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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:57 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Tofulish wrote:
I googled (cuz j-dub said to, and she has never steered me wrong). Here is something Dan said in June 2011. Bisexuals you need to come out now! Victim blaming flicks the weasel.


And to Mox's point:

Quote:
But you are right about one thing Savage, you do represent the LGBTQ community. In fact, you personify everything that is the LGBTQ community. Because one would be a fool to think you are the only one with this forked up mindset. In fact, this is why I always state that while I'll advocate for queer rights, I've got no use for the LGBTQ community. Because otherwise, the LGBTQ community would've marched and protested against you the way they attacked black folks during the Prop 8 fallout, even though white people were the reason for Prop 8 passing. But no, all we'll get is excuses and hemming and hawwing and defenses about how speshul Savage's asparagus is.

I mean what the hell else does this guy have to do to prove what a piece of shiitake he is? But of course he's enabled because he knows he can get away with it. Trust, this is some white privilege through and through. Because let POC, specifically a black man, spew a portion of the bile Savage has spewed and they would've been lynched by white folks queer and straight alike.

And this is the crasshole, we're supposed to entrust with at-risk suicidal youth? REALLY? REALLY?

Yeah ask me again why it doesn't get better.

http://neo-prodigy.livejournal.com/965724.html

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:48 pm 
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i can see both sides of the argument, but it just seems to me that savage is, perhaps not-so-carefully or eloquently, trying to aid the bisexual community. but that's just my opinion on the matter and i don't want to get into a ppk argument about it. sorry. i hope y'all won't hate me.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:56 am 
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No-pants hermit 4 lyfe
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Shy Mox wrote:
j-dub wrote:
Why does it make more sense to assume that a large number of people* are "hearing what they want to hear" than that there are places where he has blindspots and bigoted opinions?

*Google Dan Savage and biphobia or fatphobia or misogyny.


Sometimes I feel like society is accepting its not okay to be homophobic towards cis white gay men, but transphobia, biphobia, fatphobia and misogyny are just honest mistakes and forgivable "blind spots" rather than hatred and bigotry.


when i said "blind spot," i meant a way in which savage (or whoever) somehow fails to recognize his own bigotry with regard to certain things despite having a heightened sensitivity to it in other, perhaps very similar areas. i don't think it isn't bigotry, necessarily, and i don't think it's "forgivable" without caveats or serious consideration of the context, but i think sometimes people really don't understand that things they've said are awful (i know, it seems impossible, but sometimes they really don't hear it!), and i will usually try to give a person the benefit of the doubt before i condemn various statements as black-and-white hatespeak. honestly, i know very little about dan savage and have heard him speak on maybe five occasions, including in the video in the original post, but on those occasions he seemed like not a huge crasshole. i did read that "bisexuals come out" piece that tofulish links to above, and i see why everyone who is offended is offended, but i also think it might easily be a case of foot-in-mouth or of savage trying to extend his own experience about being closeted versus not in a way that doesn't work, given how deeply personal that decision always is. the idea that no one can begin to accept you as the person you are if you are hiding your identity or if you don't seem to view it as acceptable yourself is not crazy or unfair to me per se. i don't see hatred there. i think he's being narrow and self-referential, but i think he probably thought he was saying "be who you are and be proud of it, the end." if we could shine a light on some hypocrisy and maybe convince him to approach things differently, super; i'd like to try to do that before i disregard him. i hope anyone i offended would point it out to me clearly rather than choose to never speak to me again, because i'm almost never trying to offend, but i'm often an artless bull in a conversational china shop. i want to be good, though, and i'll try hard when i know an effort needs to be made. if people have been trying to do that for ages with savage and he isn't learning or making an effort and i just don't know anything about it, well, that's a different thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:31 pm 
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But people have been responding to Savage re: biphobia and fatphobia for years and he doesn't change. And the thing is, it isn't actually the job of marginalized folks to teach those in the power majority (and while he is gay he is most certainly in the power majority) how not to be crassholes.

And I'm unclear on why someone who is saying bigoted things and furthering bigoted ideas can't then be classified as espousing bigotry. He has told people who identify as bisexual for years that they are wrong/don't exist/are lying to themselves. Ergo, he is bigoted towards bisexuals. He has said really shitty, hateful things about fat people for years. Ergo, he is bigoted toward fat folks. I feel like we can celebrate the good he has done while simultaneously expecting better from him.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:05 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
But people have been responding to Savage re: biphobia and fatphobia for years and he doesn't change.


acr wrote:
if people have been trying to do that for ages with savage and he isn't learning or making an effort and i just don't know anything about it, well, that's a different thing.


j-dub wrote:
And the thing is, it isn't actually the job of marginalized folks to teach those in the power majority (and while he is gay he is most certainly in the power majority) how not to be crassholes.


maybe not, but i think it is an offended individual's job to point out the offending act. if someone hurts my feelings and i never address it, i think i have to accept partial responsibility if that event is repeated, because maybe i could have intervened and everything could have been cleared up. maybe that person should have known better, or actually does know better, but i can't always assume that. if no one challenges the majority, no one has the right to complain about the fact that nothing is changing. you're saying that with savage it's been addressed and addressed and addressed some more with no change, but other people say they have noticed progress. i'm saying i've reviewed limited data, and i'll do additional legwork, but he doesn't seem like a lost cause to me at the moment. sometimes the evolution is painfully slow, but i'll continue to encourage it until--well, forever.

j-dub wrote:
And I'm unclear on why someone who is saying bigoted things and furthering bigoted ideas can't then be classified as espousing bigotry.


acr wrote:
i don't think it isn't bigotry, necessarily


context and intention are tremendously important. i guess i was talking more generally about people who say things thoughtlessly but without malice, and i guess i was thinking specifically about things i've heard people in my own life say that shocked me but turned out to have no genuinely negative feelings behind them (but you wouldn't have known that). again, you have to point it out and start a dialogue, and maybe, yes, kind of teach someone how to stop being a crasshole, if that person didn't realize that that is what he or she was being. this is not a savage-specific point.

j-dub wrote:
I feel like we can celebrate the good he has done while simultaneously expecting better from him.


agreed!

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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acr wrote:
maybe not, but i think it is an offended individual's job to point out the offending act. if someone hurts my feelings and i never address it, i think i have to accept partial responsibility if that event is repeated, because maybe i could have intervened and everything could have been cleared up. maybe that person should have known better, or actually does know better, but i can't always assume that. if no one challenges the majority, no one has the right to complain about the fact that nothing is changing. you're saying that with savage it's been addressed and addressed and addressed some more with no change, but other people say they have noticed progress. i'm saying i've reviewed limited data, and i'll do additional legwork, but he doesn't seem like a lost cause to me at the moment. sometimes the evolution is painfully slow, but i'll continue to encourage it until--well, forever.


I couldn't disagree more. It is not the job of the oppressed to "educate" the oppressor, especially when oppressors make it insanely clear that they don't give two shiitakes. Or like Savage say "okay, I'm sorry, but its actually all your fault because bisexual people suck" like he did in his fauxpology.

Oppressed persons can be assaulted and murdered for speaking out. While I doubt in this particular case I'd be murdered for criticizing Savage, I have been frequently excluded and discriminated against in the LGBT community to the point where I internalized it all, never felt welcomed and went back in the closet because I wasn't good enough for straight people and I sure as hell wasn't good enough for queer people. The oppressed are not responsible for the actions of the oppressor in any capacity. If you'e a crasshole like Savage who uses slurs with no regard to how many times trans people have asked him not to, have repeatedly erased the identities of bisexuals and denied their rightful place in the LGBT movement, what the hell are we supposed to do? He doesn't listen to us, he just acts like we are super sensitive and he's actually the Christ of the movement. He might change his behavior just a bit like including a token bisexual friend (I can't be biphobic, some of my best friends are bisexual!) or suddenly deny that he ever said bisexual men do not exist (like he did in the documentary Bi The Way, quoting a flawed study that later was redone and proved hey, bisexual men exist).


acr wrote:

context and intention are tremendously important. i guess i was talking more generally about people who say things thoughtlessly but without malice, and i guess i was thinking specifically about things i've heard people in my own life say that shocked me but turned out to have no genuinely negative feelings behind them (but you wouldn't have known that). again, you have to point it out and start a dialogue, and maybe, yes, kind of teach someone how to stop being a crasshole, if that person didn't realize that that is what he or she was being. this is not a savage-specific point.



He realizes it, he just doesn't want to give up his privilege. He's malicious, he mocks us and denies us any kind of real apology or change in behavior. Its bigotry, pure and simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:43 pm 
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i hate that those things happened to you, Shy Mox; i hate that they happen at all. in high school i saw close friends driven nearly to suicide because their peers or their family rejected them because of their sexuality, so i'm aware of that kind of persecution (i won't claim to understand it, because it wasn't directed at me). but i stood up for those friends, publicly, always. i am not saying that everyone can or should do that; there are absolutely circumstances that preclude it because of very real dangers. but up to this point i had been talking about disagreeing with a minor celebrity or with people who say stupid things in conversation, and i think in those situations, if someone in my position disagrees but bites her tongue, she's really letting herself and a lot of other people down. now i am saying that if i had witnessed the sort of bullying and discrimination you were subjected to and done nothing, i would feel responsible for enabling your victimization and oppression. i would feel guilty. i've been bullied and seriously threatened by members of my own family, and i've witnessed a lot of violent abuse, and while i never felt that i or any other person on the receiving end was responsible for what was happening, nothing has made me feel like more of a failure as a human being than trying to back away from it or avoid getting involved. someone has to challenge unacceptable behavior. does it have to be the victim? no. but if everybody says "it shouldn't be my job," that victim doesn't stand a chance. i don't understand why anyone would tell me that it's wrong when i say i feel obligated to stand up to oppression.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Savage has the NOM guy over for dinner and debate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:01 am 
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Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
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It depends on what it is. It can be very dangerous for queer or trans* people to stand up, this is where allies come in. Allies at least have privilege to protect themselves. But some people just do not get it. Whenever someone says something racist around my boyfriend I try to collect my garbage so he doesn't have to take the time to try and educate someone, but a lot of people just aren't willing to hear it and you repeat yourself over and over and over in different ways, but most people just want to turn the other way and keep their privilege. Savage is like that too (and he can be pretty racist, he thinks homophobic black people are the biggest enemy black people face, far more than racism.), he's mostly interest in getting white cis gay men the same amount of privilege other white gay men have, and throw the rest of us under the bus. Its not really a minor celebrity thing when he's a sex columnist that a lot of people turn to for education, in this way he's an educator and its extremely dangerous for him to be spouting harmful things about other sexual or gender minorities.

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