgmental to want a space to talk about the choice to not have children? And what's with the implication that ugliness and judgement has "very little risk" of happening in the parents' thread? There's an entire room devoted to discussing having children and the effects of that. What has happened here is a reaction to some people coming in and talking about how they used to not want children, but now have them and how great that transformation has been. There's nothing wrong with that experience, but maybe this isn't the right thread for those kind of comments because that is exactly the kind of comment that compels a need for a thread like this. What people seem to be grappling with here--and especially a lot of people who self identify as women, or have wombs--is how complicated, lonely, and also exciting and liberating and many other things it can be to make the choice to be childfree, in a society that is entirely and forcefully dominated by a viewpoint that the norm is partnership and children. Making the choice not to do that is exceptional, and people are in a discussion here about how they handle and experience that exceptional choice. A lot of the conversation here is about how childfree people feel judged or looked down upon or left out at work or with friends or with family. And again, there are a lot of positives here too.

It seems important to reiterate that all are welcome here. But comments that reinforce exactly what the posters here are trying to get away from, aren't helpful. And of course, here, like anywhere, the voices in the thread vary in terms of tact and respect. That's true in every thread in every room on this board. Again, I think the best comparison is in the bachelorette thread, a thread the OP designed for single people to talk about the lonely and sometimes wonderfully weird (bag o' tings) meals that they eat solo when many of their friends are out eating dinners they made with their partners. When coupled people come into that thread and talk about making food *with their partner* that stings and bucks the original point of the thread--to create community among a certain group of people outside the dominant societal norm (in that case, of coupledom).

That's why is trying to be attempted here--the creation of a community of people who could use a bit of support for their choices, and want to talk about their experiences. A lot like veganism. We have a lot of non-vegans who post on the PPK, and that's fine, but when they post about meat or dairy, then that's not respectful. Same situation here.

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Last edited by molasses jane on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:52 pm 
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(Evidently I was composing my tome while Isa posted and more succinctly said what I intended)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:58 pm 
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I think you did a better job, though! I mean seriously. ONE THREAD. And it's a thread where comments like "fork BREEDERZ" and "I HATEZ DA KIDZ" are modded as well. Let people discuss it for crissakes and if it's somehow driving you bonkers simply (gasp) don't read it.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:03 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
And it's a thread where comments like "fork BREEDERZ" and "I HATEZ DA KIDZ" are modded as well.

whoa, really?!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:05 pm 
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I’m in my late 40’s and never wanted children. I have absolutely no regrets. I love kids, and even did/do lots of babysitting for nephews and nieces and friends kids, but that never changed how I felt.
There is no right answer, it’s an individual choice. We are all human, come from different backgrounds, and live in different circumstances. Who really knows why we do the things we do and make the choices we make. It would be nice though if people could be more respectful of our choices. I have found women to be the worst for being judgmental and making nasty comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:18 pm 
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i only consider people to be breeders if they have more than 2 kids. otherwise, they're more like... sustainers? neither statistically increasing the population nor helping it decrease. (assuming grandparents don't live much longer past their great grandchildrens' births.)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
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molasses jane, i think that was a great post.

molasses jane wrote:
I'm a bit confused by solipstination's comment above, and Ariann's very hurtful comment in the companion Playground thread about how this "thread already went down an ugly, judgmental route; I think there's very little risk of the same happening here no matter who posts."

I'm confused by solips' post too...
As to Ariann's, perhaps it's my naivete or internal bias or not reading the the thread correctly, but I interpreted this as commenting on some of the parents posting in this thread when i read it. And that the "very little risk" thing as being down to the subject of the playground's thread title (or perhaps the slightly... cloistered (?) nature of that subforum). I dunno though, now you're making me think more on it I'm less sure. I'd like to hear what Ariann has to say in that respect.

Oh, and also:
IsaChandra wrote:
I mean seriously. ONE THREAD.

+1 for serious. One forking thread versus a whole forum about kids and parenthood. Catch yersels on.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
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PNB: Childfree term which stands for "Parent Not Breeder". The PNB is the opposite of the BNP, or "Breeder Not Parent".
A PNB will control his or her children appropriately in public situations, is not afraid to discipline them, and understands that people in public places may not wish to be exposed to children. Does not bring children to inappropriate places, such as R-rated movies, bars, or fine dining establishments. Does not believe that parent status entitles one to preferential treatment in public.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=PNB

BNP: Childfree term which means "Breeder Not Parent". Opposite of PNB, or "Parent Not Breeder".
BNPs are unwilling to discipline their children, ignore misbehavior on the part of children, and believe parental status entitles them to preferential treatment. They believe everything their child does is "cute" and cannot fathom anyone wishing not to be exposed to children. They disdain anyone without children, and feel superior to the childfree.
They are likely to bring children to inappropriate places, such as R-rated movies, bars, or fine dining establishments.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... id=1289453


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
I've really enjoyed reading all the responses in this thread, as someone else who is CFBC. I've noticed a lot of people have said they would rather focus on their career than on child rearing, which in a way implies that people who do have children are less invested in their career. I don't think that's true. I used to say this myself, and of course my career is really important to me, but I actually invest a ton of my time in family whether it's my friends, my relatives, my partner, or my furbabies (and I think if it was all added together it would be equal to the time I would invest in raising a child). Sometimes I wonder how many of us say this as a programmed response, as if we need to find something "equally important" to spend our time on and a career is one answer that people will have fewer objections to.


For me, this is not it. I am not sure how many parents would consider their career the "most important thing" in their lives, maybe it is a lot or only a few, I don't know. But for me, it is. I want to devote absolutely everything I have to my chosen career, instead of having to deal with the feelings and needs and school functions and friends of a little one on top of that. I don't think that means I'm implying that parents are less invested in their career, because they have children whose needs they also have to prioritize.

I want to prioritize my needs, and that includes an intense need for my career.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:30 pm 
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DrakeRedcrest wrote:
couroupita wrote:
I've really enjoyed reading all the responses in this thread, as someone else who is CFBC. I've noticed a lot of people have said they would rather focus on their career than on child rearing, which in a way implies that people who do have children are less invested in their career. I don't think that's true. I used to say this myself, and of course my career is really important to me, but I actually invest a ton of my time in family whether it's my friends, my relatives, my partner, or my furbabies (and I think if it was all added together it would be equal to the time I would invest in raising a child). Sometimes I wonder how many of us say this as a programmed response, as if we need to find something "equally important" to spend our time on and a career is one answer that people will have fewer objections to.


For me, this is not it. I am not sure how many parents would consider their career the "most important thing" in their lives, maybe it is a lot or only a few, I don't know. But for me, it is. I want to devote absolutely everything I have to my chosen career, instead of having to deal with the feelings and needs and school functions and friends of a little one on top of that. I don't think that means I'm implying that parents are less invested in their career, because they have children whose needs they also have to prioritize.

I want to prioritize my needs, and that includes an intense need for my career.


I so agree with this, DrakeRedcrest. I feel like a lot of people around me say or think that I focus on my career because I'm without kids and currently single. But that's not at all true. I love my career. As you say "I want to devote absolutely everything I have to my chosen career." Me too. Exactly this.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Sang it. I love my business and the work I do.
My primary reason for not having kids is because I have no interest in having kids. If someone doesn't like that, sawg 'em. I've never felt the need to justify that to anyone cause it isn't a bawbag's business.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:11 pm 
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FORK BREEDERZ! I HATEZ DA KIDZ!

Hehehehe.

I want to comment on two things mentioned above.

1) saying you have chosen to not have children because you want to focus on your career does not mean that you think other people can't have both comfortably. Maybe it just means you don't feel you can do both. Maybe it's just an easy cop out like saying you're vegan for health reasons and not elaborating (which I do, regularly, if I think the person will be a crasshole about it). I'm sure there are people who think you can't do both, but you can't jump to that conclusion.

2) acr's comment about 30ishers changing their mind about kids. It's funny because I am 28 and just in the past year have been able to handle kids a lot more, I've enjoyed them a lot more, and I appreciate the cuteness of babies/toddlers a lot more. They don't seem like the completely reprehensible sticky meatbags that I used to think they were. But not for one second have I thought "kids are a lot less disgusting seeming, so I guess that means I want some now!"

My best friend from highschool is going to pop any second - today is her due date and docs have been saying for a couple weeks that the baby is in place and everything is good to go. Since she found out she was pregnant I've been making a point to spend more time with kids and get more used to them since my friends are all hell bent on procreation.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:17 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
Sang it. I love my business and the work I do.
My primary reason for not having kids is because I have no interest in having kids. If someone doesn't like that, sawg 'em. I've never felt the need to justify that to anyone cause it isn't a bawbag's business.


This. And the reason I didn't continue in the topic. I don't feel any need to validate or justify that one particular life decision to any parent or non-parent.

But I'm so going into the bachelorette meal thread and tell everyone what my husband and I like to eat.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:24 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
What has happened here is a reaction to some people coming in and talking about how they used to not want children, but now have them and how great that transformation has been. There's nothing wrong with that experience, but maybe this isn't the right thread for those kind of comments because that is exactly the kind of comment that compels a need for a thread like this.


I read back over the thread, and I think my posts are the only ones that fit the bill. I apologized for them on page 3 of the thread, but wanted to clarify what I meant to say:

Not having children was the best decision I made for my life in my 20s and 30s. We all get only so much time, energy and resources and people should spend those doing what they love. I was childfree by choice and used that time to get multiple degrees, travel the world, live in France, Germany, Hong Kong, go scuba diving, skiing and have an intensely rewarding and interesting professional life. I could never had done that had I had a child during those years. Those years were amazing. They made me who I am and they rock.

People should make the right decision for themselves. Anyone who makes an intelligent, informed decision that makes them happy is a hero in my book.

Some of the best people in my life are child-free and many of them are on this thread. I think you guys are amazing, you have amazing lives and you are passionate and you are happy. And that is wonderful. Again my apologies if I left anyone feeling judged. That was not my intention.

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Last edited by Tofulish on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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