| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:50 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:20 am 
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:53 pm
Posts: 1564
Are we talking about unschooling or gender?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:04 am 
Grandfathered In
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Posts: 9171
Location: Seattle
Yes.

_________________
Did somebody say Keep on rockin?


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:45 am 
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3506
Location: Toronto
I don't want to derail this more than it's already been derailed, but I will say that I was "unschooled" (though it went by a slightly different name) until I was thirteen when I decided to enter regular school. I gradated at 16 on the honours list and am now finishing an Honours degree in Women's Studies. For me it worked perfectly to instill a love of learning and a burning curiousity in the world around me. For others it doesn't, but it often provides them what they need, because they probably aren't going to succeed in the traditional school system which, for the record, I find awful.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:59 am 
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:31 pm
Posts: 3890
Location: Graz, Austria
It has always bothered me that around here, apparently you can't give your child unisex names only. At least one name must refer to the child's gender. So I couldn't just call my (hypothetical) child Storm, or Storm Sidney or whatever - I would have to make it Storm Thomas or Storm Sidney Barbara or something. I keep doing these mind experiments, trying to come up with a name that is commonly used as a boy's or girl's name but that can really be used without gender reference.


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:19 am 
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1434
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Phoenix wrote:
It has always bothered me that around here, apparently you can't give your child unisex names only. At least one name must refer to the child's gender. So I couldn't just call my (hypothetical) child Storm, or Storm Sidney or whatever - I would have to make it Storm Thomas or Storm Sidney Barbara or something. I keep doing these mind experiments, trying to come up with a name that is commonly used as a boy's or girl's name but that can really be used for both genders.


There aren't any unisex names in German?? My name is Raphaelle - as far as the pronunciation is concerned, it's gender neutral, like all angel names. My mother is Camille, my grandmother is Claude, both unisex. Dominique and Pascal are other traditional, unisex names. And then there are nicknames: Sam (Samuel/Samantha), Alex or Sasha (Alexander/Alexandra), Max (Maximilian/Maxine), Steph (Stephan/Stephanie)... Would any of those work?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:25 am 
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:31 pm
Posts: 3890
Location: Graz, Austria
aelle wrote:
There aren't any unisex names in German?? My name is Raphaelle - as far as the pronunciation is concerned, it's gender neutral, like all angel names. My mother is Camille, my grandmother is Claude, both unisex. Dominique and Pascal are other traditional, unisex names. And then there are nicknames: Sam (Samuel/Samantha), Alex or Sasha (Alexander/Alexandra), Max (Maximilian/Maxine), Steph (Stephan/Stephanie)... Would any of those work?

Oh there are unisex names in German! Sascha, Kim, etc. I've never heard Max used for a girl, but I guess it would work (but I'm not sure you could actually use the short form in a birth certificate)...


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:56 am 
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 1324
Location: Montreal
no, that's not unschooling at all, and i know we've have this discussion/disagreement before. "unschooling" boils down to the idea that people are interested in learning and doing at their core, and that the process of "schooling" assigns arbitrary value to learning and removes the child's inherent motivation to learn. if you learn the material the way the teacher teaches you are assigned an A, if not, an F. enough years of that, and it becomes more and more difficult to learn for its own sake... your motivation becomes external and arbitrary. unschoolers can take a class, have a teacher, even take a test. but the idea is that they learn and apply something because they have internal motivation to do so, not because it's part of a school curriculum.

every traditionally schooled person has had this experience... taking a class and studying hard, getting an A, then forgetting everything the second the class is over. or having good intentions to learn spanish on your own and then struggling to stick to it. the idea behind unschooling is that children don't lose that internal motivation, and thus learn things at their own pace and in their own time.

as a school teacher myself, i see a great benefit to unschooling. not everyone has the skills or interest in academic learning, and we do a great disservice to those kids by forcing them through years and years of arbitrary academics (based strongly on the liberal arts) when they'd much rather be learning or doing things that our society tends not to value as highly... as a teacher, i am basically forced to force kids to learn within a certain framework, and yet, go sit with a bunch of kindergarteners for an hour, and you'll see that they are just bursting to learn all on their own.

now, some kids aren't going to "learn anything" by unschooling. i don't know why that is... maybe their environment isn't conducive to it. but equally, there are many more kids that aren't learning anything by being schooled. i don't necessarily think that the answer is unschooling for everybody, but i don't know that the benefits of unschooling are fully appreciated by a society that values marks and grades and other external motivators, thus making most unschoolers appear at a disadvantage (because they don't have a nice printed curriculum or transcript to outline their progress).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:00 am 
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 1324
Location: Montreal
oh good. i typed this reply last night and for some reason it didn't show up til now. it's meant to appear on the first page. now it's totally out of context.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:35 am 
Has it on Blue Vinyl
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:31 pm
Posts: 2133
Location: 510
Quote:
Friends said they were imposing their political and ideological values on a newborn.


I really hate that. I don't want or plan to have kids, but the only reason I might would be to try to make little mes. I'm awesome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:12 pm 
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1521
Man. If you're ever feeling unconvinced that people are TERRIFIED by anyone that doesn't conform absolutely perfectly to prescribed gender roles, just read the comments on Yahoo news articles. Jesus Christ.

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:13 pm 
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:57 pm
Posts: 6147
Location: Boston, MA
I keep thinking about this thread because a woman in my office is knitting a baby sweater for someone who is just choosing to wait until the child is born to know the sex. Well, she can't make it Pink! Or Blue! Or put flower buttons!

She is a really good knitter, I will say, but ugh, just stop.

_________________
I would eat Dr. Cow pocket cheese in a second. I would eat it if you hid it under your hat, or in your backpack, but not if it was in your shoe. That's where I draw the line. -allularpunk


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:34 am 
Wrote Dissertation on Vegans, Meat, and the Deserted Island Question
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1641
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Larisa wrote:
Like, I think I probably would have done pretty well with it, but I was a kid who thought that a fabulous use of my free time was to go to the library and get a book and learn calculus or French

I don't have a lot to say about unschooling as I'm not 100% in the know (but very interested, I have looked at the other thread and I've heard of it before) but I just wanted to say that I was totally like this as a kid. I didn't have a sister until I was 6, so if I wanted to entertain myself I'd just go read a book, or study the atlas.

_________________
Mel makes vegan food


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:02 am 
Built this city on rock and roll
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 1196
Phoenix wrote:
aelle wrote:
There aren't any unisex names in German?? My name is Raphaelle - as far as the pronunciation is concerned, it's gender neutral, like all angel names. My mother is Camille, my grandmother is Claude, both unisex. Dominique and Pascal are other traditional, unisex names. And then there are nicknames: Sam (Samuel/Samantha), Alex or Sasha (Alexander/Alexandra), Max (Maximilian/Maxine), Steph (Stephan/Stephanie)... Would any of those work?

Oh there are unisex names in German! Sascha, Kim, etc. I've never heard Max used for a girl, but I guess it would work (but I'm not sure you could actually use the short form in a birth certificate)...


German laws seem to be the same as the Austrian ones: the name cannot be gender neutral. If it is unclear, you have to give your child a not-gender neutral middle name. Raphaelle would work for both because there is a male and a female spelling: Raphaelle vs. Raphael.

I also hate the fact that you have to register your child shortly after their birth and disclose their sex. Keeping your child's sex a secret is not an option. And if you were born as an intersex person, your parents would have to decide your gender for you.

ndpittman wrote:
I keep thinking about this thread because a woman in my office is knitting a baby sweater for someone who is just choosing to wait until the child is born to know the sex. Well, she can't make it Pink! Or Blue! Or put flower buttons!

She is a really good knitter, I will say, but ugh, just stop.


I think it is very nice that she is knitting something. There are so many wonderful colours besides blue and pink! Personally I would want to avoid dressing my baby in a colour that is supposed to tell their sex.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:22 pm 
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Norristown, PA
Mihl wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
aelle wrote:
There aren't any unisex names in German?? My name is Raphaelle - as far as the pronunciation is concerned, it's gender neutral, like all angel names. My mother is Camille, my grandmother is Claude, both unisex. Dominique and Pascal are other traditional, unisex names. And then there are nicknames: Sam (Samuel/Samantha), Alex or Sasha (Alexander/Alexandra), Max (Maximilian/Maxine), Steph (Stephan/Stephanie)... Would any of those work?

Oh there are unisex names in German! Sascha, Kim, etc. I've never heard Max used for a girl, but I guess it would work (but I'm not sure you could actually use the short form in a birth certificate)...


German laws seem to be the same as the Austrian ones: the name cannot be gender neutral. If it is unclear, you have to give your child a not-gender neutral middle name. Raphaelle would work for both because there is a male and a female spelling: Raphaelle vs. Raphael.

I also hate the fact that you have to register your child shortly after their birth and disclose their sex. Keeping your child's sex a secret is not an option. And if you were born as an intersex person, your parents would have to decide your gender for you.



I'm curious, what would be the consequence if someone refused to give their child a gender-specific name or middle name, or if they refused to assign a gender to their child when registering them (or just refused to register them at all)?

_________________
Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives
Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnation
blog! FB!


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:23 pm 
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:06 pm
Posts: 472
Location: Vancouver Island
As someone who was bullied really badly despite having better examples of all the 'reasons' I was bullied for. (There were poorer kids, smellier kids, stranger kids etc.) eh... I have to say to anyone (luckily not anyone here) that these parents aren't setting their kids up to be bullied. There's no way to prevent bullying. You can't just CONFORM HARDER and not be bullied.

^ that's not an argument meant for anyone here, but it is one that I've seen people blowing about in other forums and news articles.

I'm so excited by this, I feel like yes, it could be described as an experiment, but it's a good experiment espousing good science if it's any kind of experiment. When enforcing gender roles based on sex as we do now has proven itself to be damaging on a wide spread scale, why not try something else?

_________________
http://seraphsong.blogspot.com/
Guilty of Being Sprite - They're probably just waiting for the camera egg to hatch, which would then create a much larger camera they'd quickly find.


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:35 pm 
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Norristown, PA
Nickalya wrote:
You can't just CONFORM HARDER and not be bullied.


*high five*

_________________
Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives
Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnation
blog! FB!


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:47 pm 
Totally sane, not interested in bats whatsoever.
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:14 pm
Posts: 1262
Location: Tijuana
Mihl wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
I keep thinking about this thread because a woman in my office is knitting a baby sweater for someone who is just choosing to wait until the child is born to know the sex. Well, she can't make it Pink! Or Blue! Or put flower buttons!

She is a really good knitter, I will say, but ugh, just stop.


I think it is very nice that she is knitting something. There are so many wonderful colours besides blue and pink! Personally I would want to avoid dressing my baby in a colour that is supposed to tell their sex.


Green!

My parents didn't know my gender until I was born, so they painted my room green : )

_________________
"I love you, but you need to get out of the kitchen before I spatula your face." -Pinko
"You can always trade sex for cookies. It might make you feel dirty, but just keep your eyes closed and think of vanilla." -Tofulish


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:49 pm 
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Norristown, PA
andi_vert wrote:
Mihl wrote:
ndpittman wrote:
I keep thinking about this thread because a woman in my office is knitting a baby sweater for someone who is just choosing to wait until the child is born to know the sex. Well, she can't make it Pink! Or Blue! Or put flower buttons!

She is a really good knitter, I will say, but ugh, just stop.


I think it is very nice that she is knitting something. There are so many wonderful colours besides blue and pink! Personally I would want to avoid dressing my baby in a colour that is supposed to tell their sex.


Green!

My parents didn't know my gender until I was born, so they painted my room green : )


My parents didn't know my gender until I was 22! :D

_________________
Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives
Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnation
blog! FB!


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:58 pm 
Totally sane, not interested in bats whatsoever.
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:14 pm
Posts: 1262
Location: Tijuana
choirqueer wrote:
My parents didn't know my gender until I was 22! :D

<3

What I meant is that they didn't know my biological sex, hehe.

_________________
"I love you, but you need to get out of the kitchen before I spatula your face." -Pinko
"You can always trade sex for cookies. It might make you feel dirty, but just keep your eyes closed and think of vanilla." -Tofulish


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:01 pm 
Built this city on rock and roll
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 1196
choirqueer wrote:
I'm curious, what would be the consequence if someone refused to give their child a gender-specific name or middle name, or if they refused to assign a gender to their child when registering them (or just refused to register them at all)?


I don't think you can refuse that. I am absolutely not familiar with the laws, but your gender will be written down in your birth certificate, your passport, etc. The only thing you can do is change your gender and/or name later. Here it is illegal not to be registered and not to have a passport. (Children don't have a passport but you have to register your child within a week. I think you can get a delay, but that's it.) You even have to register the place where you live. But I really don't have that much knowledge of the topic. The only thing I know is that it is totally forked up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:03 pm 
Naked Under Apron
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:03 pm
Posts: 1711
Location: Central PA
I've read that, in Germany, there's a list of approved names, and if you want to name your baby something that's not on the list, there's some government board that has to say it's OK. Is that true?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:10 pm 
Built this city on rock and roll
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 1196
Yeah something like that. Some names are forbidden (Hitler). Others have to be approved by the registrar. You can also go to court. But it's completely subjective. For example I just read that the name Holgerson wasn't approved by a judge. But I know someone who's middle name in Holgerson. (Holgerson is considered as a last name and therefore the judge didn't approve it in the first case. I guess you just have to be lucky in most cases. Or choose a good middle/first name name. We clearly have too many laws.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:27 pm 
Built this city on rock and roll
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 1196
@ choirqueer: I am taking back what I just said about gender specific names. The federal constitutional court decided in 2008 that there is no legal basis (especially no constitutional basis) for forcing people to give their children gender-specific names. I am sorry I didn't reasearch this properly before.
Here is a link but it is only available in german.
http://www.bverfg.de/entscheidungen/rk2 ... 57607.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm 
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:31 pm
Posts: 3890
Location: Graz, Austria
Apparently in EU countries children need to have passports now.
I recently had a great talk with two little boys who showed me their passports - with baby pictures in them. They found it absolutely funny that they didn't look like their pictures at all (any more). I showed them my own passport, and since I change my hair a lot, I don't resemble my picture either, even though my passport is not that old. They were convinced I was a spy. Fun!

And about the strictness of registering laws and procedures... A friend of mine named her daughter Linell - at least that was how she wanted it to be spelled. The authorities said no, so she had to spell it the French way, Linèle. As a sort of revenge she gave her daughter a whole lot of complicated middle names.


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
 Post subject: Re: Parents keep child's gender secret
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:32 pm 
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Norristown, PA
Phoenix wrote:
And about the strictness of registering laws and procedures... A friend of mine named her daughter Linell - at least that was how she wanted it to be spelled. The authorities said no, so she had to spell it the French way, Linèle. As a sort of revenge she gave her daughter a whole lot of complicated middle names.


Yeah! That is exactly what I'm wondering about, in a situation like that, what would happen if the parents were like "No, we're naming the kid Linell"? Would the authorities change the spelling for them? Would they have to pay a fine? Would they go to jail? Would the kid get taken away? How serious would be the consequence of someone saying "No, I will not give my child a gender-specific name"?

_________________
Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives
Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnation
blog! FB!


Top
 Profile WWW  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer