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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:26 pm 
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EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
paprikapapaya wrote:
Perhaps you might consider leaving the internet since there are far worse things being said than that pretty much everywhere.

was that directed at me?



No, a catch-all for the offended.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:28 pm 
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OK let's stop taking things personally and get on with the discussion. Don't make me come back there!

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:34 pm 
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paprikapapaya wrote:
EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
paprikapapaya wrote:
Perhaps you might consider leaving the internet since there are far worse things being said than that pretty much everywhere.

was that directed at me?

No, a catch-all for the offended.

either way, that strikes me as a rather nasty and dismissive thing to say. sometimes people who object to the way things are said find it problematic for a legitimate reason and wish to address it. it's not always people "looking to be offended". i don't think there's any harm in being mindful of how we say things.


IsaChandra wrote:
OK let's stop taking things personally and get on with the discussion. Don't make me come back there!

apologies. i didn't mean for it to come off that way.

before the tangent, the only thing i would have added to the discussion was "OMGWTFBBQTOFU" OR SOMETHING.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:39 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
eatsbabies wrote:
When someone tells you that they were offended by something you said, it's not because they think you're wrong or a bad person. The best response is not to get defensive, but to apologize and think about how what you said might have been harmful.

I take issue with this. The best response is not necessarily to apologize when someone is offended. Sometimes you have to simply agree to disagree. One might think it over and agree that they were offensive. One might also think it over and not agree.


Panda is wise.

I do wonder what the plan was to find and lure a real fur wearer to the library.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
I do wonder what the plan was to find and lure a real fur wearer to the library.

I was wondering about that too, I can honestly say I don't think I've seen a fur wearer in the library before (coincidence, or do people who wear fur don't use the public library?)

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:24 pm 
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Quarantined wrote:
Vantine wrote:
I do wonder what the plan was to find and lure a real fur wearer to the library.

I was wondering about that too, I can honestly say I don't think I've seen a fur wearer in the library before (coincidence, or do people who wear fur don't use the public library?)


I live in Florida so I can't say that I've seen fur in the library but I'm sure they show up in other states. How do you verify that it's real fur? Was the murderer supposed to stalk the victim first?

Murdering someone and then handing out literature sounds like something from an old issue of Judge Dredd.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:27 pm 
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I wasn't trying to escalate things, and I love the ppk. But I was, and still am, upset by the dismissive tone in this thread. I'm not going to say anything else, just... think about it? Maybe? If you want to. Okay.


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Well then let's also consider that a lot of mental illness is ignored in criminals. Making statistics that look like it's not mentally ill people in prison, it's just the really bad eggs - and that we could never be those people because we're not bad people. To me, it's the easy way out to assume everyone who does something wrong is just a bad person and to ignore what their deeper issues might be.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Fee wrote:
Well then let's also consider that a lot of mental illness is ignored in criminals. Making statistics that look like it's not mentally ill people in prison, it's just the really bad eggs - and that we could never be those people because we're not bad people. To me, it's the easy way out to assume everyone who does something wrong is just a bad person and to ignore what their deeper issues might be.


yes. I woke up at 4:00 this morning and have been traveling to or in court ever since, and am too tired to weigh in for real, but I endorse this statement.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:33 am 
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eatsbabies wrote:
I'm not going to say anything else, just... think about it? Maybe? If you want to. Okay.

I have been thinking about it. I personally think it is reasonable to assume some serious mental health issues at play here. Not because of the intended violence but the motives behind them. They just don't make any sense and she is/was obviously completely out of touch with any kind of reality.

I think being offended by this assumption is more than an overreaction, it's a reaction to something that's simply not there.

I hope this doesn't come off as dismissive, because this is my honest opinion and I have tried to think about from the other side but I just can't grasp it. I'm not 100% convinced that I'm right, and I'd welcome any input.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:36 am 
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FootFace wrote:
And what is the whole thing meant to achieve? Highlighting the importance of the anti-fur message? Persuading people to go vegan? Creating contempt for people who wear fur? Delegitimizing fur? I think it's irrational—and evidence of a break with reality—to believe this act could accomplish any of those things. Not to mention believing the routinely irrational things common to all violent crime.

Quote:
She hoped to be arrested so she could call attention to her beliefs and to get out of the home she shared with her parents and brothers who eat meat and eggs and use fur, leather and wool, investigators said.

I'm pretty sure she is no longer living with her parents.

I wonder if she is getting vegan meals in jail?

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:52 am 
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dandirtyapes wrote:
FootFace wrote:
And what is the whole thing meant to achieve? Highlighting the importance of the anti-fur message? Persuading people to go vegan? Creating contempt for people who wear fur? Delegitimizing fur? I think it's irrational—and evidence of a break with reality—to believe this act could accomplish any of those things. Not to mention believing the routinely irrational things common to all violent crime.

Quote:
She hoped to be arrested so she could call attention to her beliefs and to get out of the home she shared with her parents and brothers who eat meat and eggs and use fur, leather and wool, investigators said.

I'm pretty sure she is no longer living with her parents.

I wonder if she is getting vegan meals in jail?

Where did the quote come from? Sorry if it's somewhere obvious and I've missed it - I reread the article and didn't see it elsewhere in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:05 am 
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I can't find the article I got that from but,

Quote:
"So all of the speciest things I have mentioned...make me want to have the hit even sooner so I can get out of my house and hopefully get closer to ending the fur industry which is our goal," she wrote.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-facebook- ... 0iV4vXxZQI

edit: here it is http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... ntpostform

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:41 am 
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I will go out on a limb and suggest that she will not be granted bail at her upcoming hearing.

HDog- she used the library computers to set up the hit. And you thought they were all looking for jobs or online dates.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:30 am 
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Vantine wrote:
HDog- she used the library computers to set up the hit. And you thought they were all looking for jobs or online dates.


Yeah, that's not a question I've had quite yet, though I'm sure I've aided and abetted a few stalkers.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:22 am 
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dandirtyapes wrote:
FootFace wrote:
And what is the whole thing meant to achieve? Highlighting the importance of the anti-fur message? Persuading people to go vegan? Creating contempt for people who wear fur? Delegitimizing fur? I think it's irrational—and evidence of a break with reality—to believe this act could accomplish any of those things. Not to mention believing the routinely irrational things common to all violent crime.

Quote:
She hoped to be arrested so she could call attention to her beliefs and to get out of the home she shared with her parents and brothers who eat meat and eggs and use fur, leather and wool, investigators said.

I'm pretty sure she is no longer living with her parents.

I wonder if she is getting vegan meals in jail?

Surprisingly, this is the most rational thing I've heard yet! This is meant to end the fur industry (won't happen) AND get her out of her parents' house (WILL HAPPEN).

I'm not sure if she'll get vegan meals in jail


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:47 am 
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I see. So instead of just... leaving home, she hoped to arrange a murder so she could get arrested and, as a result, be removed from her home.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:31 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I see. So instead of just... leaving home, she hoped to arrange a murder so she could get arrested and, as a result, be removed from her home.

Isn't that what you did?

Her motives become more and more bizarre the more they are explained.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:32 pm 
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I also feel really badly for the Cleveland area animal rights groups who have to provide responses to the press.

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You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
I also feel really badly for the Cleveland area animal rights groups who have to provide responses to the press.

They're handling it really well! Every time I've seen a clip they've been very calm, collected and articulate.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:20 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Fee wrote:
Well then let's also consider that a lot of mental illness is ignored in criminals. Making statistics that look like it's not mentally ill people in prison, it's just the really bad eggs - and that we could never be those people because we're not bad people. To me, it's the easy way out to assume everyone who does something wrong is just a bad person and to ignore what their deeper issues might be.


yes. I woke up at 4:00 this morning and have been traveling to or in court ever since, and am too tired to weigh in for real, but I endorse this statement.

i agree with this as well.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:25 am 
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Here's an update, which brings up her mental health http://clevelandheights.patch.com/articles/facebook-murder-for-hire-suspect-pleas-not-guilty:
"The defense team for the Cleveland Heights woman charged with plotting to hire a hit man to kill a random person wearing fur entered a not guilty plea today in U.S. District Court.

Her attorneys, Walter Lucas and Paul Shipp, also requested that Meredith Lowell, 27, of Cleveland Heights, receive a competency evaluation to determine whether she can participate in court proceedings. It was granted, and she will receive a mental health examination.

"Given the evidence that the government has presented to us thus far, it seems clear that Ms. Lowell's alleged conduct could only be characterized as completely irrational. At the present time, we have serious concerns about Ms. Lowell's ability to fully understand everything that is happening in her case and to participate in her own defense," Lucas said in an e-mail. "Whether she is legally competent to stand trial needs to be carefully examined before the government is permitted to pursue its prosecution of this case."

Competency evaluations take 90 to 120 days, and the next court date will not be set until that's completed.

Lowell was denied bail at her previous court appearance Feb. 28, and she will remain in custody.

Judge Patricia Gaughan presided over the arraignment today.

The FBI arrested Lowell Feb. 21 and charged her with solicitation to commit murder. She is accused of corresponding with an undercover agent via Facebook and email about a plan to kill someone 12 years old or older wearing fur outside of the Coventry Village Library.

The FBI wrote in an affidavit that she sent the e-mails from a computer in the Cleveland Heights-University Heights Public Library. The messages contain details about how she'd like the job done and her desire to be caught to spread awareness about an animal rights.

“The amount of money I will pay will be $730. You need to bring a gun that has a silencer on it and that can be easily concealed in your pants pocket or coat. Do not wear anything that even remotely looks like fur. If you do not want to risk the possibility of getting caught with a gun before the job, bring a sharp knife that is at least 4 inches long ... I want the person to be dead in less than 2 minutes (under 2 minutes or 1 minute or less would be better,)" the suspect wrote, according to the FBI.

Later the affidavit states she wrote about her disdain for the new Cleveland Aquarium and likened the fish in tanks to babies in bathtubs.

"We as animal rights activists need to put a stronger fight against people who abuse animals."

Lowell also said living with her family was frustrating for her because they eat meat, wear animal products like wool and leather and have a chair made of fur.

"...until the hit on someone wearing fur is done, I will not be able to get away from my house. So now you know part of the reason why I am going to stay at the location of the hit after the hit is done at the library — partially to get away from my house."

Cleveland Heights Patch will continue to update this article as more information becomes available."


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:58 am 
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Hm. Of course this is totally just speculation, but the fact that she would want to get away from home so badly could possibly suggest there was some abuse in the home, which is associated with developing mental illness. This may have been some kind of very irrational cry for help.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Aubade wrote:
Hm. Of course this is totally just speculation, but the fact that she would want to get away from home so badly could possibly suggest there was some abuse in the home, which is associated with developing mental illness. This may have been some kind of very irrational cry for help.



Having read through this whole thread, I must wonder this, as well.

As irrational as her actions may seem, there is probably something that sparked this. Who knows if anyone will ever figure out what it was, but... I mean, perception is reality. Just because something cannot be perceived by someone else (or maybe not by anyone else), does not make it any less real to the person who perceives it, the person whose reality it is.

The whole thing is just sad and sucky for this woman, for the people of this town, for the greater Cleveland vegan/AR community, and for vegans/AR folk and the world in general.

I'm no shrink, but it does seem likely that this woman struggles with her mental health, and, as Fee so brilliantly stated, mental health in criminals is often overlooked and/or manipulated to create an "us vs. them" thing. I know that there is nobody even peripherally involved in this whole thing that I don't feel absolutely awful for.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:45 am 
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She has been released, because she's too mentally ill to stand trial.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/02/post_106.html
"CLEVELAND — An animal-rights activist, who was accused last year of soliciting a hit man to kill someone wearing fur in Cleveland Heights, is too mentally ill to stand trial, a judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge Patricia Gaughan freed Meredith Lowell of Cleveland Heights earlier this month based on a psychological report that found her mentally incompetent to stand trial and not capable of being rehabilitated to competency.

Gaughan also ruled that Lowell’s mental illness prohibits her from possessing firearms, and ordered Lowell’s family to dispose of handguns, shotguns and rifles that were in the home the day she was arrested a year ago this month.

Lowell, 28, was being held at the Federal Medical Center Carswell in Fort Worth, Texas, which specializes in mental health services for female inmates.

Her arrest came after the FBI received a tip that someone on Facebook wanted to pay an assasin to kill someone wearing fur near the Coventry branch of the Cleveland Heights-University Heights Public Library, according to court documents.

The Facebook user, later identified as Lowell, said she wanted to be present during the killing and planned to hand out anti-fur industry literature at the scene of the crime, according to the documents.

An FBI agent, posing as a hit man, began an online correspondence with Lowell, according to the documents. In one message, she told the FBI agent: "I am paying you to kill one person wearing fur who is 12 or older (but hopefully at least 14 years, however 12 years old or older is fine.)"


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