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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:05 am 
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This conversation--especially the different perspectives on what shaming occurs around birth (and, I guess, what actually constitutes shaming)--made me curious about what's been said on the PPK because I have memories of this topic coming up. I found a few examples such as:

Quote:
Awww! Thanks! No. My stepmother has weird views about pregnancy and considers herself an expert and I really don't want to be told over and over that I have to avoid a cesarean at all costs because women who have them don't bond with their babies when there is a good chance that I might end up having one.
(From here.)

and

Quote:
I have gotten knee-jerk judgments from some of the more sanctimonious among us (but no one here!) for having a c-section by people who knew nothing of the condition that led to it, including the facts that Phoenix and I would both be dead without the c-section. It's not like I planned to have HELLP syndrome! Every birth is different, and no one should feel guilty for doing what they need to do to make sure everyone comes out of it safely.
(From here.)

and

Quote:
Not that anyone here has said anything, but I hate that some people (again, no one on the PPK) feel the need to tell you over and over again that you *should* have a home birth or even an unassisted home birth. Everyone gets to make their own choices and giving birth isn't a competitive sport where you win if you have an unassisted home birth, place silver if you have an assisted home birth, get bronze for birthing center and fail completely if you end up with a hospital Cesarean.

I just want a healthy baby, and while I don't appreciate people who tell you home births are dangerous, I also don't appreciate people telling you that you've somehow failed or implying that you are going to have an experience that is "less than" a home birth if you end up choosing to go with a hospital.

//rant over//.
(From here.)

So it seems this is something that women in this community have experienced before.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:57 am 
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Since two of those quotes are mine (and both come from my stepmother) I really want to address this, but am mindful of the fact that Dr Apricot just told us that this isn't an appropriate conversation for this thread.

Dr. Apricot wrote:
This is a valid topic of conversation, but maybe it should be moved to its own thread in the playground? It's become about a lot more than body shaming in the course of the discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:01 pm 
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oddspongeout wrote:
I have had it up to here with My Fitness Pal. I like the convenience of tracking to make sure I get basic nutrients (fiber, protein, iron, calcium, etc.). But it will not, absolutely WILL NOT allow you to not track calories. So fine. I set my calorie goal for maintaining my current weight (which is obese my BMI charts, holla!). Now whenever I complete a diary, it yells at me in red letters that eating like that every day would result in gaining weight. Um.

1) NO. IT WILL NOT. USE SOME BASIC BMR CALCULATORS YOU DIPSHITS.
2) Did I ask? I set my own calorie goals. That should be enough. I don't need you telling me "eat 1500 calories or less or you'll be disgusting!!!!!!!!!!" when all I want to do is double-check my protein intake every six months. Fork you all over.

Not EVERYONE wants to be actress-singer-makeup*model-thin. Shocking, right?


If this is at all helpful - sparkpeople allows you to set your calories for maintaining your weight, even if you are obese by bmi standards . I think you may even be able to track nutrition without calories. Just don't tell the spark computer you'd like to lose weight, otherwise it will spit out the standard way-too-low (in my opinion) calorie diet.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:34 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
Ariann wrote:
There's actual shaming of people's choices (you should've done something differently, I am sure your c section wasn't actually necessary and you could have avoided it if you fought harder) and then there is people feeling shamed by others saying things that are not about them and their circumstances or choices at all. I am not saying there are no people of the first variety, there definitely are, and they should be roundly sanctioned by the rest of womankind for their asshattery, but they are really few and far between, and not what people are usually talking about when they say they feel shamed by their births.

How do you know this? How can you speak for a group of women that doesn't include you?


It DOES include me, in fact, and also includes many, many friends who I have spoken to about their births. And I am pretty enmeshed in the evidence-based and "natural" birthing communities online and have never seen statements denigrated women who didn't birth "naturally" from the leading voices in those movements (which have a lot of overlap, as well). I have seen stupid Facebook memes and that's pretty much the height of actual body shaming around birthing "unnaturally" or not breastfeeding I've seen after spending countless hours on this topic. As someone who didn't birth or feed "naturally," and yet seems to have almost exclusively friends who did (or strived to do so), I have had innumerable opportunities to be shamed over that experience and guess what, the only person who actually shamed me in the entire experience was my midwife (who was angry at me for having any agency in the process at all, apparently). That doesn't mean that someone else *hasn't* been shamed by whatever random crasshole on the street or their office or whatever chose to shame them, and it doesn't diminish their experience, but it does mean my hackles are raised when a broad brush is painted over entire movements who have as one of their goals to bring more agency and less shaming to women's bodies and choices around birth and infant-feeding.

I'm happy to move this conversation elsewhere if people would like to continue it.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:37 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29959

This is the new thread for birthing experiences.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:57 pm 
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I thought this was an interesting article. Jennifer Lawrence's Body Shames You More Than You Might Have Realized

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:


oh good lard. some people have way too much time on their hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Heh heh. That article is woman shaming me. I will write a tumblr about it. Link soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:19 pm 
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I thought she had some valid points.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Well, I along with the rest of internet, love Jennifer Lawrence, and I've certainly loved her being so frank about everything in her life, including the fact that she likes to eat and being vocally opposed to the way that her appearance is routinely altered by magazines using Photoshop. And the blogger praises her for her concern " about the effect a too-svelte appearance might have on her audience, who are already bombarded with negative body messages every day."

But what the blogger points to, isn't a criticism of Jennifer Lawrence as much as it about how much part of our discourse bodyshaming is that we often don't even notice it.

For me, it was an interesting discussion of this habit we have of conventionally slender actresses and models being interviewed by magazines while chowing down on a big meal, assuring their audiences that they look like this without ever dieting, and they love McDonalds and bacon-cheeseburgers and cake and they hate exercise, while as the blogger points out, someone like Melissa McCarthy talks about food in a very different way.

And as far as “I’d rather look chubby on screen and like a person in real life.” At what weight are you qualified as a "person?" Being skinny doesn't make you less of a person any more than being at any other weight does.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:24 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
For me, it was an interesting discussion of this habit we have of conventionally slender actresses and models being interviewed by magazines while chowing down on a big meal, assuring their audiences that they look like this without ever dieting, and they love McDonalds and bacon-cheeseburgers and cake and they hate exercise, while as the blogger points out, someone like Melissa McCarthy talks about food in a very different way.
HA! I remember reading somewhere, ages ago, about Kate Moss telling an interviewer that she didn't starve herself to stay thin, and had eaten a cheeseburger (why is it always a cheeseburger?) just the night before; it turned out she'd shared one with three other women. Which is fine, whatever, but I do think the trope of the "skinny actress/model/celebrity who eats like a stevedore while effortlessly maintaining her weight" is kind of interesting because it only goes back a few decades. Somewhere along the way, actresses stopped talking about "watching their figures," and a fair number started effectively denying the effort it takes to look the way they do. (People like Kate Winslet - who has always been at pains to point out that she doesn't actually look like her image on magazine covers, etc. - are a refreshing exception.) I imagine this rhetoric might well have a more negative effect on people who judge themselves against celebrities, because it almost makes an inability to eat whatever they want without the "consequences" of weight gain seem like a personal failing. Knowing that Joan Crawford or whoever made the personal choice to eat a grapefruit for breakfast every day at least sent a more honest message about what it might take to look a certain way.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:10 pm 
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I feel pretty shamed by that article even though I think it makes some very valid points.
I'm probably the same size as Jennifer Lawrence and I enjoy eating and eat whatever I want whenever I want to and in the amounts that I want to. I don't think it's fair to ask women to not talk about the fact that they eat whatever they want because they're slim, just because it is not that way for everyone. I agree that it's highly problematic that people who are on a constant diet lies about it, and sets unrealistic expectations, but on the other hand I know quite a few people who are size 0 and eat whatever they want, because that's just how they were born and our genes are just the way our genes are. I don't think it's fair to assume that people have body image issues because they talk about how much they like eating either.

I agree that it's VERY problematic that our body size is what becomes the deciding issue in whether we are allowed to talk about eating whatever we want, though. Because really, body size has nothing to do with whether or not we should be free to make basic human decisions about things, like what we eat or how much or what we wear or how we should talk about ourselves. But shaming Lawrence's decision to say how she feels about her own body or what she eats is not a good way of opening up that discussion AT ALL. Pointing out how she is being celebrated while people with bigger body sizes are being shamed for saying the exact same thing is a very important point to make.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:18 pm 
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So tired of the Chris Christie fat jokes. I'm not a big fan of his. There seems to be a veritable embarrassment of comedic material surrounding the guy, so why do people ALWAYS have to make the fat jokes? We get it! Dude's big. That is probably the least interesting or relevant thing about him. Feh.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:40 pm 
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Yes yes yes re: Chris Christie fat jokes.

And so many of my wonderfully aware, liberal friends just go for the fat jokes. What the fork people. I have now taken to doing a really pointed looking around the room and saying aloud, "oh, am I the only fat person in the room?" when I hear this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Do you know that the first thing my mom said to me this week, after not seeing me for two years was "Oh you have lost weight. Good for you".
Except I haven't and I am so tired of that being her focus.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:53 pm 
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kfad wrote:
Do you know that the first thing my mom said to me this week, after not seeing me for two years was "Oh you have lost weight. Good for you".
Except I haven't and I am so tired of that being her focus.


kfad, that's terrible! And so, so tiring.

I admit in taking a certain pleasure the last time this happened to me in saying "Actually, I've gained weight" and leaving it at that*.

*True! Gained muscle but still a total chubster.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:48 pm 
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kfad wrote:
Do you know that the first thing my mom said to me this week, after not seeing me for two years was "Oh you have lost weight. Good for you".
Except I haven't and I am so tired of that being her focus.


Sorry, kfad! I hate people like that.

I had a pretty big fitness kick in early 2013, and my body changed: more muscle, less fat. Whatever. I don't think I actually lost any weight. (PS: I think it all came back when I moved out of my parents' house. . . )

When I visited long-distance family after six months of weight change, it was "oh, skinny sponge!" left and right. I still wasn't remotely "skinny" and I didn't need the constant commentary on my weight. I've had a very disordered relationship with food in the past and they know this. . .But body-type "health" is way more important than mental health, right? Ha!

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:54 pm 
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oddspongeout wrote:
When I visited long-distance family after six months of weight change, it was "oh, skinny sponge!" left and right. I still wasn't remotely "skinny" and I didn't need the constant commentary on my weight. I've had a very disordered relationship with food in the past and they know this. . .But body-type "health" is way more important than mental health, right? Ha!


oddspongeout, I'm sorry your family is so thoughtless. Family body commentary makes me so uncomfortable, ugh.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:21 pm 
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Me too. . .Like, there are so much more worthwhile things you could compliment me on. "Your fat cells shrunk and your muscle increased" is not one of them. That's like saying "oh you got a new freckle," at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
Yes yes yes re: Chris Christie fat jokes.

And so many of my wonderfully aware, liberal friends just go for the fat jokes.

Interesting how that works. Yet these same people would deny they judge people on their looks. Because of coarse, it's so uncommon.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:56 am 
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Nooo, I'm so disappointed. I've seen a lot of media outlets report that Jennifer Lawrence was disappointed to kiss Christian Bale for their roles in American Hustle because Bale had to put on some extra pounds for the character. The quote that keeps popping up is "he's fat man, not Batman." So much for not snarking about people's weight, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:43 pm 
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That is so disappointing. I am kind of surprised at the fat shaming, because (see the article I posted upthread) she always talks about how stupid it is to diet and people should eat whatever they want. I guess she meant unless they get fat.
http://blog.chron.com/celebritybuzz/201 ... bale-kiss/

And I still find it troubling that she refers to herself as being obese for an actress. I don't see how playing into that particular stereotype that all actresses are very thin helps anyone. If you see Hollywood actresses as a standard of beauty (and that is what they are sold to us as), and you do a gorgeous photoshoot of an incredibly beautiful woman calling herself obese, how does it not make impressionable people think that they have to be that thin or thinner to be beautiful.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... dards.html

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:30 pm 
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After the last time you posted an article about her, Tofulish, I tried to look into it. It seems like the only person out there who refers to her as "fat" or "obese" is herself. The way she talks about her own weight (and other's!) makes me think that she is more likely to be really aggressive about hiding an eating disorder, than being in a healthy place mentally. Obviously I've never met the girl, but from the ( probably quite unreliable) interviews, she seems to be the only person who really gives a shiitake about her figure in Hollywood.
If she's suffering from a dysmorphed body image it makes sense why she talks so much about weight and why she finds it repulsive that other people gain.

It just makes me sad that body size is such a big issue and that people seem to find it totally okay to talk about all the time. Why? Really! Why?!


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:18 pm 
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smoothie wrote:
After the last time you posted an article about her, Tofulish, I tried to look into it. It seems like the only person out there who refers to her as "fat" or "obese" is herself. The way she talks about her own weight (and other's!) makes me think that she is more likely to be really aggressive about hiding an eating disorder, than being in a healthy place mentally. Obviously I've never met the girl, but from the ( probably quite unreliable) interviews, she seems to be the only person who really gives a shiitake about her figure in Hollywood.
If she's suffering from a dysmorphed body image it makes sense why she talks so much about weight and why she finds it repulsive that other people gain.

It just makes me sad that body size is such a big issue and that people seem to find it totally okay to talk about all the time. Why? Really! Why?!
I completely agree with you, and think you are spot on. It's been my experience that many conventionally "attractive" women who are at such great pains to publicize how "defiant" and/or "comfortable" they are being "fat" or - a euphemism that makes me cringe - "curvy" are, to paraphrase Hamlet's mom, protesting too much. (Apologies for all the scare quotes, but they seemed necessary in the context of this conversation.)

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:46 pm 
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I don't know, I think it also might be one of those cases of reporters and media focusing on one thing because it's become a "Jennifer Lawrence thing" that she talks openly about weight and food and stuff. Since they rarely show both sides of the interviews, it might look like she's preoccupied with her size but in reality it's also probably that every question they're asking her is about her size. So she answers, they only print or show sound bites and now she looks like she's totally preoccupied with how she looks.

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