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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:20 pm 
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amethyst wrote:
AutumnLeaves wrote:
I guess I'm the wild card. Here's my comments based on what I've read so far.
At the risk of everyone judging me...

-I'm a Christian.
-I'm probably like no Christian you've ever met, and I won't speak for/represent other people who say they are Christian.
-I HATE Glenn Beck and Fox News.
-I can't stand crazy "right wing" people who yell and scream about their beliefs.
-I have a scientific mind and I like to study about evolution.
-I have a Master's Degree
-I get annoyed with "stupid christians"
-I'm a creationist and a micro-evolutionist
-I don't care about arguing about which is true. HOW I got here is less important to me than what I DO with my life.

So here I am. A tree hugging, hippie Christian who is vegan, anti war, passionate about fair trade, and a political non conformist. I love science, but I won't take the supernatural out of the equation. I think the immeasurable is just as important as the empirical.

Okay. Feel free to judge me. I can take it.


No judgment here. While commenting on this thread, I had in mind a certain subset of fundamentalist Christians who don't want to make the effort to think for themselves or even learn anything unless it's in harmony with their literal interpretation of the Bible. I grew up in a religious family that tends to be on the conservative end of things and have run across more than my fair share of this sort of thought (or lack thereof), so it's all too easy for me to have certain knee-jerk reactions in discussions with a religious component. I also know there are fair-minded, intelligent Christians who are capable of critical thought and concerned about the world around them and how they can help make it a better place. If I did not make it clear that my comments were directed only at one particular branch of Christianity, I apologize for any offense or misunderstanding I caused, and I will be careful to make a clearer distinction in the future.

No offense taken at all. I am not easily offended, and I understand everyone's knee-jerk reaction to christians. I can't stand Christians either. Many don't even really know what they believe. They buy into this whole "Christian Culture" thing without a second thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:30 am 
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My grandparents and uncle are creationists. I'm not sure about my cousins. It makes for me wanting to smack them.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:29 pm 
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kfad wrote:
Shy Mox wrote:
But its too easy to disprove evolution!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCiStLKzivM

Have you ever seen snails try to escape from the wrath of an all loving god?


I quit listening after "Us true Christians don't care about facts.".
Because, really, isn't that why it is like talking to a tree?


I'm pretty sure this guy is a troll...some of his videos include "PROOF THAT GOD = FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER" and "PROOF THAT I MET JESUS!" but then again, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:31 pm 
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TheAmazonProject wrote:
kfad wrote:
Shy Mox wrote:
But its too easy to disprove evolution!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCiStLKzivM

Have you ever seen snails try to escape from the wrath of an all loving god?


I quit listening after "Us true Christians don't care about facts.".
Because, really, isn't that why it is like talking to a tree?


I'm pretty sure this guy is a troll...some of his videos include "PROOF THAT GOD = FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER" and "PROOF THAT I MET JESUS!" (complete with silly head photoshopping in a portrait of Jesus and someone else) but then again, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.


ETA: Some other examples: "I was beating my slaves the other day..." and "A haircut in the name of the Lard..."


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:05 am 
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I'd just like to add that somehow in my short education career I have had at least two creationist bio lab partners. Awful!

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:29 pm 
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I rarely get involved with any discussion of the validity of the theory of evolution or of creationism. Mostly because it is such an emotionally charged issue. I am, however, generally curious to hear the opinion of folks on the subject. I listen, without judgment, to see where they stand. Usually, they will state their opinion on the subject and throw in a few personal attacks on the opposition. The issue to them seems pretty black and white. You are either a genius or a fool.

Somewhere in the middle of the evolution vs creation argument you'll find those that believe in theistic evolution. Alfred Russel Wallace, who in a joint paper with Charles Darwin, proposed the theory of evolution by natural selection was a deist. Apparently, not too long ago, Gallup did a poll and found that 40% of scientists believed in god guided evolution. Of course the origins of the universe and life are not decided by poll. Ultimately, Truth is not a popularity contest.

In short, I think I could ride in a carpool with just about anyone and not get offended. I think people's differences are far more interesting than their similarities.

Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:26 pm 
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No matter what is true when it comes to evolution, there is no—and can be no—evidence for a deity-guided or -inspired evolution.

And when evidence pointing to a naturalistic evolution by means of natural selection can be refuted by saying, "It only looks natural," argument and debate are impossible.

And scientists believing things isn't what makes them true.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:56 pm 
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I guess I don't see much reason to remain impartial on the issue, anymore than I would on the issue of Obama's citizenship. Creationist arguments are roundly uninformed, and a God that is indistinguishable from no God at all isn't a very useful concept to introduce into matters of biology.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:25 pm 
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My problem with theistic evolution is that nature is full of hackneyed, inefficient solutions, examples of "bad design." I mean, what deity would create a mutation that confers resistance to malaria in some individuals (forget inventing malaria in the first place) but causes a debilitating, fatal disease in others? The deity of theistic evolution would be at best short sighted, if not a straight up mustard.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:50 pm 
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hoveringdog wrote:
My problem with theistic evolution is that nature is full of hackneyed, inefficient solutions, examples of "bad design."

I always figured God (or whatever) must be really bad at playing The Sims.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Gallup only polls people with landlines. Since more older conservatives and religious fundamentalists still have landlines, while more younger liberals and progressives have only cell phones, Gallup's polls are automatically skewed older and more conservative.

Evolution is not a matter of belief. It requires no leap of faith in an unseen being. Anyone who refuses to accept that evolution occurs is a wilfully ignorant clod.

One thing that really gets up my nose is that religious fundamentalists have managed to completely miss the fact that Darwin does not address how life began. Darwin addresses how species differentiated themselves from one another.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Lidwiz wrote:
Gallup only polls people with landlines. Since more older conservatives and religious fundamentalists still have landlines, while more younger liberals and progressives have only cell phones, Gallup's polls are automatically skewed older and more conservative


Gallup polls landlines and cellphones.http://www.gallup.com/poll/101872/How-does-Gallup-polling-work.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:59 am 
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kfad wrote:
This just baffles me. It feels like such intentional ignorance.


I know what you mean, and people always ask if I'm sure the kids weren't just messing with me. But these kids were not clever enough to pull off such a spontaneous utterance with such conviction. I remember the evolution of a character thing and it took me by such surprise that the kids laughed at my reaction because my face clearly read what the fizzle. And they laughed, but the student stayed indignant and insistent about it. She told me that people might grow, but they can't evolve.

Lixa wrote:
Oh this makes me want to punch walls.


Yeah, it took every ounce of self control to not talk down to this kid.

I heard the phrase "I ain't no monkey" more times than anyone should have to in her lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:15 am 
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LazySmurf wrote:
I read an article yesterday about these cognitive psychologists who found that when people believe something but have a sliver of doubt they are more likely to be really loud about it and try and convince other's of their belief http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2010/10/19/when-in-doubt-shout-%E2%80%93-why-shaking-someone%E2%80%99s-beliefs-turns-them-into-stronger-advocates/


Kind of like those obnoxious omnivores who attack you for no other reason than being vegan... hmm....

FootFace wrote:
Imitation Of Chris wrote:
Glenn Beck came out as a creationist today on his radio show. He's "never seen a half-monkey/ half-man."


Half-monkey/half-man, heal thyself.

Kind of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:34 am 
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Don Alejandro wrote:
Apparently, not too long ago, Gallup did a poll and found that 40% of scientists believed in god guided evolution.


That seems quite unlikely to me, but I'd be interested to see the context of that poll.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:19 am 
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Ruby Rose wrote:
Don Alejandro wrote:
Apparently, not too long ago, Gallup did a poll and found that 40% of scientists believed in god guided evolution.


That seems quite unlikely to me, but I'd be interested to see the context of that poll.


I'll have to search around more later, but as I recall, it included a broad selection of scientific disciplines including mathematicians and engineers. Polls more specifically of biologists have yielded a much lower number.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:37 am 
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Don Alejandro wrote:
Apparently, not too long ago, Gallup did a poll and found that 40% of scientists believed in god guided evolution.


Do you have a source for this? The closest thing I can find was this:

"Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent. "


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:58 am 
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AutumnLeaves wrote:
I guess I'm the wild card. Here's my comments based on what I've read so far.
At the risk of everyone judging me...

-I'm a Christian.
-I'm probably like no Christian you've ever met, and I won't speak for/represent other people who say they are Christian.
-I HATE Glenn Beck and Fox News.
-I can't stand crazy "right wing" people who yell and scream about their beliefs.
-I have a scientific mind and I like to study about evolution.
-I have a Master's Degree
-I get annoyed with "stupid christians"
-I'm a creationist and a micro-evolutionist
-I don't care about arguing about which is true. HOW I got here is less important to me than what I DO with my life.

So here I am. A tree hugging, hippie Christian who is vegan, anti war, passionate about fair trade, and a political non conformist. I love science, but I won't take the supernatural out of the equation. I think the immeasurable is just as important as the empirical.

Okay. Feel free to judge me. I can take it.


Okay. A little odd, but who wants vegans to all be the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:21 am 
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Hapax Legomenon wrote:
hoveringdog wrote:
My problem with theistic evolution is that nature is full of hackneyed, inefficient solutions, examples of "bad design."

I always figured God (or whatever) must be really bad at playing The Sims.


I'm sure its the real life equivalent of removing the ladder while we're in the pool.

I always said that if I was God, I'd be a crasshole too.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:01 am 
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AutumnLeaves wrote:
Fee wrote:
They only believe in micro-evolution, but not macro evolution


I consider something like wolf evolving into a dog as micro, because it can happen in just a few generations.

edited to add That's the funniest thing EVER re:ijustdiedinside's post about the guy who thinks black people are more closely related to monkeys because they're brown.

Why do you believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution? If the mechanism (process may be a better word) is essentially the same, how do you differentiate?

And how do you sustain your non-belief in evolution in the face of evidence like that posted by h-dog?

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:02 am 
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Hapax Legomenon wrote:
hoveringdog wrote:
My problem with theistic evolution is that nature is full of hackneyed, inefficient solutions, examples of "bad design."

I always figured God (or whatever) must be really bad at playing The Sims.

Sigged!

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:36 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
hoveringdog wrote:
My problem with theistic evolution is that nature is full of hackneyed, inefficient solutions, examples of "bad design."

I always figured God (or whatever) must be really bad at playing The Sims.

Sigged!

You just popped my sigged cherry! Yay!

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Hapax Legomenon wrote:
j-dub wrote:
Hapax Legomenon wrote:
I always figured God (or whatever) must be really bad at playing The Sims.

Sigged!

You just popped my sigged cherry! Yay!

I, um...oh my.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Your regular old, run-of-the-mill creationist is one thing; it's the young earth creationists that really make me want to jump off a bridge.
One entire half of my family is full of young earth creationist, tea-bagging, F150-driving Texans who hate all brown people and anyone living in a city larger than 200,000 people. A number of people have told me that these kind of loonies are actually quite rare and give Christians a bad name, but I don't buy it. I meet people like this all the time, and I live in the Bay Area, supposed New Sodom. Furthermore, none of the Christians I know are doing anything to temper the fundamentalism and loonitude in their communities, so my sympathy for their alleged mis-characterization is rather limited.

Hurrumph.

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 Post subject: Re: Creationism Carpool
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:37 pm 
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handan wrote:
One day I want to go to the working farm dinosaur museum I saw on TV once. I don't think I'll ever make it that far though. It'd be funny.


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