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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:24 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
I've really enjoyed reading all the responses in this thread, as someone else who is CFBC. I've noticed a lot of people have said they would rather focus on their career than on child rearing, which in a way implies that people who do have children are less invested in their career. I don't think that's true. I used to say this myself, and of course my career is really important to me, but I actually invest a ton of my time in family whether it's my friends, my relatives, my partner, or my furbabies (and I think if it was all added together it would be equal to the time I would invest in raising a child). Sometimes I wonder how many of us say this as a programmed response, as if we need to find something "equally important" to spend our time on and a career is one answer that people will have fewer objections to.

I'm not a parent, so of course take what I say with a grain of salt, but I think there is a huge difference between having a child (especially being the primary caregiver, which is the default for women in our society) and investing a lot of time into adult relationships.

Even if the amount of time is the same (which I frankly doubt--you're probably not getting up to soothe your friend at 2 am, or having to stay home from work because your cousin has the flu), the mental work isn't. With adult relationships (with healthy people able to make their own care and life decisions) you aren't planning when they need to eat, if they have field trips you need to plan for, if there's a sleepover on Saturday, etc.

And you are able to say "I know we had x plans today, but work just got crazy, I'm so sorry can we reschedule?" I'm pretty confident that that isn't really an option with kids.

Which isn't to say that people with kids aren't invested in their careers, but that those with and without kids are able to approach their careers in different ways due to the constraints of their own lives.

And I don't personally feel a need for an excuse or anything of that nature as to why I don't want kids. The fact that I don't want them is enough.

On another note, I really hate the term "breeder". I think it's ugly and disrespectful.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Tofulish, are you aware that it is offensive to childfree people when you say that you were childfree before you had a kid? Childfree people are people who don't want to have children ever, don't leave even a slightest possibility that they'll reproduce (or adopt) one day. Others are fencesitters. (Many of the posts in this thread are by fencesitters, and that's perfectly fine.)

It's like strict vegetarians who claim they stopped being vegan when, in reality, they never gave a fork about animals, only about their own health.

Because of posts like this many people don't take childfreedom seriously. And, when our gynaecologists don't take us seriously and refuse to even discuss sterilization "so that [we] can change [our] mind and become a mother], it medically and socially harms us.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Ha, childfree purity. I don't think it is very feminist to say that people that leave the option open a 'problem'.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:35 pm 
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rhelune wrote:
Tofulish, are you aware that it is offensive to childfree people when you say that you were childfree before you had a kid? Childfree people are people who don't want to have children ever, don't leave even a slightest possibility that they'll reproduce (or adopt) one day. Others are fencesitters. (Many of the posts in this thread are by fencesitters, and that's perfectly fine.)

It's like strict vegetarians who claim they stopped being vegan when, in reality, they never gave a fork about animals, only about their own health.

Because of posts like this many people don't take childfreedom seriously. And, when our gynaecologists don't take us seriously and refuse to even discuss sterilization "so that [we] can change [our] mind and become a mother], it medically and socially harms us.

Well aye... but naw. You know how some people are straightedge and then they're not? And then some people are all "well then, you were never straightedge to begin with!" Not directly comparable, I guess, but you can be positively 'childfree' and then change your mind. It happens. It's allowed. It's ok.
That's not to defend what 'Fulish has posted in this thread. I mean, even the latter post of "Not having children was the best decision I made for my life in my 20s and 30s." still persists in the whole and then i had a baby and it was awesome thing. Even if it's not said it is there.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:36 pm 
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Tofulish, I hope you understand that your clearly compassionate and heartfelt post implies: "Not having children was the best decision I made for my life in my 20s and 30s. And now having children is the best decision of my 40s." And, whether intended or not, framing the discussion this way rubs people who are at the same point as you, and did not make the same choice you did, the wrong way. I really truly don't think that's what you intend, but that's the subtext, at least to this reader--and it seems, to some others. And this is a message that people, especially women, in their late 30s and 40s hear every single day from everyone around them. Now, you write many other lovely things you here, which are valuable and thoughtful. And I really disagree with Rhelune's take--I don't find the term "childfree" sacred or loaded, and am using it somewhat casually myself. I'm just trying to clarify what it is about this dialogue that is clearly frustrating for some people, including me.

Again, it's not about whether or not someone posting here actually has or wants a kid or not, it is how the conversation is framed.

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Last edited by molasses jane on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:39 pm 
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rhelune wrote:
Tofulish, are you aware that it is offensive to childfree people when you say that you were childfree before you had a kid? Childfree people are people who don't want to have children ever, don't leave even a slightest possibility that they'll reproduce (or adopt) one day. Others are fencesitters. (Many of the posts in this thread are by fencesitters, and that's perfectly fine.)



Lots of people who are adamantly child free change their minds. Lots of people who are set on having children change their minds. Your stance is like saying an avid hunter, dairy farmer, or bee keeper can't become vegan. And saying that someone is a "fence sitter" because they acknowledge that they may change their mind one day isn't fair either. I am not a fence sitter. I do not want to have children. But I just might be struck by lightening and suddenly want a house full of kids. I 100% do not want that to happen. But, you know, it COULD.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:54 pm 
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What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:56 pm 
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erynne936 wrote:
What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.


I didn't know that. That's really helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Childfree community? As a person who doesn't have children nor plans to, the language is offensive. If there are some out there that think that it is unacceptable to think that there is even a slight, minute, tiny chance that can change, then screw them.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:02 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Childfree community? As a person who doesn't have children nor plans to, the language is offensive. If there are some out there that think that it is unacceptable to think that there is even a slight, minute, tiny chance that can change, then screw them.


How is this different than veganism? As someone new to the term "childfree", I'm asking with genuine curiosity of trying to understand the difference in concepts. In theory, we could all think that there is a slight, minute, tiny chance we could start eating dairy again, right? (I don't actually think this, but might childfree people who use that term feel the way we do about veganism?)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:02 pm 
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erynne936 wrote:
What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.

but... what? how is that comparable? 'I'm childfree but sometimes I give birth/adopt when I'm at a dinner party and don't want to make a "fuss"'

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:03 pm 
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interrobang?! wrote:
erynne936 wrote:
What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.

but... what? how is that comparable? 'I'm childfree but sometimes I give birth/adopt when I'm at a dinner party and don't want to make a "fuss"'


Please invite me to your next dinner party.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:05 pm 
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I can see how exhausting it must be to have to constantly defend your choices as childfree, but I can't help but think that things like "breeder", "fencesitter", etc. make it an us vs. them fight when it really needn't be. We should all be working together to broaden women's choices, to make parenthood a do-able choice for those who want it and to make non-parenthood an unquestioned position.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:06 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
I can see how exhausting it must be to have to constantly defend your choices as childfree, but I can't help but think that things like "breeder", "fencesitter", etc. make it an us vs. them fight when it really needn't be. We should all be working together to broaden women's choices, to make parenthood a do-able choice for those who want it and to make non-parenthood an unquestioned position.


High five!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:07 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
linanil wrote:
Childfree community? As a person who doesn't have children nor plans to, the language is offensive. If there are some out there that think that it is unacceptable to think that there is even a slight, minute, tiny chance that can change, then screw them.


How is this different than veganism? As someone new to the term "childfree", I'm asking with genuine curiosity of trying to understand the difference in concepts. In theory, we could all think that there is a slight, minute, tiny chance we could start eating dairy again, right? (I don't actually think this, but might childfree people who use that term feel the way we do about veganism?)


How is it the same? Are you saying someone isn't vegan if they think there is a slight chance they could eat animal products? Someone can only be considered childfree if they only sign in blood? I think there are variances in those that are childfree, some are willing to take permant measures biologically, some aren't.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:11 pm 
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linanil wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
linanil wrote:
Childfree community? As a person who doesn't have children nor plans to, the language is offensive. If there are some out there that think that it is unacceptable to think that there is even a slight, minute, tiny chance that can change, then screw them.


How is this different than veganism? As someone new to the term "childfree", I'm asking with genuine curiosity of trying to understand the difference in concepts. In theory, we could all think that there is a slight, minute, tiny chance we could start eating dairy again, right? (I don't actually think this, but might childfree people who use that term feel the way we do about veganism?)


How is it the same? Are you saying someone isn't vegan if they think there is a slight chance they could eat animal products? Someone can only be considered childfree if they only sign in blood? I think there are variances in those that are childfree, some are willing to take permant measures biologically, some aren't.


No, no. I think I misunderstood you, Linanil. I thought that is what you were saying!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:13 pm 
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interrobang?! wrote:
erynne936 wrote:
What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.

but... what? how is that comparable? 'I'm childfree but sometimes I give birth/adopt when I'm at a dinner party and don't want to make a "fuss"'


Sorry I wasn't clear. I only meant similar in that people from the vegan community take the term vegan seriously and have a specific definition that the the general public may not be aware of even if they use the term. I meant in the way specific communities have their own accepted definitions of words.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:16 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
interrobang?! wrote:
erynne936 wrote:
What rhelune said is indeed the terminology in the childfree community. It's kind of like people who eat fish sometimes saying they're vegan. Not saying that the terms can't be taken as offensive. But those are the terms.

but... what? how is that comparable? 'I'm childfree but sometimes I give birth/adopt when I'm at a dinner party and don't want to make a "fuss"'


Please invite me to your next dinner party.


Dude, yes. Gotta love birthing dinner parties! Is it potluck, if so, I'll bring the placenta!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Those communities sound like they are crassholes. I think I'm signing up with the church of j-dub.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:18 pm 
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Moon wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
Please invite me to your next dinner party.


Dude, yes. Gotta love birthing dinner parties! Is it potluck, if so, I'll bring the placenta!


Explaining once and for all where vegans get their iron!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:20 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
Moon wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
Please invite me to your next dinner party.


Dude, yes. Gotta love birthing dinner parties! Is it potluck, if so, I'll bring the placenta!


Explaining once and for all where vegans get their iron!


We don't get it from eating delicious babies? (Maybe the real reason I don't want to have kids is because I'm afraid I'll eat them.)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Moon wrote:
molasses jane wrote:
interrobang?! wrote:
but... what? how is that comparable? 'I'm childfree but sometimes I give birth/adopt when I'm at a dinner party and don't want to make a "fuss"'


Please invite me to your next dinner party.


Dude, yes. Gotta love birthing dinner parties! Is it potluck, if so, I'll bring the placenta!

BYOP

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:23 pm 
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I may do some weird stuff, but I stop at placenta eating and breast milk cheese.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:24 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
coldandsleepy wrote:
Moon wrote:
Dude, yes. Gotta love birthing dinner parties! Is it potluck, if so, I'll bring the placenta!


Explaining once and for all where vegans get their iron!


We don't get it from eating delicious babies? (Maybe the real reason I don't want to have kids is because I'm afraid I'll eat them.)


Ounce for ounce, placenta has more iron. But babies are valuable sources of proteins and healthy fats.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:27 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:

Ounce for ounce, placenta has more iron. But babies are valuable sources of proteins and healthy fats.


And souls. They're an excellent source of souls.

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