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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:11 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Vantine wrote:
Fee wrote:
And your football team is pretty shitty, so where's your god now?

I will worship you, Fee.


I will also worship Fee. Anybody else?

I'm in!

We have orgies right?

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Is this going to be a monotheistic thing, or are you going to later reveal that you are actually three persons in one? Because I'm not down with that. Pick a personality and stick to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:14 pm 
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I was going to suggest a Feechanal but that sounds like some kind of weird sex poop fight. I don't know. Maybe my followers are into that.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:15 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


In the video game Okami you get to be the Shinto goddess Amaterasu, and you level up by gaining praise, usually by doing something nice, like feeding animals and reviving trees, and doing good deeds for humans. I think by now any god would have reached the maximum level, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:15 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


the word worship, much like the word slave means has a different meaning in relation to what we think of as the definition.

God creates us so that we (as eternal souls) will only find happiness and completion in loving relationship with Him. As Keller put it, there has been an eternal dance between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created us to join in the dance... the eternal love relationship and community with Him. That is what worship means... not standing on a cloud and bowing down all day... again, i would recommend giving a few Christian books a shot. if for no other reason as to fully understand the belief system you oppose.

Start with Tim Keller, John Piper, C.S. Lewis...


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Fee wrote:
I was going to suggest a Feechanal but that sounds like some kind of weird sex poop fight. I don't know. Maybe my followers are into that.


I think you mean Felchanal.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:24 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
God creates us so that we (as eternal souls) will only find happiness and completion in loving relationship with Him. As Keller put it, there has been an eternal dance between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created us to join in the dance... the eternal love relationship and community with Him. That is what worship means... not standing on a cloud and bowing down all day... again, i would recommend giving a few Christian books a shot. if for no other reason as to fully understand the belief system you oppose.

Start with Tim Keller, John Piper, C.S. Lewis...


I thought you threw in the towel?

I find it insulting when people tell me that I can't be happy or complete without their god.

And I hope you realize that many of us have read plenty of Christian books of all sorts in an effort to better understand that belief system. Some of us grew up in Christianity, and some of us read about it because we would like to have a decent understanding of the world's largest religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:28 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
God created us to join in the dance...

...but don't try to change any of the steps, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
linanil wrote:
Vantine wrote:
I will worship you, Fee.


I will also worship Fee. Anybody else?

I'm in!

We have orgies right?

You know it!


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:37 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


the word worship, much like the word slave means has a different meaning in relation to what we think of as the definition.

God creates us so that we (as eternal souls) will only find happiness and completion in loving relationship with Him. As Keller put it, there has been an eternal dance between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created us to join in the dance... the eternal love relationship and community with Him. That is what worship means... not standing on a cloud and bowing down all day... again, i would recommend giving a few Christian books a shot. if for no other reason as to fully understand the belief system you oppose.

Start with Tim Keller, John Piper, C.S. Lewis...


I'm not sure why you assume everyone who is atheist or just doesn't believe in that particular god hasn't done research. I spent 18 years of my life as a practicing catholic, raised in a catholic family, going to a catholic school, going to mass on sundays, and taken a few theology classes in college. My parents, brother, grandparents, aunts, and uncles are all catholic. I'm not ignorant about Christianity.

People can believe all they want, the power of faith is awesome sauce, but there's no god to me. Other than myself. And maybe Joss Whedon. You can swear up and down that there is one, but if there is a god and he wanted me to believe in him, he'd make me.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


the word worship, much like the word slave means has a different meaning in relation to what we think of as the definition.

God creates us so that we (as eternal souls) will only find happiness and completion in loving relationship with Him. As Keller put it, there has been an eternal dance between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created us to join in the dance... the eternal love relationship and community with Him. That is what worship means... not standing on a cloud and bowing down all day... again, i would recommend giving a few Christian books a shot. if for no other reason as to fully understand the belief system you oppose.

Start with Tim Keller, John Piper, C.S. Lewis...


I am glad you are happy with your beliefs but they aren't mine. I was raised Christian, studied various Christian religions, read a good portion of the bible, etc. I found happiness by trying to mold my beliefs into Christianity.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:54 pm 
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just mumbles wrote:
gobigblue1982 wrote:
God created us to join in the dance...

...but don't try to change any of the steps, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of suffering.


rather than type out a rebuttal to this i will simply let you read through some stuff from Tim Keller regarding this subject. This says all that needs to be said better than i could say it.

What is hell, then? It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives. J.I.Packer writes: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen . . . [H]ell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshipping him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves." (J.I.Packer, Concise Theology p.262-263.) If the thing you most want is to worship God in the beauty of his holiness, then that is what you will get (Ps 96:9-13.) If the thing you most want is to be your own master, then the holiness of God will become an agony, and the presence of God a terror you will flee forever (Rev 6:16; cf. Is 6:1-6.)

Why is this so extremely important to stress in our preaching and teaching today? The idea of hell is implausible to people because they see it as unfair that infinite punishment would be meted out for comparably minor, finite false steps (like not embracing Christianity.) Also, almost no one knows anyone (including themselves) that seem to be bad enough to merit hell. But the Biblical teaching on hell answers both of these objections. First, it tells us that people only get in the afterlife what they have most wanted-either to have God as Savior and Master or to be their own Saviors and Masters. Secondly, it tells us that hell is a natural consequence. Even in this world it is clear that self-centeredness rather than God-centeredness makes you miserable and blind. The more self-centered, self-absorbed, self-pitying, and self-justifying people are, the more breakdowns occur, relationally, psychologically, and even physically. They also go deeper into denial about the source of their problems.

On the other hand, a soul that has decided to center its life on God and his glory moves toward increasing joy and wholeness. We can see both of these 'trajectories' even in this life. But if, as the Bible teaches, our souls will go on forever, then just imagine where these two kinds of souls will be in a billion years. Hell is simply one's freely chosen path going on forever. We wanted to get away from God, and God, in his infinite justice, sends us where we wanted to go.

In the parable of Luke 16:19ff, Jesus tells us of a rich man who goes to hell and who is now in torment and horrible thirst because of the fire (v.24) But there are interesting insights into what is going on in his soul. He urges Abraham to send a messenger to go and warn his still-living brothers about the reality of hell. Commentators have pointed out that this is not a gesture of compassion, but rather an effort at blame-shifting. He is saying that he did not have a chance, he did not have adequate information to avoid hell. That is clearly his point, because Abraham says forcefully that people in this life have been well-informed through the Scriptures. It is intriguing to find exactly what we would expect-even knowing he is in hell and knowing God has sent him there, he is deeply in denial, angry at God, unable to admit that it was a just decision, wishing he could be less miserable (v.24) but in no way willing to repent or seek the presence of God.

I believe one of the reasons the Bible tells us about hell is so it can act like 'smelling salts' about the true danger and seriousness of even minor sins. However, I've found that only stressing the symbols of hell (fire and darkness) in preaching rather than going into what the symbols refer to (eternal, spiritual decomposition) actually prevents modern people from finding hell a deterrent. Some years ago I remember a man who said that talk about the fires of hell simply didn't scare him, it seemed too far-fetched, even silly.

So I read him lines from C.S. Lewis:

"Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."

To my surprise he got very quiet and said, "Now that scares me to death." He almost immediately began to see that hell was a) perfectly fair and just, and b) something that he realized he might be headed for if he didn't change. If we really want skeptics and non-believers to be properly frightened by hell, we cannot simply repeat over and over that 'hell is a place of fire.' We must go deeper into the realities that the Biblical images represent. When we do so, we will find that even secular people can be affected.

We run from the presence of God and therefore God actively gives us up to our desire (Romans 1:24, 26.) Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God (Luke 16:26.) Every indication is that those doors continue to stay forever barred from the inside. Though every knee and tongue in hell knows that Jesus is Lard (Philippians 2:10-11,) no one can seek or want that Lordship without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3.This is why we can say that no one goes to hell who does not choose both to go and to stay there. What could be more fair than that?


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:54 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:
linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


In the video game Okami you get to be the Shinto goddess Amaterasu, and you level up by gaining praise, usually by doing something nice, like feeding animals and reviving trees, and doing good deeds for humans. I think by now any god would have reached the maximum level, though.


I love you more as the days go by. I will worship Shy Mox.

Also, if god descends from the heavens to speak to me, he's got some 'splainin' to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:02 pm 
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One of the doctors I work for is a creationist.
not only is he catholic and extremely vocal about it, but he is also a racist jerk.
He goes around the hospital spitting his ridiculous views on things and punishing anyone who dare challenge him to any kind of discussion. It makes me insane. I'm very very liberal and agnostic and I very much believe in evolution (I do not understand how you could NOT to some extent) but I do not go around making sure everyone is aware of it. He despises me because unlike my coworkers, I don't put up with it.
My family is of Lebanese descent and so every time I tell him to knock it off, he reminds me that the only reason I am offended is because I am a "minority" and it is in my genes to be offended by anything a white christian man has to say.
He even refuses to help any clients who come to the clinic that do not speak english, he makes me deal with them since I speak some spanish from living in Los Angeles.
He also likes to come in with fragrant meat meals and wave them in my face intentionally.
He is a real piece of work.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Fee wrote:
gobigblue1982 wrote:
linanil wrote:
Also this thread blew up without me being around.

One thing I'd say is if there is a god, goddess, what not, I don't believe they would need our worship therefore worship doesn't make sense to me.


the word worship, much like the word slave means has a different meaning in relation to what we think of as the definition.

God creates us so that we (as eternal souls) will only find happiness and completion in loving relationship with Him. As Keller put it, there has been an eternal dance between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God created us to join in the dance... the eternal love relationship and community with Him. That is what worship means... not standing on a cloud and bowing down all day... again, i would recommend giving a few Christian books a shot. if for no other reason as to fully understand the belief system you oppose.

Start with Tim Keller, John Piper, C.S. Lewis...


I'm not sure why you assume everyone who is atheist or just doesn't believe in that particular god hasn't done research. I spent 18 years of my life as a practicing catholic, raised in a catholic family, going to a catholic school, going to mass on sundays, and taken a few theology classes in college. My parents, brother, grandparents, aunts, and uncles are all catholic. I'm not ignorant about Christianity.




with all due respect to Catholics (my parents are Episcopalian) I too grew up in a Catholic church and sadly I believe much of my flee from God for years was a reaction to my disconnect with their ritualistic brand of worship. I am not saying that path doesn't lead to God, I'm simply saying there are modern Churches modeled after the original Antioch Church (of Acts) in existence today. When I got into a Church like that (and spent years studying libraries of Christian history, apologetics, athiest arguments, etc) I truly had the "awakening" described so often God's word.

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete. 1 John 1:1-4


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:05 pm 
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The Tim Keller quote isn't a rebuttal of mumbles' point.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:07 pm 
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hailseitan wrote:
One of the doctors I work for is a creationist.
not only is he catholic and extremely vocal about it, but he is also a racist jerk.
He goes around the hospital spitting his ridiculous views on things and punishing anyone who dare challenge him to any kind of discussion. It makes me insane. I'm very very liberal and agnostic and I very much believe in evolution (I do not understand how you could NOT to some extent) but I do not go around making sure everyone is aware of it. He despises me because unlike my coworkers, I don't put up with it.
My family is of Lebanese descent and so every time I tell him to knock it off, he reminds me that the only reason I am offended is because I am a "minority" and it is in my genes to be offended by anything a white christian man has to say.
He even refuses to help any clients who come to the clinic that do not speak english, he makes me deal with them since I speak some spanish from living in Los Angeles.
He also likes to come in with fragrant meat meals and wave them in my face intentionally.
He is a real piece of work.


very sad that this person is 1 of the few creationists you know... i wish you could meet the community of Christians that I call brothers and sisters...


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
The Tim Keller quote isn't a rebuttal of mumbles' point.


God doesn't throw us into Hell... He lets us choose for ourselves... with Him or w/o Him?

We either say thy will be done or eventually God says thy will be done... nothing could be more fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:14 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
God doesn't throw us into Hell... He lets us choose for ourselves... with Him or w/o Him?

We either say thy will be done or eventually God says thy will be done... nothing could be more fair.


Really? You think that qualifies as any sort of fair choice? Follow me or be tortured for all eternity?

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:17 pm 
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Guys, don't take this the wrong way but I'm pretty happy to be going to hell with all of you. I've just always wanted to meet other vegans!

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:17 pm 
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If I'm a god in hell, does that make me Satan?

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:17 pm 
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mumbles wrote:
...but don't try to change any of the steps, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of suffering.


Keller wrote:
It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives.


So basically they both say the same thing. Follow God or be condemned to an eternity of suffering.

Ergo - your Tim Keller quote isn't a rebuttal of mumbles' point.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:25 pm 
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crowderpea wrote:
gobigblue1982 wrote:
God doesn't throw us into Hell... He lets us choose for ourselves... with Him or w/o Him?

We either say thy will be done or eventually God says thy will be done... nothing could be more fair.


Really? You think that qualifies as any sort of fair choice? Follow me or be tortured for all eternity?


God sounds worse than the TSA.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:30 pm 
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gobigblue1982 wrote:
hailseitan wrote:
One of the doctors I work for is a creationist.
not only is he catholic and extremely vocal about it, but he is also a racist jerk.
He goes around the hospital spitting his ridiculous views on things and punishing anyone who dare challenge him to any kind of discussion. It makes me insane. I'm very very liberal and agnostic and I very much believe in evolution (I do not understand how you could NOT to some extent) but I do not go around making sure everyone is aware of it. He despises me because unlike my coworkers, I don't put up with it.
My family is of Lebanese descent and so every time I tell him to knock it off, he reminds me that the only reason I am offended is because I am a "minority" and it is in my genes to be offended by anything a white christian man has to say.
He even refuses to help any clients who come to the clinic that do not speak english, he makes me deal with them since I speak some spanish from living in Los Angeles.
He also likes to come in with fragrant meat meals and wave them in my face intentionally.
He is a real piece of work.


very sad that this person is 1 of the few creationists you know... i wish you could meet the community of Christians that I call brothers and sisters...



Oh I have certainly met a lot of christians in my life. My grandfather is a lutheran minister and so the church I grew up in was very much an important part of my childhood. I knew that something did not feel right about my grandfather standing on that podium and telling people that unless they adopt this belief system that they would be damned to "hell", If there is a god, I am certain in my heart that s/he is a being that far transcends any form of ANY comprehension we may have. I live my life for ME. I try to be a good person and I do so for my own satisfaction, not for the satisfaction of some all knowing being.


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