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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:44 pm 
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But this isn't a normal violent act. You have to take all the details into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:47 pm 
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No one is saying mentally ill people are more prone to violence. People are suggesting that this particular woman appears to be mentally unstable and that the way that she went about attempting to commit a violent act and her rationale for doing so seems to support the assertion that she seems mentally ill.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:56 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
No one is saying mentally ill people are more prone to violence. People are suggesting that this particular woman appears to be mentally unstable and that the way that she went about attempting to commit a violent act and her rationale for doing so seems to support the assertion that she seems mentally ill.

I know that people aren't literally saying "violent person = crazy person," but I think the assumptions being made here are perpetuating that stereotype.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:01 pm 
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I disagree.

If she had planned and attempted her violent crime in a way that was not so bizarre and blatantly irrational, I suspect she would be called out (here, anyway) for being a violent crasshole, but not a crazy person. I really don't get that people are implying that she is crazy because she attempted to commit a violent act or that she attempted to commit the violent act because she is crazy. I think people are just acknowledging that both the fact that she seems to be unbalanced and the fact that she attempted to commit a violent act appear to be true.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:39 pm 
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JP: I don't think her rationale is especially bizarre compared to those in other violent crimes, so yeah, I guess we do disagree.

What is it about this situation that makes you (anyone who would like to answer, not just Jordan) believe that she has a mental illness? Is it because it was premeditated? Because she wanted to kill someone she doesn't know? If you believe it isn't reasonable to kill someone (or pay someone else to kill someone) for wearing fur, what would be a more reasonable motive?

I'm interested in researching which of our "common sense" beliefs are factually true and which are myths. (PMs are cool if you don't want to drag this thread out)

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:50 pm 
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It goes beyond killing someone who was wearing fur.

I said this earlier:
"But anyway, the logic/reasoning makes no sense. Killing someone in front of others and passing out AR literature will make them see her side? Will make them more sympathetic? Will make them... ? After viewing a murder, people will be interested in taking a pamphlet and will actually read it? Not really. This seems like a mentally disturbed person to me for sure."

She wanted someone else to do the killing, so that she could pass out AR literature afterward. How is that normal? If you watched this kid get murdered, would you take a pamphlet from someone and read it?

Not to mention how oddly specific her demands were about the person dying within two minutes and how she wanted the victim to be as young as 12-14


Last edited by bastah on Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:56 pm 
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The factors I think point to irrationality (and remember, I work in a criminal defense firm, so not only am I pretty familiar with crimes and people who commit them, but I'm generally very sympathetic):
1. Creating a fake profile on facebook to hire a contract killer.
2. Wanting to be present to pass out leaflets when the crime is committed.
3. Stating she would accept a person as young as 12, but preferably 14 or older to commit the crime.

Those are the three big factors that pop out at me, but I'm sure there are more details if I went back and took a more detailed look at the article.

My question to you is, do you honestly think this sounds roughly as rational as any other violent crime?

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:58 pm 
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(All the local articles I read about it said that she only wanted the victim to be as young as 12-14)


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:02 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
My question to you is, do you honestly think this sounds roughly as rational as any other violent crime?


Yeah, really. This is a plan poorly-hatched by someone who is not using their mental faculties to their fullest capacity. Most, if not all, of the plans made make no sense. The whole thing seems very paranoid, irrational and really out of touch with reality.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:09 pm 
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bastah wrote:
(All the local articles I read about it said that she only wanted the victim to be as young as 12-14)


Okay, maybe that's it. The CNN article is ambiguous, and I took it to mean that she was referring to the person she wished to hire, not the victim. Either way, it's still pretty bizarre.

Also, to add to what I said above, if this person came into my office for help, I'd be looking at getting them evaluated right away by a psychologist. Honestly, based on the facts available now (which are admittedly not much), I'm not even sure I'd be convinced she was competent to stand trial, let alone be held responsible for her actions. I think the available information points to her not having a grasp on the nature and quality of her attempted actions, a (very simplified version of) the legal standard for whether a person should be held accountable, rather than committed for treatment of mental health issues.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:11 pm 
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I have to agree with everyone else saying she seems mentally unstable. Particularly when she says things like this:

Quote:
"I would like to create an online community on facebook which would allow me to find someone who is willing to kill someone who is wearing fur toward the end of October 2011 or early November 2011 or possibly in January 2012 or February 2012 at the latest."


Why would she point out each month like that, and skip December? Is she just too busy Christmas shopping to be present at the murder that month? It just seems unusually bizarre and non-rational.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:15 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Also, to add to what I said above, if this person came into my office for help, I'd be looking at getting them evaluated right away by a psychologist. Honestly, based on the facts available now (which are admittedly not much), I'm not even sure I'd be convinced she was competent to stand trial, let alone be held responsible for her actions. I think the available information points to her not having a grasp on the nature and quality of her attempted actions, a (very simplified version of) the legal standard for whether a person should be held accountable, rather than committed for treatment of mental health issues.

She's actually going to have a competency hearing http://fox8.com/2012/02/21/fbi-says-cleveland-hts-woman-tried-hiring-hit-man-to-kill-anyone-wearing-fur/


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:59 pm 
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I saw this news story and Lorain, OH isn't that far from where I live. I go to library's fairly often too.

I have to agree with bastah, what about somebody who's wearing fake fur?

I have a couple of winter coats with fake fur trim and another that looks like leather with a "wool" lining. They look close enough to the real deal that I've had my winter coats mistaken for leather and fur by people, enough so that had to show them the label since they didn't believe it was man-made materials. I never thought for a second wearing those coats could potentially make me a target for violence. I thought was showing off how cool fake fur/fake leather could look so people might think twice about purchasing fur or leather for the sake of fashion.

I feel badly for this woman if she believes violence is the answer to getting people to stop wearing fur and leather.


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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Especially a 12-14 year old wearing fur. You know...someone who is ESPECIALLY likely to be wearing fake fur.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:55 pm 
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I can't see how it's not bizarre to put out a hit via facebook on an adolescent in a library who may or may not be wearing real fur, and then plan to hand out anti-fur literature. Does that really sound like most crimes? Do you think that most vegans probably consider this is a really great, effective and above all, rational tactic?

I think it's okay sometimes to recognize that there are mentally ill people who do forked up things. I mean, did you not immediately think that Jared Lee Laughtner had some sort of mental illness, just judging from the expression in his mug shot? Obviously it doesn't mean all mentally ill people do forked up things, and most of us have mentally ill people in our lives that we care for or care about. Many of us have mental illnesses ourselves. But I don't think it's wrong to speculate that some criminal behavior is due to a mental illness, and not a place of rational calculation.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Look: I don't think it was rational, or reasonable, or a good idea. I just don't find it less rational than many other violent crimes. You can stop talking to me as though I might agree with her tactics now. Jesus.

Quote:
I mean, did you not immediately think that Jared Lee Laughtner had some sort of mental illness, just judging from the expression in his mug shot?

I hope this part was a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:14 pm 
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I didn't think you agreed with her tactics at all, not sure how that came across. You asked for people to explain how it was less rational and so the immediate thought I had was how is it at all rational? If your answer is that it isn't less rational then okay, but I think it is and don't see how you think it's not. But I guess we'll see what happens at this competency hearing.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Did she want it to look like she just happened to be there with a pile of AR leaflets? That wouldn't seem suspicious at all.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:27 pm 
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b.vicious wrote:
Look: I don't think it was rational, or reasonable, or a good idea. I just don't find it less rational than many other violent crimes. You can stop talking to me as though I might agree with her tactics now. Jesus.


I asked above, and I'm still curious: can you please elucidate why/how you think this is roughly on par with other violent crimes?

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:29 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I didn't think you agreed with her tactics at all, not sure how that came across.

I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. I guess I got mixed up when you asked whether "most vegans" think it is rational - I don't think that really matters, since I'm talking about people who commit violent crimes as a group, not vegans as a group.

Quote:
You asked for people to explain how it was less rational and so the immediate thought I had was how is it at all rational? If your answer is that it isn't less rational then okay, but I think it is and don't see how you think it's not. But I guess we'll see what happens at this competency hearing.

Like I said, I don't think it is rational. When I say "not less rational" I don't mean rational, I mean not irrational to a greater degree (IMO). Also, I don't think that "irrational action" = "mental illness", although it's obvious that many people would disagree with that.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm 
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No I don't think most people think irrational action = mental illness. I think most people are looking at the whole picture here and thinking it doesn't add up to something a totally mentally competent, completely sane individual would do.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:36 pm 
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b.vicious wrote:
You can stop talking to me as though I might agree with her tactics now. Jesus.

I keep feeling like we aren't reading the same thread. I think most people take issue with the parallels you have drawn. Nobody in this thread has stated anything about mental illness equating violence, nor has anybody stated they thought you agree with her tactics.

What I'm having trouble with is the rigid definition you're using for "rational." Is murder rational? No, but context is everything here. The fact that this woman was planning a hit for a ridiculous reason in an absolutely baffling manner seriously says something about her views on reality. It's just not comparable to other violent crimes in that way.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:40 pm 
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There's a difference between doing something irrational (which everyone does, people with and without mental illness) and envisioning and deliberately planning something so irrational. Why a victim between 12 and 14? Why be on hand to pass out literature at the murder scene?

And what is the whole thing meant to achieve? Highlighting the importance of the anti-fur message? Persuading people to go vegan? Creating contempt for people who wear fur? Delegitimizing fur? I think it's irrational—and evidence of a break with reality—to believe this act could accomplish any of those things. Not to mention believing the routinely irrational things common to all violent crime.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:45 pm 
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I'd say that some violent crimes are a lot more rational than others. For instance, a person who shoots another person during a robbery: the motive is (very generally speaking) obtaining money from the robbery and then disposing of the victim/witness who might result in the perpetrator being caught and punished. Is that a good reason to kill someone? Hell no! Is it reasonably understandable? I'd say yes. The perpetrator's means to the desired end are socially unacceptable but practically understandable.

Also, I think that saying all violent crime is equally irrational really downplays a lot of the class elements at play.

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 Post subject: Re: AR person tries to put out a hit on someone wearing fur
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Also, yes, to what Footface said above.

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