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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:29 pm 
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That happens often with female athletes. I don't think it has much to do with jealousy though. I think it has a lot to do with women who challenge traditional gender stereotypes of what women should look like and what they should do. Sports coverage is often at pains to show "pretty" female athletes and make note that they love being feminine too. It wasn't so long ago that a race official tried to forcibly remove a woman who was running the Boston marathon because women weren't allowed to do it.
Bring on that Title IX.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:30 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:

God this is nutso. You would think she was like the fattest ugliest woman ever from reading those comments and she just looked like a normal cute girl to me! It is bad enough to have hateful thoughts towards women but I don't understand why people have to publicly denounce women they don't think are attractive. It's like, what does that have to do with anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:34 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
That happens often with female athletes. I don't think it has much to do with jealousy though. I think it has a lot to do with women who challenge traditional gender stereotypes of what women should look like and what they should do. Sports coverage is often at pains to show "pretty" female athletes and make note that they love being feminine too. It wasn't so long ago that a race official tried to forcibly remove a woman who was running the Boston marathon because women weren't allowed to do it.
Bring on that Title IX.


Yeah, I thought about that as well, actually. Well, not the Boston Marathon thing, though I did read about that in Runner's World (I think last year was an anniversary of it?). But yeah; I guess it just goes down to women are supposed to be pretty and skinny and know their places.

Well fork that shiitake.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:36 pm 
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What the hell? What is wrong with people? Also, this shiitake makes me hate the internet, where people can hide behind their computer screens and say absolutely horrible things with no consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:37 pm 
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Oh, that tumblr is showing a bunch of tweeter feeds. I wouldn't expect any sense from a bunch of tweeter feeds. They probably spend their time saying that about lots of women. I had heard about the BBC remarks and I think that is par for the course in sports reporting on female athletes, especially women of color. The Williams sisters, B. Griner. S. Bonaly, Caster Semenya.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:42 pm 
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LazySmurf wrote:
ndpittman wrote:

God this is nutso. You would think she was like the fattest ugliest woman ever from reading those comments and she just looked like a normal cute girl to me!



I wish I had a link to a better explanation than I can provide of why 'but she's not even fat!' can be a stigmatizing/ineffective response in and of itself, but I don't, so until somebody does I will have to take my own stab at it.

I know your heart is probably in the right place, but when you use language like "a normal cute girl" to set her apart from the *real* fatties, it's taking for granted the same assumptions that are behind body shaming. That there is an acceptable level of body fat, and an unacceptable one, and that the real crime here wasn't seeing her appearance instead of her accomplishments (and I know you mention that later in the post, so I think we'd both agree that's the real wrong committed here), but that instead it was somehow their getting it 'wrong' because she was not actually fat.


The fact that in many ways she's actually conventionally attractive may underscore how exaggerated and brutal body shaming can be, but I don't think it is, in itself, what makes it wrong. It would, of course, be wrong if she WERE the ugliest (however that's defined), fattest woman ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:53 pm 
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Also, I wonder if some men just don't know how to relate to women at all outside of appearance. There's a local news story here that a mayoral aide got in trouble for making remarks about a female speaker's looks as he was introducing her. And sportscasters seem to have problems being able to simply comment on the level of athleticism and achievement for athletes. The idea that women are there to be looked at is so ingrained in our society that some men (and women) just don't get that there might be something else, like dunking the basketball, winning Wimbledon, running for office, chairing committees, genetic engineering, sculpting, building roads, designing buildings, etc, etc, there to be talked about.
And there are million dollar "beauty" and diet industries in place to ensure a lot of marketing toward the idea that women care heavily and primarily about appearance.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:59 pm 
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That makes so much sense, pandacookie. I mean, how many articles are going around about 'how to talk to little girls,' reminding people to say more to little girls than that they are pretty or whatever. It's correlation between goodness and beauty is ingrained at a very young age.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:11 pm 
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I would love to see Bartoli kick every single one of those commenters butts at tennis. "Oh, you think i'm fat and didn't deserve to win? Well take THIS" *slams ball into their side of court, does victory lap while sexist buttface realizes how wrong he is*

How do you guys deal with people making negative comments about their body, or saying how they NEED to lose weight, or how they feel so bad for eating a cookie? I'm working at a summer camp. A lot of the counselors are high school girls and i've been hearing a lot of this language lately. One girl said she wasn't going to eat any of the sweets (it's a cooking camp, full of sugar) and then was bashing herself when she couldn't help it and ate one cookie. These aren't people i know very well, but i still wish i had something nice to say in response. I have mixed feelings about saying anything at all, because it's her body and who am i to tell her what to do with it?

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:19 pm 
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annabazoo wrote:
How do you guys deal with people making negative comments about their body, or saying how they NEED to lose weight, or how they feel so bad for eating a cookie? I'm working at a summer camp. A lot of the counselors are high school girls and i've been hearing a lot of this language lately. One girl said she wasn't going to eat any of the sweets (it's a cooking camp, full of sugar) and then was bashing herself when she couldn't help it and ate one cookie. These aren't people i know very well, but i still wish i had something nice to say in response. I have mixed feelings about saying anything at all, because it's her body and who am i to tell her what to do with it?


I hear crepe like this from women all the time. I usually just say something like 'It's ok to treat yourself!' and 'Don't be silly!' If I know the person better I say something about how everything is awesome in moderation or that as long as you're active, a cookie here and there isn't going to change their body. Also, I like to be an advocate for eating awesome things by eating them, awesomely, in front of other people. Lead by example!

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:25 pm 
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If it is someone I don't know well and they are making comments like that to me, I would tend to just shrug and nonchalantly say "it's just a cookie" or "don't you like sweets?" or I kind of avoid it. There are very few people I feel comfortable talking about weight to because it can become such a loaded issue and mostly I find if you don't respond to those "I'm so fat/I need to lose weight/look at my gross skin/ugh, my hair is so flat" comments people stop making them around you. It sometimes feels like it is how girls have been taught to communicate with one another, almost like a "nice day we're having" equivalent.

I don't know if it is the right way to deal with it but it is how I handle it around people I don't know well.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:30 pm 
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It's fat talk! And women are conditioned to do it. If you're comfortable you can call it out for what it is, in a nice way.
Something nice and easy along the lines of "Hey, I know you may not realize it but talking about needing to lose weight and being guilty about the food you eat is part of the patriarcical plot to make women disappear. Please love yourself for who you are and what you are doing and hang the rest. What sort of activities are you good at? What good books have you read? Do you make any art? Spliced any DNA recently?"

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:58 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
It's fat talk! And women are conditioned to do it. If you're comfortable you can call it out for what it is, in a nice way.
Something nice and easy along the lines of "Hey, I know you may not realize it but talking about needing to lose weight and being guilty about the food you eat is part of the patriarcical plot to make women disappear. Please love yourself for who you are and what you are doing and hang the rest. What sort of activities are you good at? What good books have you read? Do you make any art? Spliced any DNA recently?"
Yeah, on the one hand, the psychological space and ethical/moral significance people accord a damned cookie - "Oh, I shouldn't; I'm trying to be/have been good!" - is mind-blowing, but as a recovered/ing ED sufferer, I'm all too familiar with how slippery a slope that can be. I have a friend who addresses it in a light-hearted, good-humored, but firm way with the phrase, "No fat talk!" before changing the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:00 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
pandacookie wrote:
It's fat talk! And women are conditioned to do it. If you're comfortable you can call it out for what it is, in a nice way.
Something nice and easy along the lines of "Hey, I know you may not realize it but talking about needing to lose weight and being guilty about the food you eat is part of the patriarcical plot to make women disappear. Please love yourself for who you are and what you are doing and hang the rest. What sort of activities are you good at? What good books have you read? Do you make any art? Spliced any DNA recently?"
Yeah, on the one hand, the psychological space and ethical/moral significance people accord a damned cookie - "Oh, I shouldn't; I'm trying to be/have been good!" - is mind-blowing, but as a recovered/ing ED sufferer, I'm all too familiar with how slippery a slope that can be. I have a friend who addresses it in a light-hearted, good-humored, but firm way with the phrase, "No fat talk!" before changing the subject.


Truth. And I like your friend's response!

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:19 pm 
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Today, I took a really cute photo (with my shitty camera phone, but still) of Brian with the dogs and a cat trying to ram her head into his armpit. One of hix ex-army buddies commented and said something like, "I can tell you haven't done PT in awhile, do I need to come over there and take your Dr. Pepper and Oreos away?"

I gave Brian and opportunity to deal with it before I started screaming at the guy (who I don't like and his wife was always a bisque to me so I had no problem doing so) and he simply deleted the comment.

1. Why would you make a comment like that on what is clearly a cute and happy photo (or okay ever, but you know)?
2. You can tell from a low-quality instagram photo where Brian is on the other side of the room and sitting down that he's a total forking fatass deserving of mockery? Does your spider sense also tell you that he runs three times a week and just did a 5K?
3. How do you think your wife, who is and has been a heavy woman for your whole marriage, feel if she saw a comment of you mocking someone for their (perceived) fatness? Would you make that comment to your wife? Would you make that comment in a conversation in front of her (like Arianna mentioned people making fat comments about Chris Christie like she wasn't there)? Would you like it if I went to one of your many family photos and left a comment saying you both need your cookies taken away? It would make just as sense if I did it since none of us are skinny people.

It may be PMS rage, but I am really forking mad that he shiitake all over a sight that made me very, very happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:07 pm 
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I saw that comment and thought the guy was a crasshole! I was like, why the hell would you ever say something like that to another person?

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Dude, that sucks! It was a totally cute picture! I didn't see the comment, but jeez oh wheez.

In conclusion, yes, I have had enough of body shaming.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:20 pm 
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The hell?? I saw the (completely adorable in every conceivable way) photo, but not the crasshole comment. What makes people think it's okay to be like that? I was raised to understand that unsolicited personal comments are rude.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:06 am 
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Yeah the guy on the BBC made some horrible comment about her. People truly do suck.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:54 am 
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annak wrote:
I wish I had a link to a better explanation than I can provide of why 'but she's not even fat!' can be a stigmatizing/ineffective response in and of itself, but I don't, so until somebody does I will have to take my own stab at it.

I know your heart is probably in the right place, but when you use language like "a normal cute girl" to set her apart from the *real* fatties, it's taking for granted the same assumptions that are behind body shaming. That there is an acceptable level of body fat, and an unacceptable one, and that the real crime here wasn't seeing her appearance instead of her accomplishments (and I know you mention that later in the post, so I think we'd both agree that's the real wrong committed here), but that instead it was somehow their getting it 'wrong' because she was not actually fat.

The fact that in many ways she's actually conventionally attractive may underscore how exaggerated and brutal body shaming can be, but I don't think it is, in itself, what makes it wrong. It would, of course, be wrong if she WERE the ugliest (however that's defined), fattest woman ever.


I'd like to add to this from my brain-fog addled state.

Making a statement like "but they're not even a fat person" could indicate that they shouldn't be called fat/body shamed as it's not perceived to be factually correct. This could then feed into the idea that it might be ok to make body-shaming comments about a fat person with factually correct insults.

The negativity behind the name-calling, whether it's true or not, is still there and the intent isn't to be truthful, just hurtful.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:11 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
I saw that comment and thought the guy was a crasshole! I was like, why the hell would you ever say something like that to another person?


I saw it too and it really confused me at first because I couldn't grasp why someone would be so douchy to a friend on FB (or at all!) and also the photo was so forking cute that I couldn't understand why that would be what you took away from it!


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:49 pm 
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The worst instance of the self-shaming/guilting I ever experienced was when I went out to dinner at an, uh, eatery known for its spandex-attired waitstaff and spicy bird-based cuisine. It was mostly chiefs' wives from my husband department and the wives of a few more junior sailors, and I felt like I should get to know them a bit better and was trying to be social.

Anyway, the entire time they were talking about how much they'd exercised (like, how many HOURS) that morning in order to 'deserve' to order the wings, and how their diets were going, and that sort of thing. I was basically nursing my beer feeling totally out of place as the only one not on a diet or who hadn't done any "penance" to be there.

And the thing about the military is, it in itself can be a very brutally sizeist culture, particularly for women. One woman in the group was prior enlisted and had had her PAY docked because she failed to meet the weight standards, despite being very active. Until a few years ago, you could still pass the PRT if you were able to score excellent on all the fitness categories, but now you have to make the weight standards regardless of performance. I think this is ridiculous. And my husband would be the first to tell you that on his actual ship doing actual work, what you really want is a VARIETY of people and skills and abilities and body types. Sometimes you need a giant muscular dude to pull on a rope to get something heavy hoisted up, and sometimes you need a tiny little guy to climb into a small area. It's really not in any one's interests to do the weight policing they do, so I don't understand it.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:27 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
It's fat talk! And women are conditioned to do it. If you're comfortable you can call it out for what it is, in a nice way.
Something nice and easy along the lines of "Hey, I know you may not realize it but talking about needing to lose weight and being guilty about the food you eat is part of the patriarcical plot to make women disappear. Please love yourself for who you are and what you are doing and hang the rest. What sort of activities are you good at? What good books have you read? Do you make any art? Spliced any DNA recently?"


I love this. Especially the DNA part.

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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:22 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
It's fat talk! And women are conditioned to do it. If you're comfortable you can call it out for what it is, in a nice way.
Something nice and easy along the lines of "Hey, I know you may not realize it but talking about needing to lose weight and being guilty about the food you eat is part of the patriarcical plot to make women disappear. Please love yourself for who you are and what you are doing and hang the rest. What sort of activities are you good at? What good books have you read? Do you make any art? Spliced any DNA recently?"


Not just to make women disappear but to distract them from real life. It makes me crazy how much time women spend agonizing over and feeling guilty about food, exercise, body shape and not doing/focusing on other things that would make them feel good and happy and alive.


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 Post subject: Re: Had enough of body shaming?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:58 am 
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I actually really like eating right and excising. When I pass up food it's because it either not vegan or something I either consider unhealthy, or something like, I ate a cookie yesterday so I am not eating cake today. I've been put down for being conscientious with comments like "your skinny you can afford it eat it". What the fork does that even mean? I'm skinny because I made a choice to look a certain way, I worked for it and I enjoy it and I'm not going to screw that up because people think I need to eat unhealthy foods.
I also really like going to the gym and working out, and taking different exercise classes. It's who I am and it makes me happy.
Like I feel like I get shamed for making healthy choices. Like some of the comments in the thread about passing up deserts and exercising, I enjoy exercising a lot. It's disturbing that some people may jump to the conclusion that I do it because of patriarchal society blah blah and not that I actually like it and it makes me happy. Like yea I count calories and exercise and eat right and if I don't do these things than I am not happy. I shouldn't be shamed for doing them. How could you put someone down for exercising, it's a healthy habit!


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