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 Post subject: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:03 am 
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I did a search but I didn't see a general topic about this, just ones asking for specific advice. I get the sense that a lot of PPKers are currently, or have been expats and I feel like there are certain joys and frustrations that are unique to the expat experience, so I thought it might be nice to have a thread where we can share those experiences.

I'm kind of reluctant 2x expat. I'm not someone who really has wanderlust; I am in fact somewhat of a nester, but I still end up uprooting myself twice. I moved from the US to the Netherlands in 1994 with the intention of staying for one or two years (for citizenship stuff), and then for a number of reasons ended up staying almost 20 years. It took a while but NL actually felt like home (especially Amsterdam) and I imagined myself staying there for good. Then I fell in love with a Flemish guy, and took the plunge this year and uprooted myself again to move to Belgium. Now I know this isn't a huge cultural leap - not like going from say NL to Korea, or even, say, Spain would be - but I will admit that for someone who's not great with change, it's quite an adjustment. Even though I speak the language, even though NL and Flanders share a history and a lot of cultural baggage, I'm realizing there are enough differences to keep me from really feeling I can just relax and be at my ease here. I love my boyfriend and I love my living arrangement, and I'm hoping that once I find work (if I can find work - eep!) and have a regular routine I'll feel more at home but for the moment I'm feeling that familiar isolation I felt when I first moved to the Netherlands; It's not an isolation born of loneliness (I'm not quickly lonely) but of feeling like the outsider who doesn't quite get how things work here, who speaks the language but has trouble understanding the dialect and uses weird expressions that they don't use here, who doesn't even seem to know how to ask the right questions.

I'm not really complaining. I'm happy with where I am in my life, and I realize even having the opportunity to do this is incredibly privileged. (And I also realize that how I as a US/Dutch citizen get treated here is a LOT better than the experience of people who come here from other areas of the world.) But it does take a certain amount of energy to navigate everyday life as an "outsider" and having to find my way again.

Does anyone else ever feel this way? Or are you more likely to feel energized/exhilarated by change and new experiences? Or both? Do you miss home (where ever that may be)? Do you think you could ever move back? Or are you now too much of two (or three or four) places to even know where home is? I'd love to hear how other people feel about being expats.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:21 am 
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Yay, expats!
I'm an American living in Vienna for the last 5 years and relate so much to a lot of the things you wrote, lepelaar. Especially about acknowledging what a great opportunity this is but still always feeling like an outsider and finding the energy/guts to navigate everyday stuff. I don't necessarily miss home or even have a certain place that I think of as home but I miss feeling comfortable in my surroundings. I do love new experiences and travel but sometimes I just want buying a new pillow or getting a picture framed to be a simple process! I usually either feel like a toddler or someone who suffers from selective amnesia and now has to re-learn how to do adult things. And I still don't speak great german so that doesn't help.


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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:49 am 
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inceptisol wrote:
I don't necessarily miss home or even have a certain place that I think of as home but I miss feeling comfortable in my surroundings. I do love new experiences and travel but sometimes I just want buying a new pillow or getting a picture framed to be a simple process! I usually either feel like a toddler or someone who suffers from selective amnesia and now has to re-learn how to do adult things.


Yes! This! I was actually finally comfortable like that in Amsterdam, felt like I knew how to navigate everyday things, and now I feel like I'm having to relearn them. Funny thing is, now when I'm back in the US, I don't really feel at home there anymore either. (Although I know how to navigate the waters... it's just not really home anymore.) Oddly, the places I've felt the most at home in the last years have been Toronto and Melbourne. Especially Toronto. Maybe Canada and Australia are the perfect cultural compromises between Europe and the US? (Lard, I hope I'm not insulting any Canadians or Australians by saying that.)

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:10 am 
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i could write a lot (but will spare you).
years in Japan and then years in Brazil and now several months back in the US have taught me a few uncomfortable truths.
1- the places change, and you might not be able to go back. the water in the river is not the same as when you were there.
2- you change. i am back in the US and i've told several friends, after i am done here, i am going home to Brazil and don't plan to ever come back here. This is not where i belong anymore. I felt it strongly 7 years ago when I left again, and it's even stronger today.
3- your attitude as an expat determines your experience as an expat. i do a lot of expat support in Brazil (and did in Japan) and the experiences people have are a direct result of the attitudes they bring. if you're comparing things with home, you will be homesick. if you are just there for the experience, you will have a better time.
4- learning about the process of homesickness and culture shock, EVEN if the cultures/languages are similar, is important. Culture shock is like grieving. almost everyone gets it and almost everyone gets it differently. be prepared. find a strategy for dealing with it, even if it's just mindfulness.
5- sometimes being the foreigner really forking sucks. i can (at some theoretical time in the future) speak portuguese perfectly, have a Brazilian passport, and dress like my peers but i will never be one of them. some people are douchebags sometimes and will hate you for where you come from (as others will hate you for your color, sexual preference, etc etc). i've had some really unpleasant experiences and they don't get easier. then i think about what my expat friends of color went through in japan and i shut up. it may be helpful to make a list of what you like about where you live and when you're feeling really shitty because someone said something hurtful to you, get out that list.
6- i do find that keeping up on US stuff makes me feel a lot better. our fair forum, FB, and some of my favorite podcasts and streaming radio have made my Brazil expat experience really different from Japan, where I felt completely isolated and actually lost some of my language and cultural knowledge.
7- all that other crepe that everyone says about trying to network and participate to meet people- clubs, church, vegetarian groups, etc etc. it's a PITA but it's true, if you don't reach out you can't connect with people.

another thing to remember is that the first year, i think, is going to be a roller coaster. i think even if it's "just australia" (i am sooo kidding) or a culture that's really not so different from your own, it's not yours. I am looking forward to going home to Brazil but I still get teary-eyed every time I land in the US and I see the flag and the customs guy says "welcome home".

ETA: i realize not much of this directly responds to your experience/question but in the spirit of generally "sharing thoughts".....

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Last edited by torque on Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:12 am 
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I moved to Edinburgh *because* it felt like home. I never felt comfortable in TX (or really any part of the US where I'd lived), whereas I felt instantly comfortable in Edinburgh. Having traveled a bit more, I recognise that there are a few places in the US where I'd probably feel comfortable (NYC, DC, probably other big cities I haven't yet visited), but I have no intention of living anywhere other than Edinburgh.

It wasn't a huge cultural shift going from the US to the UK, though there are some obvious differences. Shared language was obviously helpful - I only had to get used to the accents and a few unfamiliar words/usages rather than the entire language. I rarely feel (or am made to feel) like an outsider, especially since I started working (as opposed to when I was in uni). Every once in a while, someone here will point out something that I've said that's particularly American, or someone in the US will point out something that's particularly British/Scottish, but not in an intentionally alienating way.

I'm very much a homebody, and I'm not a huge fan of travel and new experiences (for the most part). Everyone thinks moving to Edinburgh was some big adventure and I was taken out of my comfort zone, blah blah blah, but in reality, apart from a few issues that would probably happen with any big move, Edinburgh *is* my comfort zone. I feel like more of an outsider in Dallas than I ever have here. So I guess maybe my ex-pat experience is a bit different from most people's.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:42 am 
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I'm kind of a boring case, but I'm a Canadian who's lived in the US for the past 5 years. My observation is that the feelings you're describing can be felt pretty much anywhere, whether it's a new city in the same country, or a completely different side of the world. Personally, I find that I just feel unsettled until I've had a chance to get to know a place. I moved from San Francisco to Portland this January, and while I already had some friends and had (well, have) a boyfriend here, (not to mention that I obviously speak the language, and I had/have a job, though it's a work-from-home gig and not anything that has me at an office) my first few months felt, well, just kind of strange. Now that I know my way around town, have a few more friends, have developed some favorite coffee shops and places to eat and drink, I feel much more at home. I still don't really understand the US health insurance system, and it is strange to be sort of alienated in that I can't vote here (I'm a permanent resident, not a citizen), but for the most part, I now feel more at home in the US than I do in Canada.

I note that I felt very much the same way when I moved to Montreal from my hometown of Edmonton when I was 18. Though it was in the same country, it was thousands of kms away, and there was a language difference. I think adjusting to Montreal and feeling like it was home actually took me a lot longer than feeling at home in SF or Portland.

I don't know. All of that is probably not very useful, except that it probably confirms what you already suspect, which is that once you find a job/routine in your new place, it will probably start to feel more like home.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:51 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
I still don't really understand the US health insurance system

i think this statement probably earns you free citizenship.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:56 am 
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torque wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
I still don't really understand the US health insurance system

i think this statement probably earns you free citizenship.


Does anyone really understand this system?

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:01 am 
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Also boring Canada -> US case here! I've lived here for six years now, and I'm quite happy to be here. Canada is beautiful sure, but it never felt quite right. A lot of people act like it's so odd I'd leave 'the amazing Canada' to come to 'evil, downtrodden upon USofA' but I really prefer it here!

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:26 am 
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kfad wrote:
torque wrote:
jordanpattern wrote:
I still don't really understand the US health insurance system

i think this statement probably earns you free citizenship.


Does anyone really understand this system?

There's a system?

Anyway, I'm not an expat (yet) but I'm married to one, and we're hoping to move to the UK within the next year, so I'll be following this thread with interest.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:37 am 
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All the Canadians reminded me that technically I'm an expatriate too. I am not a citizen of the country I live in. Another case of moving to neighbouring country, already speaking the language, most people I meet don't realise I'm not from here blah blah. Also I'm culturally orphaned. I'm neither this nor that.


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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:42 am 
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Also slightly boring here - I'm originally from the US, and now I'm in Canada. From right next to the border on one side, and pretty much flopped right onto the other side (although I moved from an American island to a Canadian island, and then another, so maybe not so much flopping). Anyway, I'm a dual-citizen, but I spent my first 19 years in the US, and the rest here. Culturally speaking, it's not too, too different, but it actually is a better fit for me where it is different.

We're actually still hoping to move to Asia (most likely South Korea) at some point, which would make the whole family expats. Not yet though.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:57 am 
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I don't really consider myself an expat since I moved here from Canada when I was 8. The culture shock and adaptations you go through as a child are obviously very different than those experienced by an adult. My birthday was missed at school because my Canadian records came down saying 9/3 for March 9th and my teacher assumed my birthday had been in September, before I arrived. And I was made fun of on the playground for referring to my mother as my mum, so I switched to mom. Assimilation complete.

As much as I love Vancouver I have to admit that moving back to the motherland as an adult would be a much bigger adjustment than moving away was. I don't know how to be an adult there... things like establishing credit and filing taxes and insuring my car. I'd figure it out but even with zero language barrier it would take awhile before everything was easy again.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:27 pm 
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I don't really think I'm an expat, since I guess I plan to return to my birth country (Australia), but most of the things resonate in one way or another. every culture has its own social quirks and customs that get so hard to navigate. I'm pretty massively opposed to hanging out with "expat meetup" people, because that is usually horribly insular in its own ways..but at some point it's refreshing. I remember in Canada being surprised how different it was from what I'd expected. and during the 2010 winter games, it was fun to see some Australians (similarly, but conversely, seeing Australians when an Australian won the Tour de France was pretty gross).

I'm about to fling myself into another culture. I'm wary, and I'm expecting isolation and massively hard times (as it'll be coming into winter there. and my favourite solitary activity (cycling) is far less exciting in the depths of winter!). but I think I'm ready.

I remember when I first moved to Canada, and one day just being SO ANGRY that light switches were upside down. something that should take NO ENERGY to process suddenly required careful consideration (especially in the kitchen where there were two switches (one for fan, one for light) so often only one would be on: which is the correct switch to make them both off?)

I've moved a lot as a kid though, so a certain shape of hardship/loneliness is familiar to me. and apparently these days I'm relatively chatty, so meeting new people is easier than ever. but making (and leaving) *friends* is still an elusive art.

lepelaar wrote:
Maybe Canada and Australia are the perfect cultural compromises between Europe and the US? (Lard, I hope I'm not insulting any Canadians or Australians by saying that.)

ha :) perhaps not insulting, but it's a stretch. as much as anything, "US culture" or "European culture" is such a wide spectrum that I suppose you can place almost any culture along the gradient somewhere

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:05 pm 
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I lived in the UK for six months and would have stayed longer had my immigration situation allowed me to! I also spent just under two years living in Hong Kong, returning extremely homesick and happy to have left.

Although I'm quite settled back in the US now, I wouldn't completely rule out living abroad again. I have a pretty short list of places I would move to. Ultimately I would love to get dual US-Swedish citizenship but unfortunately Swedish immigration laws (at least insofar as they apply to familial ancestry) are not as encompassing as most other EU countries and I don't know if they will ever change the laws in my lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I have a pretty short list of places I would move to.

what are those places? I'm currently new-home-country shopping

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:55 pm 
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I've lived in Holland and in Copenhagen, Denmark but I always knew when I'd return to Berlin. I definitely felt more "at home" in Copenhagen than in Holland even though I was very mentally ill then and I don't speak Danish (and I do speak Dutch). I think for me it mostly had to do with living in a city. I just couldn't adjust to country-living. I felt very alone in Holland and I felt most people there were pretty narrow-minded or even racist. I met no "alternative" people at all.

My boyfriend moved to Berlin 2 1/2 years ago to be with me. We're both at university and want to finish our B.A.'s here but afterwards it's not clear. Again I realized how much little it has to do with actual space but with the place when I think about where I could and couldn't move. We sometimes talk of living in Norway (I speak Norwegian), Sweden, Scotland or somewhere along those lines and I love the idea. But then he says he really wants to move back into his hometown in the North of Germany which is tiiiny and I can't imagine it at all. I really dislike the place and everytime I imagine myself up there I get miserable. Denmark isn't too far away and I'd be cool with living in Denmark instead but somehow he's not feeling that either.

Basically, I feel a lot more at home in places far away from here culturally than I feel in most other parts of Germany. I love Berlin but I can't really see myself living anywhere else in Germany for a long period of time. And I think a lot of the times you can tell pretty early how you "click" with a place. I knew I'd be okay in London the first time I went there. Knew I'd hate Canterbury, would be okay in Oxford. I could live in Utrecht or Rotterdam but I'm not a big Amsterdam fan. Reyjavík, Malmö, Trondheim - all felt right at home there.

That all said, when I left the tiny town in Holland which I disliked so much and came back to Berlin... I was so miserable. I hated everything that was German and missed the Dutch language, food, atmosphere. It was really weird for me. I took me a few months to stop hating everything German.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:16 pm 
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I was born in Kenya, and spent from 6 to 16 in Vienna. I moved to the US from Austria when I was 16 and spent most of my 20s studying and working in Europe and also doing some work in Asia. I've been back in the US since 2001 and since having L, I really wish I could just move back to Europe. I loved growing up in Austria, and could see almost anywhere in Europe providing a great life for L - life for kids in the US just seems so weirdly restricted - with so much fear and pressure on parents to not to leave kids alone to explore as much etc. I feel like I was so independent as a kid, and that was very empowering. Here it feels like teens are eternally asking to be dropped off at the mall to hang out - so you need an adult to take you places and then you spend hours hanging out in a neon-lit, sanitized space, eating greasy food and looking at stuff to buy. Plus I miss Europe for being incredibly beautiful as well - I love the division between the country and the city. In the North East US it all just bleeds into endless suburbia.

I am not an expat - I am an American, but I definitely have a really deep longing to move back.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:06 pm 
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joshua wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
I have a pretty short list of places I would move to.

what are those places? I'm currently new-home-country shopping


Well, I guess the only one right now is Sweden, but I'd be willing to consider other places if an opportunity arose. Which it likely wouldn't!

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:00 am 
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I have been thinking about this for awhile, largely as a consequence of other threads I'm active in (such as the "Women who don't want kids" thread). For me, I think it comes down to the fact that I feel like an outsider pretty much everywhere since my life choices/story don't match the standard cultural narrative. That creates a sort of dissonance, or distance, and I find that I'd rather be living elsewhere, where being the outsider pretty much precludes any cultural expectations, at all, than live in the place where I grew up and am more sensitive to that difference. Maybe it would be different now, but when I was a (pre)teen, I loved hopping onto a plane and going to spend the summers with my dad in Poland because I was free to stay in my introverted bubble, not part of anyone's expectations or etc.

At the same time, I grew up in a very international family. Until I was 15, 2 continents was the norm. After that, 3 continents was. So the mixing of ideas and perspectives (and stories! -- nevermind different approaches to bureaucracy or whatever) is _part_ of me in the same way that staying in one place isn't. I don't know what it's like to be tied to a place, and struggle to understand that feeling in others. The closest I came was when I lived in Aarhus, Dk, and would weep whenever I left the area, I was so attached to the see and the woods and the way the sun crossed the sky.

n the past 10 years, I've moved every 1-2 years, often between countries, though sometimes only within them, and I finally find myself starting to put down roots. I live in the north of NL now. I've struggled the most to feel "at home" here (probably of anywhere I've ever lived), but had the realization a few weeks ago that my contract is over in 19 months, and then I don't know where I will go. I finally feel at home here, and it is ... bittersweet (forking sad!) to think of leaving a place which is suddenly so sweet to me.

At first, I used to love being AWAY from the US and its mainstream culture/lack of respective for my very social democratic ideals. The past few years, I've been able to enjoy going back, but I think because I know it's only for the short term. I've tried to imagine going back (to a research institute in Austin TX or near Seattle) and can almost manage it. I am tired of living in an English bubble. I understand languages really fast, but it takes me ages to be comfortable to speak, and I hate the invisible barrier that creates. (It was better in north India, where people were so surprised I could speak any HIndi at all that I quickly became conversant and then fluent. Siiiiiiigh.) So I've been thinking of Oz/NZ, Canada, Ireland or Scandinavia. I don't know. But I am expecting to be living 'elsewhere' for awhile, because that works for me. I like living somewhere where "taking care of each other" isn't a counterculture movement, but something ingrained in mainstream policies and culture.

re: bureaucracy and etc. YES. Wow, so many people told me NL was just like Dk when I moved here, and NO. Really, really, seriously no. Even learning which groceries stores carried what, and how to find items in a grocery store, took me months to figure out. Civil registration would have been a disaster if another EU phd hadn't walked me from building to building (in Dk, there were only 2 places to go, but I got an escort from the university and "personal invitation" to do so, and that made life easy. Here, no one apart from that phd seemed to know what I needed to do, or where to do it, and that made registration life HELL). Agreed 100000% with the others who have said it's your attitude and that even superficially similar places can be bizarre (and superficially dissimilar places, exactly like home).


eta: I was born in the US, have 2x citizenship with another EU country whose language I often understand but definitely don't speak, and grew up more "Indian" than "American" thanks to peculiarities of my parents' backgrounds and our focus on yoga, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:06 am 
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When people ask "So where are you from?" I never know how to answer, so I ask them questions in return (Do you mean my residence? Where I pay taxes? My passport? Where I was born/mostly grew up? .....None of those answers are easy, either, since I have tax responsibilities in multiple countries, multiple passports and residencies (ha!) and grew up on two continents. I'd rather answer EARTH and get a forking UN passport, but no one likes that as an answer, either.)

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:20 am 
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lutin wrote:
For me, I think it comes down to the fact that I feel like an outsider pretty much everywhere since my life choices/story don't match the standard cultural narrative. That creates a sort of dissonance, or distance, and I find that I'd rather be living elsewhere, where being the outsider pretty much precludes any cultural expectations, at all, than live in the place where I grew up and am more sensitive to that difference. Maybe it would be different now, but when I was a (pre)teen, I loved hopping onto a plane and going to spend the summers with my dad in Poland because I was free to stay in my introverted bubble, not part of anyone's expectations or etc.

I guess you might have found it by now if it were going to happen (or maybe not!), but for me it took a long time in my life to feel like I could fit in. or to find ways to feel accepted. not always in whole by one single person (as in, you'd have different friends for different needs), but eventually in the last couple of years, I've found people in places that accept me entirely. and you know that I'm a pretty odd dude in a lot of ways (and I'm way more odd in a bunch of ways that you don't know too!). the tragedy of that is that I don't feel at home in the places those people are (i.e. I can't ever find myself calling PDX home, despite making some really forking great connections here). that's heartbreaking.

I think there's certainly a balance that I'm starting to explore there though: I love (LOVE) exploring on my own. even tonight, just walking streets while it's still warm enough to do so. sitting and staring at the sky. no one else exists! but then later, I draw on my friend(s) to help me through a sincerely rough patch (ahaaa, it's still going on, but that's not a story for the public). and it's awesome to have both sides of that.

I hope you have some of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:26 am 
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YES. Finding people you can be at home with is super important. The Dutch PPKers nurture one part of me, my gesture guys (and other research-types) another, and the Amma/yoga people a third. It is _good_ and important to have people. I love quality alone time, but that's very different from feeling isolated. I definitely felt isolated when I moved to Groningen (in part because I had friends here, but all to the West! Not actually here here!), and I'm so happy that's different now.

But yes, finding a place in which you feel home, and also people you feel at home with, is a great & interesting challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:23 am 
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I'm an Italian living in Germany, and have done so for the last 7 years. I feel by now totally at home here, so much that when I go visit my family in my hometown everything seems so foreign. After 2 years being in Germany I had to go back to Italy for work for 1.5 years and although I was in my hometown with family and friends around, it was so hard to adjust. It seems there is a "returning expat" syndrome as well, where the place you called home suddenly feels more foreign than the place you were a foreigner in.

However I hadn't felt at home in Italy for a while before moving to Germany, and I think it's because I had left my hometown twice for a year each, once to the US and once to New Zealand, and each time I gained so much perspective and a more open mind. When I talk to my friends how have always lived in Italy, for them it's perfectly normal and all the things that drive me nuts (bureaucracy, mess, dirt, etc) are invisible to them and they can't imagine living anywhere else than there. For me each time I came back I couldn't wait to leave again and get out of that place.
Now I enjoy visiting as a vacation, because I am perfectly integrated here. I speak German although not yet perfectly fluently and the culture isn't so different other than being much more orderly and organized. It might have been harder when I first moved, but luckily I met friends and a boyfriend in the first week of being here and that made all the difference in adapting, I never even got the chance to be homesick.

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 Post subject: Re: Expat PPKers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:04 am 
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I feel I am a bit of an expat myself despite being a citizen here (U.K.) since birth ... (father born here) ... when moving here from America (North America, Canada) I thought, what is the fuss? Same language, same woman on the money & the stamps. Ha! England is nothing like Canada ... it is noisy, crowded, hideously costly with the class structure still firmly in place.

My husband (a public school boy) said that due to my having a Canadian (not U.K. regional) accent no one can judge me. How nice for me (eyes rolling) ...

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