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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:51 pm 
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There was an article on slate suggesting all the results of the tour from those years should be invalidated, doping was so rampant.
It's like the women's track records from the 80s and 90s, no one can beat them now and it's unfair to todays athletes.
Just void everything and start over.
This does seem to be a case where collective punishment seems more fair--whatever he did, he didn't do alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:52 pm 
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If he had been doping, and knew there was a chance of it eventually coming out, is it likely he'd have even fought it as long as he did? That's obviously just speculation, but to me this seems more like someone finally giving up, than finally on the verge of being caught. But maybe I haven't understood the legal side of it. And that's not to say I'm sure he never took anything. I feel largely inclined to believe him, and yet somewhat inclined to believe that there's something, somewhere, in his history, since it seems so common. But at any rate, I dislike the zeal with which he's been pursued.

In summary: I dunno.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:22 pm 
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For what it's worth, the editor of Bicycling (magazine) has gone on record as saying that until last year, he thought there a possibility that the charges were false. Last year, however, he received information that changed his mind, and now is absolutely certain that Lance Armstrong was doping.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Ah. That's exactly the sort of thing I wondered about. Armstrong's presenting it as weariness after years of fighting, whereas it might be more that things finally came to the crunch.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:25 am 
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I'm way more bummed about this whole thing than I should be for someone who doesn't care about tour de France.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:08 pm 
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We don't yet have the facts to determine if this was a witch hunt or justice.

While Armstrong is not proceeding to arbitration with the USADA, this case will continue to work its way through cycling's international sports governing organizations. This process will likely result in the release of more relevant information. Right now all we're getting is 'spin' from the parties involved in the dispute.

The USADA has to come to an agreement with the International Cycling Federation about jurisdiction. And the French organization that administers the Tour de France will not issue comment until they have hearings with both the USADA and International Cycling Federation.

Armstrong's lawyers will continue to monitor the proceedings and then comment publicly on behalf of their client.

I think the facts will eventually come out - what ever they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:07 am 
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Why not just allow everything? It's the only way to ensure people aren't slipping past the rules. It's not like these drugs do the training for you, it just increases stamina/reduces fatigue. Not only that, these drugs are immensely useful for athletes coming off of injury.

Also, I think most people will agree that some people will be born with more physical potential than others for various reasons, so why not allow some people to use whatever they want to even the playing field.

Take baseball - the human body isn't built to have someone throw a baseball 80-100 times a game at 80-100mph for 36 games in an 6? month period. As long as we demand that of them it's only fair to give them access to tools that help.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:36 am 
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Because they're really dangerous to abuse?

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:40 am 
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And because steroids etc quickly move from professional athletics to college and then school athletics programs.

I was reading Steroid Nation, which tracked the progression and it was pretty scary to realize how much pressure high school athletes are under to use steroids to perform well (as well as the "other guy" who is using) to get a college scholarship. And then once in college to keep their scholarship and get recruited to a good team to make money etc etc etc.

All while consuming products that may give them cancer and otherwise shorten their lifespans and affect their emotional and physical wellbeing in the interim.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:06 am 
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Fee wrote:
Because they're really dangerous to abuse?


So are tons of prescription and over the counter drugs, they aren't unilaterally banned, same with other drugs like alcohol, which is admittedly in a separate category. Also, the banned ones by sports organizations aren't always banned for safety reasons, like human growth hormone, which is prescribed by MDs.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:13 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
And because steroids etc quickly move from professional athletics to college and then school athletics programs.

I was reading Steroid Nation, which tracked the progression and it was pretty scary to realize how much pressure high school athletes are under to use steroids to perform well (as well as the "other guy" who is using) to get a college scholarship. And then once in college to keep their scholarship and get recruited to a good team to make money etc etc etc.

All while consuming products that may give them cancer and otherwise shorten their lifespans and affect their emotional and physical wellbeing in the interim.


Here is a good npr article with audio on a debate about the acceptance of "performance enhancing drugs" in sport

http://www.npr.org/2008/01/23/18299098/ ... -in-sports


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:18 am 
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But it won't even the playing field. It'll just make it that much more unfair to those who don't want to poison their bodies for the sake or sport, or want to perform to the best of their natural abilities without enhancement. Those folk still exist, and people who dope now when it's not allowed make it unfair to those playing clean. Openly allowing doping will just drive those people out completely.

Plus, do you really think it'll only be the people who don't have as much natural physical potential who will be taking this, thus leveling the playing field? No, even the top performers will.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:30 am 
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lepelaar wrote:
Plus, do you really think it'll only be the people who don't have as much natural physical potential who will be taking this, thus leveling the playing field? No, even the top performers will.


Yea, I already wanted to take back that part, everyone would still take them.

I still think the banning of certain substances by sport is entirely paternalistic and isn't consistent. Why does the NFL suspend athletes for using marijuana, it's probably not performance enhancing, but it is illegal, is it that bad if youth smoke use it? They are a non governmental organization, is that their job?

Why do USADA allow athletes to use alcohol and not test for it, it's also not performance enhancing, and is illegal for all youths to purchase. I'm sure statistics say it is significantly more dangerous than anabolic steroids, to both athletes and especially people around them.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:40 am 
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Apparently live strong got a huge windfall of donations when he announced he was giving up the fight, to the tune of $75000 (20x what they took in on Thursday).

It is on the philanthropy.com website homepage. I just can't copy the link from my iPhone.

Personally, my guess is he did it or he would have kept fighting, but who knows. If he did I think it is fair to take his titles because it was still cheating. Doesn't make it any better to say everyone else was too.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:50 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
I
FWIW, Marion Jones never tested positive either, did she?

To my knowledge what got Marion Jones were the files from Balco. The reason she and many others didn't test positive is because the tests were years behind what Balco was manufacturing. That's why an old sample that didn't test positive before might test positive now. The drug tests are more sophisticated and will pick the drugs up. She's also a great example of how much a person will lie about it. She denied for years that she took anything and the files implicated her back to at least 2000.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:11 am 
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But they have recently retested Armstrong, haven't they?

I saw that a number of medals from Athens were revoked this month as testing caught up.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:42 pm 
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this covers a number of points raised above. inevitably also raises new ones. lengthy but worthwhile...

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08 ... s-and.html


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Thanks for posting that!

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:09 pm 
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joshua wrote:
GraciaKai wrote:
lavawitch wrote:
I have trouble with the idea that someone who triumphed over cancer would knowingly put dangerous substances into their body.

This!
...(arguably the substances he's alleged to have used aren't all that dangerous either.. but that's moot)...

especially with HGH. that's a death warrant for someone who beat cancer. (especially in a part of his body that's susceptible to hormones)

Tofulish wrote:
So even if he did take steroids, he still doesn't deserve to be held to a different standard from other athletes.

i didn't think they were claiming he took steroids. that kinda changes the story. at least with doping, it's pretty easy to hide it since all of the substances are naturally in the human body to begin with.

i'm curious. how far in advance of a race are the blood tests taken? and then how far in advance do the doping substances need to be taken? (i'd think the substances could [or would need to be] be taken less than 24 hours prior to a race. i'd assume they dissipate pretty quickly once in the bloodstream.) i wonder if all of this could be fixed if the blood was taken the morning of the race. the tests can be run during the race, (and i suppose during the week following), and they can disqualify someone if they find them to have doped. or i guess they can store everyone's blood until after the race is over and then they can start testing only the top winners' blood. (i also wonder if they could take blood after a race, or if they already do.)

if the tests are done days ahead of time, the riders are probably strategic about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:09 pm 
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The article stranger posted above goes into detail about when testing is done and how it's been changing.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:20 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
But they have recently retested Armstrong, haven't they?


That, yes, and if I recall correctly, they still have his blood samples from years ago (although chain of evidence might be a problem were they to retest.)


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:27 am 
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pandacookie wrote:
The article stranger posted above goes into detail about when testing is done and how it's been changing.

that answered all of my questions. thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:35 pm 
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the whole thing just makes me sad. this is either a tragic story of a hero who is being repeatedly wrongfully accused of something he hasn't done, or a really disappointing story of someone everyone thought was a hero, but he lied a billion times over many years. it sucks either way, and as a really big fan, i'm so bummed. i hate having to feel cynical, and i want to believe in him. sad sad sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I'm with GOBS. Here's a good veganfitness thread on the subject -
http://www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=24429

The only argument I see against allowing doping outright is that it would encourage teens to start taking potentially dangerous substances, but that already happens anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong to lose Tour Titles: Justice or Witch H
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:59 pm 
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vegimator wrote:
The only argument I see against allowing doping outright is that it would encourage teens to start taking potentially dangerous substances, but that already happens anyway.

that, and not everyone wants to take them. it'd be soul crushing, and some cyclists would inevitably just not ride at all if there's sanctioned unfairness.

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