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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:32 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
Also, maybe tell your husband that if he's so worried about what is and isn't vegan maybe he should stop eating animal products.

Burn!

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:35 pm 
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We haven't had a honey thread in so long that I feel like it's ok to have a honey thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:53 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:01 pm 
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hoveringdog™ wrote:
ijustdiedinside wrote:
I usually talk about this Michael Pollan article http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archi ... factories/

The second half talks about bees being used for pollination. This is what actually stopped me eating honey. I didn't really care about it much when I first became vegan, but this showed more about bees being really exploited.

But the bees in the article aren't being used for honey production, but for almond production ("Pimping bees is the whole of the almond business for these beekeepers since almond honey is so bitter as to be worthless"), so wouldn't it make more sense to boycott almonds?


this makes so much sense, and it totally bums me out. :-(

i'm going to contact blue diamond and ask them if they use trucked bees. i'm sure they do, but at least then i'd be on the list of concerned citizens. (i bet the bees would be ridonkulously healthier and less stressed out if they weren't trucked, but it's possible that the sheer quantity of almond trees in that monocrop need way too many bees that can be sustained with the flowers that are available the rest of the year in off-almond season. i wonder if it'd be possible to do a micro trucking situation. like just trucking within california to different trees that bloom at different parts of the year, and then letting them overwinter in southern california and then start over again in the spring. [instead of trucking them all over the country] or even better, figure out a way to interplant farms that bloom at different times of the year and then locate the hives between the different farms.

as for the intermingled fryer oil, i personally avoid it. it grosses me out.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:07 pm 
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I haven't heard any compelling arguments against honey, so I don't worry about it. I don't eat it straight up, but I don't care if it's in things like cereal and bread. If that make me not vegan to some people, then oh well. I don't care about labels too much. When I was researching veganism prior to making the change though, I read in a few places that some vegans eat honey and some don't, therefore you just make the best decision that works for your own life.

And, when it comes to restaurants, I eat fries and I don't think about it. As long as I'm not ordering and paying for the chicken, then that's good enough for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:01 pm 
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I eat fries. I don't like thinking about it, and in places that specialize in fish and chips I avoid fries because they often taste like fish, but I'd starve if I was in my hometown or travelling some places and I couldn't eat anything fried with shared oil.

eta: I wouldn't starve, but my my diet would be too restrictive for what I consider healthy, for myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Quote:
I'm concerned with animal suffering, not some dogmatic purity.


This makes sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Somebody posted an article on facebook the other day about this . . . I don't remember if it was a PPKer or not, but let me see if I can find it . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:27 pm 
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vijita wrote:
I wouldn't starve, but my my diet would be too restrictive for what I consider healthy, for myself.


Hear, hear. I am vegan, I eschew animal products, but I do not avoid things like french fries from fryers I don't know about. For myself, that level of restriction is nothing but bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:40 pm 
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starrynight87 wrote:
Somebody posted an article on facebook the other day about this . . . I don't remember if it was a PPKer or not, but let me see if I can find it . . .

Here we go! It was on Vegan Heartland's facebook page: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

I'd never ever thought of the idea of a bee factory farm before.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:43 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
Off topic: What about food that's fried in the same oil? Like french fries in a restaurant that also has chicken fingers or whatever? My husband (who's omni anyway) always says that's not really vegan.


I avoid stuff like that mostly because it gives me sad tummy times. I can usually tell about an hour later if fried food shared the oil with something meaty...

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Also a bee once stung me in the mouth while trying to steal MY food (it landed on a piece of licorice right as I was taking a bite! My lip swelled up SO HUGE! On my BIRTHDAY!), so I feel entirely justified in wreaking terrible vengeance upon the entire world of bees. Seriously, friggin bees. THEY OWE ME. They shall SUFFER as I SUFFERED! ALL THEIR HONEY SHALL BE MINE.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:55 pm 
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I just say that it's bug vomit.
They are in the same phylum as lobsters and crabs, and I don't consume them or their vomit either.

"Back off, man! I'm a scientist." -Peter Venkman

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:16 pm 
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HappyAsh wrote:
I just say that it's bug vomit.


It's regurgitated (not actually the same as vomiting) and bees are not true bugs, as they do not have sucking mouthparts. So it's actually nectar regurgitated by arthropods.

Also, random fact: You can use honey as a wound dressing and it will generate hydrogen peroxide. That's pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:19 pm 
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My brother had a beehive in Ithaca, and a bear destroyed it.

He has a new beehive now, but this one has hurtful anti-bear epithets scrawled all over it.

And that's why I don't eat honey.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Regurgitated vs. Vomitted.. Despite my silly Ghost Busters quote, I'm not qualified to make that distinction :-).

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am 
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NO JUDGMENT but I avoid mixed fryers the same way I avoid a fryer that a drunk busboy just took a dump in. That is to say, whenever I possibly can.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:38 am 
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IsaChandra wrote:
NO JUDGMENT but I avoid mixed fryers the same way I avoid a fryer that a drunk busboy just took a dump in. That is to say, whenever I possibly can.

Whatever, BEE MOLESTER

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:44 am 
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Thanks for all the replies! I will look at the linked sites later as I have to go back to work now.

It's a bit annoying because I've never liked the taste of honey straight up, or of baked goods made from it, so I wouldn't be buying that anyway. But so many products have started adding a bit of it because it's meant to be healthy or posh or whatever. Even Lidl (cheap) branflakes have it now! And don't even advertise it!

I do think bees are rather awesome.

EDIT: Sorry Isa, I can see this is one of those annoying threads that must keep coming up. But I'm far too lazy to find information for myself. Thanks for bearing with me.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:49 am 
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IsaChandra wrote:
NO JUDGMENT but I avoid mixed fryers the same way I avoid a fryer that a drunk busboy just took a dump in. That is to say, whenever I possibly can.


Now i'm worried about poo particles on my fries.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:45 am 
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This is the most succinct explanation of the honey thing that I've ever found: http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/a ... honey.aspx

I've always loved honey, so I've had to consider whether the arguments for giving it up were as compelling for me as for eschewing other animal products or if I was just doing it because that's what it takes to be "fully vegan". Reading that link made me realize that industrial scale honey production suffers from some of the same problems as any other industrial animal agriculture (killing/mutilation of the queen to control hive behaviour, spreading of disease among hives and to wild populations, and drastic measures taken to control disease) and since honey is one of the easier products to avoid, there's no point in me continuing to use it. I'm still phasing it out and am not as careful about it as I am about other products, but I won't be buying it any more.

RE: mixed fryers, it depends how "meaty" the place is, if that makes sense. Although I was bummed to discover that almost all Belgian fries are fried in beef fat rather than vegetable oil. :( So now I always ask what kind of fat they use and no longer assume fries are safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:06 am 
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I think worrying too much about honey makes veganism look harder than it is (even though honey isn't that hard to avoid) and vegans look like fanatics. But the response I more often get is omnivores trying to make some big asparagus deal out of me being a hypocrite if I don't avoid honey. I just say fine, so I'm a vegetarian.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:26 am 
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if you want more information about this read the fruitless fall. it mainly focuses on the bee collapse syndrome but one of the reasons they feel it could be occurring is the stress placed on bees lives, such as being trucked, having a monoculture, replacing food with corn syrup... also lots of the us's supply of honey comes from china which recently has been found to be tainted with high levels of lead. so fork that.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey- how to explain to omnis why we don't eat it?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:59 am 
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I really love bees, so it all makes me quite sad. I avoid honey just as hard as anything else non-vegan. But sometimes it does get really frustrating. Like... I really just want god-damned barbecue Kettle brand potato chips. All vegan... except one thing, forkin honey! FWP.

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