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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:07 am 
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pixel wrote:
The system/society that devalues women's choices whatever they are is the enemy. Arguing over who deserves what label seems about as productive as trying to improve the lot of fat women by denigrating skinny women, or saying that people who are vegan for health reasons aren't vegan.

thank you for saying this. i don't have a perspective to share on being childless, as i'm not, but did recently feel a few well-placed kicks to my asparagus about how some people's reasons for going vegan aren't good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:17 am 
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rhelune wrote:
I don't see how it can be interpreted as an attack on Tofulish. I asked her if she's aware that it's offensive, and explained why it is. I apologize if I sounded harsh. (Actually, after repeated usage of the word I was wondering if she was trying to sound condescending.)

linanil wrote:
Ha, childfree purity. I don't think it is very feminist to say that people that leave the option open a 'problem'.


I never called that a problem. I called such people fencesitters, and I didn't mean anything offensive. People said themselves that they were "on the fence". I apologize for using an offensive term.

Moon wrote:
And being a part of the childfree community can be for a number of reasons, just as some people will identify as vegan for health or religious reasons. It's crummy if you're vegan for animal rights reasons and then apparently drop it, just as I'm sure the likeminded childfree community members would dislike it if someone who was childfree for moral reasons dropped it. But if you are childfree because you, say, had terrible childhood experiences, you might change your mind after having therapy.


I'm pretty sure people on this forum know very well that veganism is not only about food.

People are members of childfree community because they are childfree i.e. they have decided to never have children.

People who want to have children but choose not to because they have bad genes, wouldn't be good parents, or are in a relationship with someone who doesn't want children, are called "childless by choice". If circumstances somehow changed they might end up having a child. Those who wanted to have children, but never met the right partner are "childless by circumstance".

If you want to draw a parallel with veganism, then childless by choice people are like those who avoid animal products because, where they live, animal products cause foodborne illness. Childless by circumstance are like those who can't afford animal products. A person who doesn't have children for a few decades, but then goes on to have a child, is like "vegan before dinnertime".

Of course, if I suffer and injury like Phineas Gage I might decide to have a child. But, it wouldn't be me any more. And, if I do suffer such injury and decide to have a child, it's for the best that I'm sterile. That is actually an argument for taking childfree people seriously and sterilizing them on demand.

Some people who do consider themselves childfree (by definition) might change their minds in the future. It's all right for them to change their minds. But, then they should say "Well, I guess I wasn't childfree in the first place" and not "I used to be happily childfree, then I changed my mind and my child is the best thing that ever happened to me."


I really don't think labels are helpful or trying to put people in a box. If I say I'm on the fence, I say it because I'm not wholly against having children, but I'd have to have a partner that really, really wants them and would take a very active role in their lives. There are different degrees to which people may be childfree, like they knew from birth they didn't want children. Others, like myself who could've gone either way depending on the situation but lean towards not having children, are still childfree.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:19 am 
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This thread has turned into a discussion of semantics and that's no longer helpful to anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:43 am 
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All right, back to comics:

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:52 am 
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paprikapapaya wrote:
This thread has turned into a discussion of semantics and that's no longer helpful to anyone.


Truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:54 am 
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lillianp wrote:
paprikapapaya wrote:
This thread has turned into a discussion of semantics and that's no longer helpful to anyone.


Truth.


Agreed. (This is why we can't have nice things!)

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:03 am 
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I come to this thread for the comics.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:07 am 
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rhelune wrote:
All right, back to comics:

Image


LOL.

Yes, lets all go with this: there are lots of valid reasons to be childfree, or vegan. Or shave your head or wear toesocks. They're all things people can be extremely judgemental about when it's none of their business.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:46 am 
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paprikapapaya wrote:
This thread has turned into a discussion of semantics and that's no longer helpful to anyone.


Actually, I think it is revealing. These communities do exist. Not wanting to acknowledge them doesn't make them go away.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:47 am 
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But, I also like comics!


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:48 am 
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Who's not wanting to acknowledge they exist? Arguing over who can use the term "childfree", circularly, over several pages, is not helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:50 am 
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Yes and saying a group of people have claimed 'childfree' for themselves is ridiculous and thus can only be used in specific terms that they have set is also ridiculous. It is like if a group of vegans came around and said only people who bathed in their own urine could claim to be vegan or more realistically, grew all their own food.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:52 am 
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Like I said, I think it is revealing. So, that is helpful to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:01 pm 
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This blogger explains it better than I ever could:
http://hikinghumanist.com/2011/11/26/de ... childfree/


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:09 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:37 pm 
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I think, in the US at least, doctors are afraid of being sued later on for malpractice which is why they are wary to do sterilization for women. It also has to do with the fact that the person you are at 20 is definitely not the person that you are at 30. That doesn't mean that at 20 if you don't want kids, then at 30 you will want them but you may have different perspectives and IF you do happen to change your mind, then there is no going back. Obviously you can look into adoption but then again, that isn't an easy path. I think though that it a 20 year old wants a tubal ligation, then go for it.

I don't think I ever thought about NOT having children until I was about 24 or so where I worked with a guy who was married without kids. I don't know if I had known anyone prior to that who didn't have kids. Once I realized that it happens and it seemed like a good thing for them, then that is when I more or less knew I didn't want kids.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:58 pm 
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In the US at least it is possible to get sterilized. Here, a person can request sterilization when she is 35yo, but "all such requests are denied by the commision" says my gynaecologist. Of course I do plan to get sterilized abroad when I save enough money, but I don't see this in my near future.

Abortion is technically legal for 10 weeks (calculated from the last period), so in case of pregnancy I would have to act very quickly, but my gynaecologist refuses to discuss an action plan in case I do get pregnant.

I can't afford a private gynaecologist, so I'm stuck with this one, who works in the interest of the state, not in the interest of his patients. I wouldn't be surprised if he's paid by the number of new consumers his patients produce. He makes me come every month to get a prescription for one package of the pills, and wants to change my therapy to minipills which have a greater failure rate (I don't smoke, my blood coagulation factors are OK, I'm under 35yo).

Before every surgery the patient must sign an informed consent. Without it, nobody will do any surgery for the fear of being sued.

I never wanted to have children. When I was a minor, I told everyone I'd get sterilized when I'm 18. I had no idea that my body is owned by the state and not by me. Avoiding pregnancy and childbirth feels like being forced to walk through a minefield.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:07 pm 
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And by prescription I mean: he prescribes the pills, but I have to pay the full price for them. Without his prescription I can't buy them.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:16 pm 
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The 50 Most Awkward Pregnancy Portraits Ever:
http://worldwideinterweb.com/photos/ite ... -ever.html


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:21 pm 
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rhelune wrote:
Image


No, this is actually straight-up unfunny. I'm not particularly offended, but could you maybe find strips that have actual jokes?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:25 pm 
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While I find some particular aspects of this article problematic (notably the way the author takes pains to describe her physical appearance at the beginning), the gist is spot on about the experience of being over 35, single, and without kids:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sav ... e-thinking

"I know what you're thinking.
I can read it on your face... the distracted smile, the unconvincing nod, the slightly furrowed brow...
You're trying to figure out what's wrong with me. Or at the very least, what I'm doing wrong. The questions you ask yourself at the moment you've discovered I'm single and childless is: "Why is this woman still single and childless? What's wrong with her?"

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:36 pm 
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This thread went downhill really fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:37 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
This thread went downhill really fast.


Yeah. It was better without the cartoons.

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