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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:32 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I don't know a lot of older people with baggage attached to the word 'vegan' because most of them don't know what it even means, and if they do they generally equate it only with diet, not the other aspects. I guess it depends on where you live/what you're exposed to, but most of my family has never met another vegan (and honestly, a lot of Brian's family doesn't know/realize that I don't eat dairy, the only people who consistently remember that I don't want the birthday cake are his mom and sister). Not to mention that they don't think of the non-food aspects. I don't think explaining plant-based is any easier than explaining veganism.

If any generation has baggage about the word vegan, it's younger people because of hipster bacon fetishizing and the internet.


A young whippersnapper made a snarky comment about the vegan donut I was buying at the co-op, claiming he was allergic to vegan donuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:32 pm 
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i hate hate hate these fat shaming, pseudo-health-freaks who shame people who do not live up to the 90210-hangingoutonthebeach-bikinibody-stereotype that is being set up as the default "healthy" look. if you feel like wasting your life being borderline orthorexic and spending waaaay too much time worrying about your pseudo-scientific mumbojumbo about not eating fats (which are essential to your health) and "frying in water" then FINE, by all means go ahead. i get it. purity and control can seem awesome, if you're easily tempted by those things. i know i was for A LOT of years.
But DO NOT spread your pseudo-scientific bullshiitake "facts" about health and nutrition around. what the fork is up with that? it's like the second wave of the pro-ana forums. actually, i'm pretty sure it IS the second wave of pro-ED-forums, now moved to blogs owned by people who care waaay too much about being judgemental purists and waaay too little about the fact that they are complete douchebags who should get a forking life or at least a less douchebag-ish hobby.

/end of rant.

ps. i am sorry if i come off as a bit harsh, i just have zero tolerance towards body shaming fake science claims. it really hits a sore nerve, i wish to the inner of my bones that some of these people had been kicked off the internet when i was still suffering from my ED, as it really fired up under my morbidly wrong ideas about how one should eat in order to be healthy. and i am SO happy that i am capable of trusting my doctor to be correct when she says "if you're hungry and there is no food around, anything with calories will do. even chocolate or gummies, it's the calories that counts!". because as long as you don't eat junk food at every single meal, and you have no health issues that makes sugar eating bad for you, it's still ENERGY. and your body needs that.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:47 pm 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
Vantine wrote:
I have no interest in debating the definition of the word vegan and I don't care about vegan purity.
What is a concern is that these particular people are being embraced by vegans and use vegan news sources while pushing their dangerous, ridiculous, and scientifically unsound view of food and health.


Imo, Barnard is fairly evidence-based...Esselstyn less so...while Fuhrman often goes off the deep end.



Quote:
Veganism is not a miracle weight loss plan, you can consume fats and oils while maintaining a healthy body, and going low fat Vegan is not a guaranteed cure all.


There is accumulating evidence that a balanced vegan diet is a good way to lose weight. I also think using this evidence to promote veganism is a smart thing to do.

You made your opinion on Bernard's use of fat shaming clear the last time we discussed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:52 pm 
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We need more Ginny Messina in this thread.

http://www.theveganrd.com/2012/01/shoul ... kinny.html
Quote:
Do people who lose weight on a vegan diet have any advantage in this regard? We don’t know. A handful of studies show that low-fat vegan diets—which achieve calorie reduction through food restrictions—produce weight loss in the short term, but none that show how people fare four or five years down the road. If they regain their weight, then they may perceive a vegan diet as ineffective or may perceive themselves as embarrassing vegan failures.


Quote:
...But don’t fall into the trap of thinking that certain plant foods need to be banned. That’s a fad diet way of thinking.


http://www.theveganrd.com/2011/04/vegan ... -size.html
Quote:
I’ve had quite a number of people tell me that they feel alienated from the vegan community for a number of reasons; one of those reasons is that they don’t feel welcome or like they “fit” in the vegan community because they are not models of vegan health perfection.

But this is not a problem of fat vegans. The problem lies with those who promote veganism as a weight loss diet. Although it’s been great to see so much focus on veganism in the media lately—specifically on Oprah and Martha Stewart—I’ve felt discomfort about promises that going vegan will automatically lead to weight loss.

Going vegan is unlikely to cause weight loss for most people unless they also restrict their food intake in other ways. And even embracing some of those other restrictions—like avoiding all fats—isn’t a guaranteed weight loss plan

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Nice article! I am facebooking it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:22 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
Technically, this group has co-opted the term plant-based. It's been used for a long time by health professionals to mean a diet heavy in produce, grains, and legumes, and light on meat, especially read meat. The original meaning doesn't even address oil.

I always feel very very conflicted about this subject. I know a huge number of people who have turned around their health with this diet, especially people who have put their type 2 diabetes in remission (it's remission, not a cure). But, I think the benefits of this diet are blown way out of proportion. The doctors associated with this movement frequently cherry pick evidence, or exaggerate the strength of evidence. And I hate the ugly attitude of saying things like "enjoy your heart attack" because a person refuses to stop eating meat. There's no diet in the world that can guarantee health.


mollyjade, you always say what I'm thinking, but way better.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
I eat oil so I don't think I qualify for the plant based label, nor do I want to.


I sometimes call myself plant-based and I eat oil. Do I need to turn in my "plant-based" label?


Quote:
Interviewer: And they don't call themselves vegan.
But Dr E is not using the word vegan, but plant based.


I simply don't understand why there is the need to discuss Esselstyn's alleged non-veganess in the first place. (And I have yet to see anyone link to evidence of that turkey dinner.) I have heard Esselstyn use vegan and plant-based interchangeably on several occasions.

2 seconds on google:

http://www.vegparadise.com/24carrot83.html

Interviewer: How long have you been vegan?
Dr Esselstyn: My last meal, which was not plant-based, was April 20, 1984.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Maybe we can just agree that the term plant-based isn't really well defined and means different things to different people. It seems like that's the source of the issue here, so if we drop that we can get back to discussing the video.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:53 pm 
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I just wasted five minutes of my life on google so I can tell you that I was wrong and confused him with Dr. McDougall, who apparently eats turkey at Thanksgiving to prove he's not a vegetarian. I am so glad that you signed up to nit pick about how we shouldn't nit pick.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:08 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I am so glad that you signed up to nit pick about how we shouldn't nit pick.


hahaha!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:10 pm 
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Quote:
Every other Thanksgiving, as a ceremony to prove I am not a vegetarian, I have an ounce of sliced turkey


Creepy and immature.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:18 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
The video in the original post of this thread was produced by Jeff Nelson of Vegsource. Nelson owns Vegsource, it is his personal business. He reads and responds to comments on his youtube videos. Some of the comments in this thread are fairly good. I encourage people to repost them on youtube. You may just open Jeff Nelson's mind or at the least politiely teach him that not everyone appreciates the way he expresses his views.

I don't go to Vegsource because they have articles about things like: water fasting to achieve health, miracle food X will cure disease Y, "visualizations," and fat hating. There is not an emphasis on science based medicine as far as I can tell.

I don't think their approach is helpful and I find the constant drumbeat of fat hating to be offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:24 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
...confused him with Dr. McDougall, who apparently eats turkey at Thanksgiving to prove he's not a vegetarian.

at least he doesn't put it in his soups! (those things are so goood! especially the roasted red pepper one. nom!)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:13 am 
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Vantine wrote:
beforewisdom wrote:
The video in the original post of this thread was produced by Jeff Nelson of Vegsource. Nelson owns Vegsource, it is his personal business. He reads and responds to comments on his youtube videos. Some of the comments in this thread are fairly good. I encourage people to repost them on youtube. You may just open Jeff Nelson's mind or at the least politiely teach him that not everyone appreciates the way he expresses his views.

I don't go to Vegsource because they have articles about things like: water fasting to achieve health, miracle food X will cure disease Y, "visualizations," and fat hating. There is not an emphasis on science based medicine as far as I can tell.

I don't think their approach is helpful and I find the constant drumbeat of fat hating to be offensive.


I agree with you on all points.

I wasn't suggesting going to Vegsource, but clicking on the video in the original post to put some of the good comments here on Jeff Nelson's ( "headveg" ) youtube page for the video.
I've found with Nelson that if you make your point in a completely non-conforntational manner he may not agree with you, but you will get heard.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:22 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I just wasted five minutes of my life on google so I can tell you that I was wrong and confused him with Dr. McDougall, who apparently eats turkey at Thanksgiving to prove he's not a vegetarian. I am so glad that you signed up to nit pick about how we shouldn't nit pick.


Amazing and he makes soy foods out to be poison.

I got into Dr. McDougall's books during the 1990s. He suffered a stroke at a young age because of a SAD diet. He wrote that during medical school he got introduced to alternative diets, but he got a lot of shiitake for it both as student and later as a doctor. He never liked the label "vegetarian" or "vegan" and I am guessing that is why. He probably thinks those words will keep "his" ideas from being listened to by more people.

Over 5 years ago I saw him speak at Summerfest. He seemed to be bitter and angry - my guess was from not getting listened to all of those years.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:25 am 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
I simply don't understand why there is the need to discuss Esselstyn's alleged non-veganess in the first place. (And I have yet to see anyone link to evidence of that turkey dinner.) I have heard Esselstyn use vegan and plant-based interchangeably on several occasions.

2 seconds on google:

http://www.vegparadise.com/24carrot83.html

Interviewer: How long have you been vegan?
Dr Esselstyn: My last meal, which was not plant-based, was April 20, 1984.


Thanks for clearing that up. Given the communities around these people and the AR/vegan community I don't think it is nitpicking to set the record straight in regards to who is a flexitarian and who isn't. No disrespect to anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:32 am 
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I posted some comments over at Jeff Nelson's (Vegsource, "headveg" ) youtube page for the video in the original post to this thread. I told him more people would be likely to listen to him (and he might be personally more happy ) if he stopped hating on fat people.

A person's appearance isn't always a reflection of their nutrition, health, or fitness knowledge. I've met plenty of ignorant good looking athletes who have gotten lucky with their genetics and cicurmstances. I've also met some incredibly knowledable professionals who haven't placed a high priority in their lives in being buff.

However, as a group, I've noticed that the general public isn't that thoughtful. As a group, the general public will not accept a diet book from a non-slim author. Until Nelson's video I had never seen pictures of some of those authors. It made an impression on me.

I also told that to Nelson and it was a shame he was driving people away with the hate, because those images could have been very effective in getting people to avoid animal based popular low-carb diets.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:37 am 
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There are legitimate, medical reason to not load up on that much meat and cheese. But the truth is that you can eat animal foods and fats and be healthy. To insist on anything else sounds, well, culty.

Only vegans on the internet care about the definition of vegan.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:56 am 
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Vantine wrote:
There are legitimate, medical reason to not load up on that much meat and cheese. But the truth is that you can eat animal foods and fats and be healthy. To insist on anything else sounds, well, culty.


I agree, you can eat oil and fat and remain healthy. The Esselstyn/Ornish type of very low fat diets have been clinically proven to be helpful as therapeutic diets for people with cardiovascular issues, so it isn't a cult unless medical research is a cult.

Quote:
Only vegans on the internet care about the definition of vegan.


Those vegans also live in the real world and they care because it is a deeply held ethical belief for them. They just don't have conversations with people in person, in public abou it to avoid needlessly offending people for little value.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:29 am 
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Vantine wrote:
Only vegans on the internet care about the definition of vegan.

we just want to have to avoid creating a new word after vegan starts to mean vegetarian. (already vegetarian is starting to mean pescetarian. and even worse, it used to mean vegan!)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:46 am 
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supercarrot wrote:
Vantine wrote:
Only vegans on the internet care about the definition of vegan.

we just want to have to avoid creating a new word after vegan starts to mean vegetarian. (already vegetarian is starting to mean pescetarian. and even worse, it used to mean vegan!)

It is impossible to control the popular use of language. I worry more about what people do than what a word means. True fact is that nice people who give a rat's patooty about other people don't make videos like that. I don't care if the call themselves members of the Royal Order of Purple Eggplant Worshiping Banana Farmers.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:20 am 
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Vantine wrote:
There are legitimate, medical reason to not load up on that much meat and cheese. But the truth is that you can eat animal foods and fats and be healthy. To insist on anything else sounds, well, culty.

This times a million.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:46 am 
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Vantine wrote:
True fact is that nice people who give a rat's patooty about other people don't make videos like that. I don't care if the call themselves members of the Royal Order of Purple Eggplant Worshiping Banana Farmers.


My sentiment exactly. I don't know exactly what it is. Maybe there is a clique of vegan/quasi-vegan peeps out there that high-five each other for trying to point fingers and call people fat. If so, I rather not be associated with them in any manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks for clearing that up. Given the communities around these people and the AR/vegan community I don't think it is nitpicking to set the record straight in regards to who is a flexitarian and who isn't.


If someone were to accuse me of not being vegan I would want the record set straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:31 pm 
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If someone were to accuse me of not being vegan, I'd say whatever and go on to eat my noochy kale.

Oh great, now I want some kale.

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