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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:01 am 
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choirqueer wrote:
Uhhh wow, so I'm watching S2 now, most of which I haven't seen in a very long time, and I just watched Go Fish. What the incredible fork? I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the "challenges your feminism" thread but I figure it will make more sense in context to people who have actually seen the show.

(cut for sexual violence triggers)
Spoiler: show
Buffy makes a rape joke? With herself getting raped, as the punchline? While she's been thrown in a pool to be raped by fish monsters? And then she and Xander watch, expressionlessly, as the swim coach gets raped as "punishment" for throwing her to the fish monster rapists, and she makes a joke about how much they must "really love" their swim coach? What the hell? Why are there rape jokes in Buffy? Did I not notice this before or did I just, like, block it out? Why is rape even being used as a plot device? This is really bugging me, I guess because I like to think of this show as being at least slightly better on the feminism scale than the majority of other things out there, and even though obviously it isn't always, I like to think of it as at least being above the level of rape jokes.


I kinda want to just blissfully forget that episode ever happened but I think that would be bad-feminist of me.

Gross, I don't remember that, but I also rarely watch that ep when I'm re-watching the series. Not that the show is by any means a perfect feminist text (hello, xander harris!), but even so that is pretty disappointing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:09 am 
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elouise wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
Uhhh wow, so I'm watching S2 now, most of which I haven't seen in a very long time, and I just watched Go Fish. What the incredible fork? I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the "challenges your feminism" thread but I figure it will make more sense in context to people who have actually seen the show.

(cut for sexual violence triggers)
Spoiler: show
Buffy makes a rape joke? With herself getting raped, as the punchline? While she's been thrown in a pool to be raped by fish monsters? And then she and Xander watch, expressionlessly, as the swim coach gets raped as "punishment" for throwing her to the fish monster rapists, and she makes a joke about how much they must "really love" their swim coach? What the hell? Why are there rape jokes in Buffy? Did I not notice this before or did I just, like, block it out? Why is rape even being used as a plot device? This is really bugging me, I guess because I like to think of this show as being at least slightly better on the feminism scale than the majority of other things out there, and even though obviously it isn't always, I like to think of it as at least being above the level of rape jokes.


I kinda want to just blissfully forget that episode ever happened but I think that would be bad-feminist of me.

Gross, I don't remember that at all, but I also rarely watch that ep when I'm re-watching the series. Not that the show is by any means a perfect feminist text (hello, xander harris!), but even so that is pretty disappointing.


Yeah, I honestly didn't even remember it, which is really strange because I don't tend to forget stuff like that. I would have skipped it if I had remembered it was like that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:16 am 
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choirqueer wrote:
Uhhh wow, so I'm watching S2 now, most of which I haven't seen in a very long time, and I just watched Go Fish. What the incredible fork? I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the "challenges your feminism" thread but I figure it will make more sense in context to people who have actually seen the show.

(cut for sexual violence triggers)
Spoiler: show
Buffy makes a rape joke? With herself getting raped, as the punchline? While she's been thrown in a pool to be raped by fish monsters? And then she and Xander watch, expressionlessly, as the swim coach gets raped as "punishment" for throwing her to the fish monster rapists, and she makes a joke about how much they must "really love" their swim coach? What the hell? Why are there rape jokes in Buffy? Did I not notice this before or did I just, like, block it out? Why is rape even being used as a plot device? This is really bugging me, I guess because I like to think of this show as being at least slightly better on the feminism scale than the majority of other things out there, and even though obviously it isn't always, I like to think of it as at least being above the level of rape jokes.


I kinda want to just blissfully forget that episode ever happened but I think that would be bad-feminist of me.

Whoa, I don't remember that at all! I guess I blocked it out too. The only thing that has ever made me super uncomfortable was when Spike was going to rape Buffy and then their whole relationship on the show after that.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:27 am 
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I remember that fish episode and remember being confused about what they were alluding to with all that, I must have been young the first time I saw it. But that wasn't even their first instance of male rape references, was it? When the teacher becomes a bug and then is going to mate with Xander and rip his head off, drugging him and seducing him - totally cringeworthy.

The Spike almost raping Buffy episode is the worst because of how graphic it got. I've only seen it once and never again. Almost ruined the rest of the series for me. And to find out the actor who played Spike regretted doing the episode made it even worse. They really miss the feminist mark sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Yeah, I am a huge fan of Joss Whedon, but he really is not that good of a feminist. And do you know, I re-watched Go Fish recently and had the same slightly appalled reaction to that scene. It was jarring to think that I didn't see the problem with it when I was younger (and I must have seen it a whole bunch of times, I used to watch season 2 over and over).


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:23 am 
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choirqueer wrote:
elouise wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
Uhhh wow, so I'm watching S2 now, most of which I haven't seen in a very long time, and I just watched Go Fish. What the incredible fork? I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the "challenges your feminism" thread but I figure it will make more sense in context to people who have actually seen the show.

(cut for sexual violence triggers)
Spoiler: show
Buffy makes a rape joke? With herself getting raped, as the punchline? While she's been thrown in a pool to be raped by fish monsters? And then she and Xander watch, expressionlessly, as the swim coach gets raped as "punishment" for throwing her to the fish monster rapists, and she makes a joke about how much they must "really love" their swim coach? What the hell? Why are there rape jokes in Buffy? Did I not notice this before or did I just, like, block it out? Why is rape even being used as a plot device? This is really bugging me, I guess because I like to think of this show as being at least slightly better on the feminism scale than the majority of other things out there, and even though obviously it isn't always, I like to think of it as at least being above the level of rape jokes.


I kinda want to just blissfully forget that episode ever happened but I think that would be bad-feminist of me.

Gross, I don't remember that at all, but I also rarely watch that ep when I'm re-watching the series. Not that the show is by any means a perfect feminist text (hello, xander harris!), but even so that is pretty disappointing.


Yeah, I honestly didn't even remember it, which is really strange because I don't tend to forget stuff like that. I would have skipped it if I had remembered it was like that.

I think they were banking on ambiguity with the coach line. I had somehow missed the horrifying contextual implication. The presence of rape jokes at all by a self proclaimed feminist show is alarming.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:53 pm 
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I thought they were just eating people? Did my brain gloss over that? I never rewatch Go Fish unless i'm asleep.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:07 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I thought they were just eating people? Did my brain gloss over that? I never rewatch Go Fish unless i'm asleep.

The definitely got the implication that the fish boys were going to rape Buffy ("boy have other needs..."), but for some reason when the coach fell in I just assumed they ate him. Even though when I think about it now, I guess they did mean it the much grosser way. "Those boys sure love their coach." I mean. Ew, Joss. Ew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:35 pm 
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amandabear wrote:
mrsbadmouth wrote:
I thought they were just eating people? Did my brain gloss over that? I never rewatch Go Fish unless i'm asleep.

The definitely got the implication that the fish boys were going to rape Buffy ("boy have other needs..."), but for some reason when the coach fell in I just assumed they ate him. Even though when I think about it now, I guess they did mean it the much grosser way. "Those boys sure love their coach." I mean. Ew, Joss. Ew.


When she's in the pool she makes a joke about how "doing it with the entire swim team" would be bad for her reputation -- that's the part I was referring to about her making a rape joke about herself. Yeah, very very ew.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:42 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
amandabear wrote:
mrsbadmouth wrote:
I thought they were just eating people? Did my brain gloss over that? I never rewatch Go Fish unless i'm asleep.

The definitely got the implication that the fish boys were going to rape Buffy ("boy have other needs..."), but for some reason when the coach fell in I just assumed they ate him. Even though when I think about it now, I guess they did mean it the much grosser way. "Those boys sure love their coach." I mean. Ew, Joss. Ew.


When she's in the pool she makes a joke about how "doing it with the entire swim team" would be bad for her reputation -- that's the part I was referring to about her making a rape joke about herself. Yeah, very very ew.

Ah, okay. That does seems really flippant given the subject matter. That whole episode is kind of a car crash. Not one of Buffy's best by any means.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm 
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But now I'm watching season 3 which is my favorite and I want to hug it a million times.

Also: I just noticed this last night. Want to see something incredibly creepy? Watch the scene in Bad Girls where Buffy and Xander are talking during a test and Buffy asks Xander about why he twitches when she mentions Faith. It starts around minute 19. Watch Xander's face. But only do this if you know what happens to Xander in S7. (It won't spoil anything if you don't know, but it also just won't be apparent what it's not spoiling.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Choirqueer, along those same lines, check out Xander's costume at the Magic Box in All The Way. It's switched, but... when I did a rewatch of Buffy with my boyfriend last year, I was so surprised because I knew what was coming and I'd completely forgotten about that costume.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:52 pm 
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amandabear wrote:
Choirqueer, along those same lines, check out Xander's costume at the Magic Box in All The Way. It's switched, but... when I did a rewatch of Buffy with my boyfriend last year, I was so surprised because I knew what was coming and I'd completely forgotten about that costume.


Yeah! I knew about that one but I had never heard anyone mention the one in Bad Girls before (which could entirely just be coincidence, but it's just such a dramatic hand-face gesture that if it is a coincidence it's a pretty enormous one!)

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:28 pm 
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No, I see it! I don't know that it was intentional, but it's a hell of a coincidence if not.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:41 pm 
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117 Buffyverse Characters, Ranked From Worst To Best

I wish they didn't bother with the Angel only characters because I'm not a fan of that series but I love the Buffy list! Especially since Kennedy is the most loathed character in the series! I would have put Anya a lot higher though.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:03 pm 
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My initial reaction to even hearing Kennedy mentioned: "Ugh, Kennedy." So that's about right. A lot of the Potentials on the list were gone so quickly I actually kind of forgot who they were.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:17 pm 
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Meh, that list annoyed me! So off for me in so many places I can't even begin to make a list.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:24 pm 
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I didn't scrutinize the entire list but...Faith ranks above Buffy?
Now I'm kind of tempted to make my own list.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:32 pm 
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I feel like ranking the characters is a little dicey. Ranking episodes or seasons makes more sense to me, generally.

But Kennedy is still the worst.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:37 pm 
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I saw this episode ranking recently. I disagree with a lot of it, but, here it is. http://www.buzzfeed.com/louispeitzman/r ... ire-slayer

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:52 pm 
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Agreed. The character list is crepe.
The episode ranking list is slightly better.


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:04 pm 
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Ooooh, let's make our own ppk lists. Okay, y'all, what is your....

-Favorite season
-Favorite episode
-Favorite pairing
-Character you most identify with (i.e., the character who is most like you)
-Character you most want to bang

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:08 pm 
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I call bullshiitake on that list because Veruca should be right after Kennedy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:12 pm 
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-Favorite season
Season 2, I love Spike & Dru

-Favorite episode
Selfless aka Anya becomes a demon again. I think this ep had it all and when you go from Anya singing "Mrs" with such joy to her being stabbed in the stomach, you can feel it.

-Favorite pairing
It's hard to say. I like just about all of them besides Riley. Maybe Xander & Cordy because they are so funny together.

-Character you most identify with (i.e., the character who is most like you)
I guess Buffy! Life is hard.

-Character you most want to bang
If only he'd show up in a Buffy ep I'd pick Gun from Angel. Otherwise....I don't know maybe Giles? 1979 Spike or Principal Wood.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:35 pm 
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quark wrote:
-Favorite pairing

Giles and Jenny, forever and ever.


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