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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Mars wrote:
I always figured if human-Oz makes the decision before he turns, he's definitely responsible. Like the sex-in-the-cage thing. I think the shows writers meant for the murder thing to be 'okay' because of the same reason it's okay to kill a vamp. So he's not a murderer because Veruca is not a human. However I agree it does't feel so clean as that.


Well, it was established pretty strongly in the initial werewolf arc (and re-established when they do a werewolf arc in Angel, later on) that it's not okay to kill werewolves for sport, and that generally werewolves should be treated as human beings. In this case, Veruca clearly had the intention to kill while in human form, so the argument I could see here would be that Oz was acting to protect Willow from a human killer, so he's not a murderer because he was preventing a murder. But I think Veruca has to be treated as a human in considering this scenario from an ethical perspective, because we've established that werewolves are generally to be treated as humans and because the choices she made (to pursue Oz sexually, to distract Oz while she went to go find Willow, and then to attempt to kill Willow) were made while she was clearly still in human form, and from that it would follow logically that Oz also should be treated as human.

Whereas, it's been established that that vampires are not humans, even though they may look and act like the human who formerly inhabited their body, and that one aspect of their "badness" is that they're able to deceive humans into thinking they are still the person that they killed, which is the opposite of what we've learned about werewolves, who are still the same human as they were before they changed, just with a problem that has to be kept under control 3 nights out of the month.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Yeah true! I think though that they do definitely take advantage of Veruca not-being-totally-human though in that scene, to kill her. I think if there was a 100% human-all-the-time person who had the intention to kill Willow, they wouldn't have killed that character without murderous repercussions!

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:25 pm 
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I think they also justified it (in an unspoken way) by having Veruca identify more with the the wolf side than the human side, unlike Oz who still identified as human to whom this thing had happened. She'd given in to the demon.

Quote:
Oz: I'm only a wolf three nights a month.
Veruca: Or you're the wolf all the time and this human face is just your disguise.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:07 pm 
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I think they justified it by making Veruca the most unlikable character ever.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:00 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I think they justified it by making Veruca the most unlikable character ever.

That's all the justification I needed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:31 pm 
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heh, nevermind that her wolf outfit looked super lame. :P

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:03 pm 
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"You wanna take Tara out of here against her will? You gotta come through me." AND kleenex time. Again.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:02 am 
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Just made it through The Body. Gonna cry for a week.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:41 am 
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I sob like a baby every single time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:21 am 
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I just started rewatching Buffy from the first series; I'd forgotten how much I loved it! Especially the first episode intro bit with Darla totally playing up the traditional horror female role then turning it around.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:02 pm 
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i randomly picked up re-watching in the middle of season 4 (bleh boring riley things) but I forgot how great willow+tara art when they start out!! so cute!

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:26 pm 
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booberthefraggle wrote:
i randomly picked up re-watching in the middle of season 4 (bleh boring riley things) but I forgot how great willow+tara art when they start out!! so cute!


Haha I mostly like Riley! But I like W&T better <3 <3 <3

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:36 pm 
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bleh riley bleh

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:38 pm 
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booberthefraggle wrote:
bleh riley bleh


Haha yeah, I can see not liking him. I don't not like him but I can definitely see how someone would not like him if that makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:10 pm 
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booberthefraggle wrote:
bleh riley bleh

Riley is dry toast in human form.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:58 pm 
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amandabear wrote:
booberthefraggle wrote:
bleh riley bleh

Riley is dry toast in human form.

TRUTH!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Bleh. Riley. I don't even like him turning up in the comics again.

The only fun thing hat has ever come out of the Initiative is... Hostile 17. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:31 pm 
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The Initiative story bums me out because it could've been so cool! I thought Maggie Walsh was a pretty excellent villain and if she'd been the Big Bad of the season, perhaps with a plan to create a human/demon hybrid army (like Adam, but not as stupid), and we'd gotten a chance to delve into the murky ethical waters surrounding that sort of situation instead of just having her "son" go all Frankenstein's Monster and run around gutting little boys and playing with their innards for no real reason, it could've been pretty okay.

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 Post subject: Re: The Bronze (Let's Talk Buffy)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:53 pm 
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amandabear wrote:
The Initiative story bums me out because it could've been so cool! I thought Maggie Walsh was a pretty excellent villain and if she'd been the Big Bad of the season, perhaps with a plan to create a human/demon hybrid army (like Adam, but not as stupid), and we'd gotten a chance to delve into the murky ethical waters surrounding that sort of situation instead of just having her "son" go all Frankenstein's Monster and run around gutting little boys and playing with their innards for no real reason, it could've been pretty okay.

That would have been way better!

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