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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:27 pm 
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There are some major problems with how the census defines race/ethnicity and certainly they are not the authority of what race versus ethnicity means. If you are Hispanic, they basically tell you to pick white for race if you aren't black (or Asian). Also, different Latino groups might identify with white whereas others do not. But you can't really get accurate answers from the census because they lead you to put a certain answer. Since race is not a biological concept, but a social one, I certainly don't see why I (half white, half Mexican) have to call myself white. I am mestiza or brown. I am not going to go around calling myself a white Hispanic or a brown Hispanic, but I am Hispanic. I do consider myself a person of color, even if my color isn't very dark compared to my father or my husband, who are also Hispanic. And while I don't want to compare myself with Zimmerman because I am not at all happy with what happened, I don't think we have to go around pretending that he isn't what he says he is. We don't call President Obama a white black because he is half white.


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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Why are so many people saying that it is "offensive" and "problematic" for people to question the jury's verdict and the judicial process? While at the same time saying we need to learn from the verdict and move on. How do we learn without questioning?

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:50 pm 
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I'm just wondering what we're supposed to learn. That if there's two sides to every story all you have to do is kill the other side and you get to give the story that you want? Great lesson, I'm moved.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Fee wrote:
I'm just wondering what we're supposed to learn. That if there's two sides to every story all you have to do is kill the other side and you get to give the story that you want? Great lesson, I'm moved.


<3 Leave no witnesses.

A friend of mine was in a fatal car wreck with a truck, that killed his father in law and left him in a coma for months. Because of that, only the trucker's version of the events was heard, and so there was no real investigation and no repercussions for him. Months later after regaining consciousness, my friend remembered the trucker swerving into his lane and hitting them, which caused the car to spin and it caught fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:06 pm 
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George Zimmerman's parents are going to be on Barbara Walters speaking out about the verdict.

Here was their most recent public statement.
Quote:
"We thank God that our son has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Although we have always known that our son was not guilty, the State of Florida utilized significant resources to conducted a clearly malicious, unfounded prosecution. We sincerely hope that more of the truth will become available and that all responsible will be held fully accountable for their truly egregious actions.

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimm ... z2ZEkL2xWT


Trayvon's parents are urging everyone to be peaceful. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rld3f4

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:07 pm 
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kimba wrote:
There are some major problems with how the census defines race/ethnicity and certainly they are not the authority of what race versus ethnicity means. If you are Hispanic, they basically tell you to pick white for race if you aren't black (or Asian). Also, different Latino groups might identify with white whereas others do not. But you can't really get accurate answers from the census because they lead you to put a certain answer. Since race is not a biological concept, but a social one, I certainly don't see why I (half white, half Mexican) have to call myself white. I am mestiza or brown. I am not going to go around calling myself a white Hispanic or a brown Hispanic, but I am Hispanic. I do consider myself a person of color, even if my color isn't very dark compared to my father or my husband, who are also Hispanic. And while I don't want to compare myself with Zimmerman because I am not at all happy with what happened, I don't think we have to go around pretending that he isn't what he says he is. We don't call President Obama a white black because he is half white.

the concept of who is "white" keeps changing though. at one point, irish, italians and eastern europeans weren't considered white.
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/white11.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm 
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It is also regional. My husband, who is called "indio" (Indian) is Costa Rica by some of his family members and generally thought of as moreno (brown) to signify his darker skin was called white in Mexico because he wasn't dark enough for them to consider him moreno. He definitely does not consider himself white and thinks it is ridiculous that the census wanted to call him white.


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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:19 pm 
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yeah, the census should have a bunch of checkboxes of areas of the world and instead of asking about skin color, they should ask where your ancestors are from.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:39 pm 
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On my ancestors' immigration forms, at least up through the thirties or so, their race is listed as Hebrew. "Color" is a separate question, where they're listed as white. (And sometimes "complexion" is yet another question, where the same person might be listed as light, medium, olive, and dark on different forms.)


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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
George Zimmerman's parents are going to be on Barbara Walters speaking out about the verdict.

Here was their most recent public statement.
Quote:
"We thank God that our son has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Although we have always known that our son was not guilty, the State of Florida utilized significant resources to conducted a clearly malicious, unfounded prosecution. We sincerely hope that more of the truth will become available and that all responsible will be held fully accountable for their truly egregious actions.

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimm ... z2ZEkL2xWT


Trayvon's parents are urging everyone to be peaceful. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rld3f4
Zimmerman's family really need to shut the f*ck up unless they actually want to be seen as monsters. Even if they honestly believe he isn't guilty, can't they find enough common decency to respect that Martin's family lost their child in an unbelievably horrible way? I mean, they won; isn't that enough? Why do they have to grind Trayvon's memory and his grieving family into the dirt, too? No wonder their son appears to be a sociopath.

Then again, none of the Zimmerman family strikes me as having any sensitivity whatsoever; the brother's surreally oblivious statement about how Zimmerman is being "unjustly profiled" was jaw-dropping. But they aren't doing their son/brother any favors by rubbing everyone's face in the fact that he got away with killing an unarmed 17 year old boy; and much less by casting Zimmerman as the victim. All of this gloating and media-courting could backfire in a serious way; I sincerely hope that if this shitshow ends in Zimmerman getting a bullet in his chest, that it isn't fired by a person of color. Because guess what? That would be viewed as a crime. The kind that comes with consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:25 pm 
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I really wish Zimmerman was found guilty. How someone who was advised over the phone by the police to stay where they are, chose to ignore that, follow the kid, kill him is innocent how??????????? He could have done what the police said and stayed where he was, and let the police deal with the kid. But no! And now every gun toting vigilante idiot is justified with their gun toting vigilante......aaacchhhhh. I think my head might explode.


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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:29 pm 
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I am absolutely floored by pretty much every single aspect of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:52 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
George Zimmerman's parents are going to be on Barbara Walters speaking out about the verdict.

Here was their most recent public statement.
Quote:
"We thank God that our son has been found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Although we have always known that our son was not guilty, the State of Florida utilized significant resources to conducted a clearly malicious, unfounded prosecution. We sincerely hope that more of the truth will become available and that all responsible will be held fully accountable for their truly egregious actions.

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimm ... z2ZEkL2xWT


Trayvon's parents are urging everyone to be peaceful. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rld3f4
Zimmerman's family really need to shut the f*ck up unless they actually want to be seen as monsters.

wait!? i thought when tofulish posted it it was an onion-esque tongue-in-cheek statement made by a funny person. they seriously said that!?!?!?!? *head explodey*

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Why are so many people saying that it is "offensive" and "problematic" for people to question the jury's verdict and the judicial process? While at the same time saying we need to learn from the verdict and move on. How do we learn without questioning?


I don't think it's the jury that's the problem. I think it's the law that's the problem. Generally, people don't seem to have a strong enough understanding of the legal process to be able to distinguish between problems with a particular legal process or procedure or proceeding, and a problem with a law. A lot of what I'm seeing thrown around is criticism that the jury or particular jurors didn't think Zimmerman was motivated by racism, and that really misses the mark, I think, legally speaking. Yes, race is obviously a factor in what happened, and how the proceedings played out. As this makes clear, the "stand your ground" law, and related self defense laws can be used to allow actions based in racism to be excused, and that's a terrible state of affairs. However, "racism" is not the finding the jury had to make in order to convict. In terms of the legal standard, it seems to me that the accusations of racism were a red herring that the defense was happy to let fly around, since it distracted from the fact that the prosecution had utterly failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, based on evidence before the court, that Zimmerman had committed either second degree murder or manslaughter.

In this case, it seems pretty clear to me that a law that allows a subjective fear with little or no standard of reasonableness (i.e. that allows a racist person with an unfounded fear of black people) to justify shooting to kill in self defense is a bad law. To me, that's the biggest problem in this case, not anything the jury did. However, there might be serious issues with the instructions the jury was given, or whatever. I've been too busy to read much about that, so if there are issues like that, pardon me. I

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:50 pm 
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i read the thing posted above by vantine of a lawyer's POV of the case, and this last sentence bothers me.

Quote:
Lawyers Mark O'Mara and Don West even shunned the chance to tarnish Martin though the judge had allowed the defense to introduce the slain teen's toxicology report showing he had smoked marijuana.

Their approach was evident at closing. While prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda was mocking and at times shrill, O'Mara was calm and conversational.

Zimmerman's neighborhood watch history? "Tell me one witness who said George Zimmerman patrolled that neighborhood . . . not one," he told jurors.

The belief Zimmerman was the aggressor? "One piece of evidence that my client attacked Trayvon Martin?" O'Mara asked jurors. "Landed one blow even?"


how in the world is that allowable? of COURSE zimmerman was the aggressor! stalking someone doesn't count as aggressive behavior!?

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:02 pm 
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totally agreed, JoPa.

i'm not nearly as upset by the verdict as i am by the widespread fundamental misunderstanding of what racism is and how it behaves. Slate basically told people that they're overreacting and making things worse by protesting and trying to change laws they feel are unjust. the Barbara Walters interview with Zimmerman's parents (which is a trainwreck from beginning to end) shows them invoking the classic we-can't-possibly-be-racist-we're-a-mixed-race-couple. and reading about the outcomes of all the other self-defense/stand your ground cases is causing me despair.

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Last edited by EmperorTomatoKetchup on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:02 pm 
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I think this does a pretty nice job of pointing out that in many ways Zimmerman's "victory" will be a pyrrhic one. (But I still want his asparagus to be in prison.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/1 ... ostpopular

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:04 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
Why are so many people saying that it is "offensive" and "problematic" for people to question the jury's verdict and the judicial process? While at the same time saying we need to learn from the verdict and move on. How do we learn without questioning?


I don't think it's the jury that's the problem. I think it's the law that's the problem. Generally, people don't seem to have a strong enough understanding of the legal process to be able to distinguish between problems with a particular legal process or procedure or proceeding, and a problem with a law. A lot of what I'm seeing thrown around is criticism that the jury or particular jurors didn't think Zimmerman was motivated by racism, and that really misses the mark, I think, legally speaking. Yes, race is obviously a factor in what happened, and how the proceedings played out. As this makes clear, the "stand your ground" law, and related self defense laws can be used to allow actions based in racism to be excused, and that's a terrible state of affairs. However, "racism" is not the finding the jury had to make in order to convict. In terms of the legal standard, it seems to me that the accusations of racism were a red herring that the defense was happy to let fly around, since it distracted from the fact that the prosecution had utterly failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, based on evidence before the court, that Zimmerman had committed either second degree murder or manslaughter.

In this case, it seems pretty clear to me that a law that allows a subjective fear with little or no standard of reasonableness (i.e. that allows a racist person with an unfounded fear of black people) to justify shooting to kill in self defense is a bad law. To me, that's the biggest problem in this case, not anything the jury did. However, there might be serious issues with the instructions the jury was given, or whatever. I've been too busy to read much about that, so if there are issues like that, pardon me. I


Thank you for this, JoPa.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:09 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
i read the thing posted above by vantine of a lawyer's POV of the case, and this last sentence bothers me.

Quote:
Lawyers Mark O'Mara and Don West even shunned the chance to tarnish Martin though the judge had allowed the defense to introduce the slain teen's toxicology report showing he had smoked marijuana.

Their approach was evident at closing. While prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda was mocking and at times shrill, O'Mara was calm and conversational.

Zimmerman's neighborhood watch history? "Tell me one witness who said George Zimmerman patrolled that neighborhood . . . not one," he told jurors.

The belief Zimmerman was the aggressor? "One piece of evidence that my client attacked Trayvon Martin?" O'Mara asked jurors. "Landed one blow even?"


how in the world is that allowable? of COURSE zimmerman was the aggressor! stalking someone doesn't count as aggressive behavior!?

Setting aside that stalking is a particular legal thing, I think was the lawyer was pointing out is that there was no evidence that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical confrontation.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:28 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
so. i wonder if the woman who got 20 years for firing a warning shot, if she had killed her (ex?)husband instead, if she would have gone free.


She was offered a plea bargain which would have meant 3 years. Her husband's sons (ages 10 and 13) from his first marriage were in the vicinity of where she fired the gun. She shot was fired at the wall behind them and ricocheted into the ceiling. The prosecution argued that it could have easily deflected downward which could have killed one of the children.

There was also an altercation between Alexander and her husband after the shooting which left her husband with a swollen eye. Her husband was convicted twice of domestic abuse charges and before the shooting, Marissa Alexander pled no contest to domestic abuse charges. This case was more complicated than it would appear.

I'm not excusing family violence or even suggesting that people who are abused by their partners don't have a right to defend themselves. What I'm suggesting is that shoehorning cases that are not really similar to make a point about the Trayvon Martin case is not helpful.

What would have possibly helped in that case was if there were resources to intervene in what was obviously a volatile relationship with a total of 5 minor children involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:41 pm 
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EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
the Barbara Walters interview with Zimmerman's parents (which is a trainwreck from beginning to end) shows them invoking the classic we-can't-possibly-be-racist-we're-a-mixed-race-couple.


oh my god, when his mom LITERALLY said "I don't see race. I'm colorblind." I wanted to punch through my computer monitor! Seriously, is there a clip somewhere on the cutting room floor of the dad insisting "some of my best friends are black," too?

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
the Barbara Walters interview with Zimmerman's parents (which is a trainwreck from beginning to end) shows them invoking the classic we-can't-possibly-be-racist-we're-a-mixed-race-couple.


oh my god, when his mom LITERALLY said "I don't see race. I'm colorblind." I wanted to punch through my computer monitor! Seriously, is there a clip somewhere on the cutting room floor of the dad insisting "some of my best friends are black," too?
Tell me that didn't happen. OH GOD PLEASE TELL ME SHE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY THAT.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Also, as relieved (and impressed) as I am that the book agent was pressured into dropping the juror as a client, and that the juror subsequently re-evaluated and decided it would be best to simply return to her life as it was before the trial... I seriously have to question a verdict delivered by someone who needs their moral compass calibrated by Twitter.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Erika Soyf*cker wrote:
EmperorTomatoKetchup wrote:
the Barbara Walters interview with Zimmerman's parents (which is a trainwreck from beginning to end) shows them invoking the classic we-can't-possibly-be-racist-we're-a-mixed-race-couple.


oh my god, when his mom LITERALLY said "I don't see race. I'm colorblind." I wanted to punch through my computer monitor! Seriously, is there a clip somewhere on the cutting room floor of the dad insisting "some of my best friends are black," too?
Tell me that didn't happen. OH GOD PLEASE TELL ME SHE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY THAT.


Oh honey, I wish I could.

I wish I could.

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 Post subject: Re: Teen shot in Florida, 911 calls released.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Taking the book deal is tacky, but I don't think writing about her experiences now that the case is over is unethical. What are the chances that if you grabbed 12 random people off the street, one of them wouldn't be willing to be tacky for a large lump payment of cash?


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